I don't mean to say that adding to your melee defense is weak, but that a talent that replaces any Defensive quality on your weapon is kind of weak, especially given that we have both the Curved Hilt and Loridan Crystal, which would be fairly popular for certain types of characters, but totally unattractive if you've picked up ranks in Defensive Training. In the reverse, if you have ranks in DT and later acquire one or the other (or both) of the lightsaber parts, you've now wasted a bunch of XP potentially.

Thoughts?

Well, the only specializations that offer that talent are based around using a lightsaber over other weapons, and a lightsaber only gains Defensive if you use a specific focusing crystal (Lorrdian Gemstone)

I think in most cases, the PC can easily choose to use a different crystal.

I'd be very leery of letting the two stack, as that could lead to a lots of ranks of Defensive, making the character a lot harder to strike in melee combat, particularly for Niman Disciple which offers two ranks of the Defensive Training talent.

Well, the only specializations that offer that talent are based around using a lightsaber over other weapons, and a lightsaber only gains Defensive if you use a specific focusing crystal (Lorrdian Gemstone)

I think in most cases, the PC can easily choose to use a different crystal.

I'd be very leery of letting the two stack, as that could lead to a lots of ranks of Defensive, making the character a lot harder to strike in melee combat, particularly for Niman Disciple which offers two ranks of the Defensive Training talent.

Don't forget the Curved Hilt (1 Defensive +1 mod), which is iconic for Count Dooku, who is also the posterboy for Makashi (1 rank of Defensive Training). Admittedly it's a mod vs. a talent, rather than an item vs. a talent, but it still seems odd that the two wouldn't work together since they are paired in the films.

It's too easy to stack up Defense as it is between mods, armor, talents, Force powers, half dozen or more on a roll is completely feasible as is.

Question. Would duel wielding lightsabers while having a rank in Defensive Training cause you to gain +2 Defense? 1 for each lightsaber?

It's too easy to stack up Defense as it is between mods, armor, talents, Force powers, half dozen or more on a roll is completely feasible as is.

Then perhaps either the Loridan Crystal should get tweaked, or the Defensive Training talent.

For the crystal, I'd consider adding a mod that offers some other benefit (yeah, I know that the Reflective portion of the crystal is going to stack).

I don't understand why Defensive Training and Curved Hilt / Lordian Crystal don't stack ?

I don't understand why Defensive Training and Curved Hilt / Lordian Crystal don't stack ?

Probably to try to avoid defense inflation. There are a good number of ways to get defense, so it makes sense they can't ALL stack.

As it stands both Defensive Training and Duelist Training are not just subpar, but under performers.

Defensive Training completely negates several mods, and the other will add a setback die far too often to be balanced.

Maybe the wording is weird...

Let's see Defensive Training ; it says "the weapons gains Defensive X..."

So if your weapon already has Defensive Y, you choose the best of the 2 options...

Let's see Curved Hilt ; it says "1 item quality (Defensive +1) Mod".

So what ever your Defensive is, you add +1 to it.

Let's see Lorrdian Gemstone ; it says "gains the Breach 1, Defensive 1, and Sunder weapon qualities.... 1 item quality (Defensive +1) Mod".

So you weapon has base of Defensive 1 and a Mod of +1 to Defensive quality.

Now I've gotten back in the Rulebook to make sure I'm not saying non-sense... but to my understanding, Defensive Training would stack with the Mods, but not the base Quality since it's not +1. So a Nimam Disciple with 2 ranks in Defensive Training wielding a Curved Hilt Lorrdian Gemstone Lightsaber would have 4 ranks of Defensive ; without the talents, he'd only have 3 ranks of Defensive.

Ok... but what if he had 2?

Question. Would duel wielding lightsabers while having a rank in Defensive Training cause you to gain +2 Defense? 1 for each lightsaber?

I'd say no, for the same reason that I wouldn't let a character get +2 melee defense while wielding two vibroswords. In both cases, the bonus to melee defense is coming from the same source (the Defensive trait), and thus shouldn't stack.

Maybe the wording is weird...

Let's see Defensive Training ; it says "the weapons gains Defensive X..."

So if your weapon already has Defensive Y, you choose the best of the 2 options...

Let's see Curved Hilt ; it says "1 item quality (Defensive +1) Mod".

So what ever your Defensive is, you add +1 to it.

Let's see Lorrdian Gemstone ; it says "gains the Breach 1, Defensive 1, and Sunder weapon qualities.... 1 item quality (Defensive +1) Mod".

So you weapon has base of Defensive 1 and a Mod of +1 to Defensive quality.

Now I've gotten back in the Rulebook to make sure I'm not saying non-sense... but to my understanding, Defensive Training would stack with the Mods, but not the base Quality since it's not +1. So a Nimam Disciple with 2 ranks in Defensive Training wielding a Curved Hilt Lorrdian Gemstone Lightsaber would have 4 ranks of Defensive ; without the talents, he'd only have 3 ranks of Defensive.

In the case of the curved hilt, from my understanding of the rules, if an attachment or modification provides a weapon quality that the weapon didn't have already, then it'd translate more as "Weapon Quality 1" not "Weapon Quality +1."

So if a character modified a curved hilt to a lightsaber that used an Ilum crystal, then they'd have Defensive 1, since the lightsaber doesn't normally have the Defensive quality.

