obi-wan is worse than palpatine

That's not a high bar. Palpatine is awesome. He destroyed the Republic and the Jedi. What's not too love? (I'm being serious).

We know you're serious, but that's because you're deep in the grip of self-justifying Mandalorian partisanship.

Palpatine was the primary party responsible for the worst excesses of both the Republic and the Jedi. Lauding him for the eventual destruction (well, we'll round up with respect to the Jedi) of things he actively worked for his entire lifetime to make contemptible is incoherent.

Like Punning Pundit said, he did not create them. He magnified them.

'From my perspective Jedi are evil!'

-Darth Vader

You either serve the Force or have the Force serve you.

You all are over complicating this when it is really simple. Ben dies in front of Luke but Biggs was behind him. Luke only pays attention to what is on front of him. Yoda points out the flaw later.

Sociopaths don't feel things the way normal people do. You can hardly expect normal behavior from the Butcher of Yavin...

or from cult members...

This pretty much sums it up... Biggs isn't even on the list lol.

Of course, you shouldn't expect anymore from a Jetii.

Obi-Wan was a liar, anyways ...

Sociopaths don't feel things the way normal people do. You can hardly expect normal behavior from the Butcher of Yavin...

This. This a million times (lives?).

The fact that a pair of Jedi can walk into a quiet bar, lop someone's arm off, and expect the bar to accept "Jedi business" as a reasonable explanation... That's a problem.

It's not entirely clear whether it's acceptable because it's Jedi business or because, in the Westerns Lucas was cribbing from just as much as he was from Kurosawa, the sudden eruption of violence at the seedy cantina isn't a surprise--and getting interested in it is potentially an invitation for more of the same.

After all, the outcome of Han's encounter with Greedo isn't "Jedi business" at all, but it doesn't seem to attract much more attention or concern.

That's the problem that makes Palpatine's framing the Jedi for an attempted coup seem utterly plausible. That's the sort of problem for which Order 66 is a reasonable solution.

The Jedi may think of themselves as guardians of peace and justice, but I'm not sure anyone else thought of them that way. Terrifying magic beings accountable only to their own consciousness are not a comfort to most people.

I think the entire point of pushing the Jedi into prosecuting the Republic's side of the Clone Wars was part of a calculated part to make it plausible--to change the galaxy's perception of them into "terrifying magic beings accountable only to their own consciences".

Consider what would have happened if the Jedi were indeed not considered guardians of peace and justice not only in their own eyes but in the eyes of the galaxy as a whole. In that case, the conditions for Order 66 would arguably already have existed without Sith intervention: if the power of the Jedi were typically perceived as a terrifying justification for their interference in galactic politics, it would take essentially no effort at all to create a popular uprising against them. (Fear is easily transmuted into anger, after all.)

Instead, Palpatine goes to the trouble of orchestrating a civil war in which he can control both sides. There are three aspects to his plan: the first is to build up an experienced military force; the second is to create the kind of political and economic chaos from which authoritarianism would be perceived as a relief (c.f. interbellum Germany); the last is to stand the Jedi up not as contemplative guardians of peace and justice but as terrifying magical warriors.

A whole generation of Jedi, or rather at least one generation, were Padawans when the Clone Wars opened and Knights (and Generals) when it abruptly ended with their deaths. There's no reason for so much time to elapse in Palpatine's plan unless it was necessary to wait so long--unless it was critically important to create a highly visible set of Jedi who perceived the Force as not a tool to inform knowledge and defense, but as a weapon to be wielded against their enemies.

That's not a problem the Sith created. But it is a problem they had an easy time recruiting from.

I would say, rather, that the conditions for the fall of the Jedi had been in place for some time: an ascetic, monastic culture perceived as separate from more typical galactic concerns, practices that included the near-abduction of children (although that itself was seen as hygiene against the temptation of the dark side), and a great deal of power and privilege divorced from means or individual achievement.

But it took a particularly snaky Sith to see those conditions and conceive of the fall of the Jedi. Denying Palpatine's agency in the fall of the Republic and of the Jedi is to take at face value Michaelangelo's claim about David: the sculpture really was in the marble all along.

***

Like Punning Pundit said, he did not create them. He magnified them.

I didn't say he created them. He found a system with flaws, built up the flaws until the system was arguably broken, then used the broken system as (public) justification for abolishing it--and replacing it with a new system that happens to serve his interests both personally and ideologically.

Saying he's a hero for abolishing the Republic and the Jedi is like admiring a contractor who, when you bring him to your house for an estimate on repairs, takes a chainsaw to your support beams until the place falls in on itself. Then he builds a new house for himself on the same spot, and graciously volunteers to allow you to live there, as long as you pay him rent and do whatever he tells you to.

But hey--your old place needed repairs anyway!

Lol, off topic, but now after that post by WW, everyone with a 1000 posts + has a member title .

Who cares about what Luke thinks, It's all about Wedge and Tycho, right?

'From my perspective Jedi are evil!'

-Darth Vader

You either serve the Force or have the Force serve you.

I will always hear that line in a whiny, annoying voice.

Thanks Prequels.

The fact that a pair of Jedi can walk into a quiet bar, lop someone's arm off, and expect the bar to accept "Jedi business" as a reasonable explanation... That's a problem.

It's not entirely clear whether it's acceptable because it's Jedi business or because, in the Westerns Lucas was cribbing from just as much as he was from Kurosawa, the sudden eruption of