In regards to the Defensive Training talent, 2P51 has an excellent point in that it's already quite easy to stack bonuses to melee defense, particularly thanks to the curved hilt and Lorrdian gemstone, enabling a potential three ranks of Defensive. Add in armored clothing or armored robes, and that's 4 setback dice to every melee attack directed at the character, which goes against the design intent of trying to keep the dice pools to a reasonable size vs. the HERO/Shadowrun "huge handfuls of dice" syndrome.

For the talent, perhaps instead of adding to the character's melee defense, it instead operates similar to the Unrelenting Skeptic talent, in that it adds one automatic Threat to the opponent's attack roll, with each rank past the first adding another automatic Threat to the opponent's attack roll.

For the talent, perhaps instead of adding to the character's melee defense, it instead operates similar to the Unrelenting Skeptic talent, in that it adds one automatic Threat to the opponent's attack roll, with each rank past the first adding another automatic Threat to the opponent's attack roll.

That would be huge for Improved Parry/Reflect.

For the talent, perhaps instead of adding to the character's melee defense, it instead operates similar to the Unrelenting Skeptic talent, in that it adds one automatic Threat to the opponent's attack roll, with each rank past the first adding another automatic Threat to the opponent's attack roll.

That would be huge for Improved Parry/Reflect.

Good point. I was initially going to go with adding an automatic failure, but that seemed way too good, especially since Defensive Training can be picked up super cheap in several specs

Perhaps revise it to a single Threat, but only usable once per encounter, with each additional rank adding another use of the talent in the encounter.

I do think that they intentionally left things a little weaker than it will end up being in the release version. Working with video games it's always easier from a community and marketing point of view to "buff" than to "nerf".

I do think that they intentionally left things a little weaker than it will end up being in the release version. Working with video games it's always easier from a community and marketing point of view to "buff" than to "nerf".

Very true. If nothing else, it cuts down on the whine factor when they do make changes to the material, as most players are happier to see their characters get a buff than a de-power.

I do think that they intentionally left things a little weaker than it will end up being in the release version. Working with video games it's always easier from a community and marketing point of view to "buff" than to "nerf".

Very true. If nothing else, it cuts down on the whine factor when they do make changes to the material, as most players are happier to see their characters get a buff than a de-power.

That's what I meant

Personally I'd rather Defensive Training just read:

"When the character wields a Lightsaber weapon, Melee weapon, or Brawl weapon, that weapon gains ranks in the Defensive item quality equal to the character’s ranks in Defensive Training , if the weapon already has a Defensive quality the character may chose which is used."

Instead of "(this replaces any ranks in Defensive the weapon already has)."

This makes it useful to both types of Saber Swingers; the ones that go mod crazy (they can still slap a Def 1 on any melee/brawl weapon they pick up) and to the ones that don't have a Def 3 Lorrdian Crystalled, Curved Hilted saber.

For the talent, perhaps instead of adding to the character's melee defense, it instead operates similar to the Unrelenting Skeptic talent, in that it adds one automatic Threat to the opponent's attack roll, with each rank past the first adding another automatic Threat to the opponent's attack roll.

This is a great idea... It is especially usefull for Improved Reflect or Improved Parry where more treat equals more returned shots. Unfortunately, Niman doesn't have either and it's the Form with 2 ranks of it

I've come to the decision that Defensive Training isn't weak, it's that 3 of the 4 tress it shows up in only have access to it once that's weak. If each tree had two points of access (and could skip around them if they wanted) it would settle in fine.

Also, it should probably be limited to only being taken 2 or three times at that point...

Not to beat a dead horse...

But while looking at the rules and Beta book, I've come to wonder a few things...

Like I said in a previous post, you can't stack "Armored Clothing" with cover, or with "Defensive Training", or with "Loordian Gemstone"... so the maximum possible defense available is curved hilt Loordian gemstone Lightsaber, for a total of 3 Defensive and 2 Reflection, stacked with the talents "Sixth Sense" and "Superior Reflexes", its a total of 4 Melee Defense and 3 Ranged Defense. You can never get, like 2P51 said, half a dozen...

The problem I see with "Defensive Training" is that its bonus can be replaced by gear.... There is no gear available to do the same thing as the talents "Dodge", "Sidestep" or "Defensive Stance"... Those talents upgrades the difficulty check, and they even stack, so if you're already using Sidestep, you can always call a Dodge on top of it....

While DT only add Defensive equal to ranks to your Lightsaber... it can't stack with cover or gear... So i've got plenty of different choices to replace Defensive Training free of any XP cost... Armored Robes give Defense 1, so both Range and Melee... Loordian Gemstone with curved hilt for a total of 3melee/2range...

The best suggestion I read was to have Defensive Training give a bonus to both Defensive and Reflection.

You could also make Defensive Training upgrade melee attacks against character while wielding a LS... so it's like Defensive Stance, but with a LS at no strain cost.... but this might be too strong...

What do you guys think ?

In my home game Defensive Training adds to both Defense and Reflection and stacks with other defensive bonuses.

what if they added threat or failures to specific types of attacks. IE gives 1 threat to melee/lightsaber attacks. Or the same to ranged. Or a mix, on rank 1 1 automatic failure at rank 2 1 automatic failure 1 automatic threat and have it only allow 2 ranks. so after 2 ranks in it they any further get treated like non ranked talents.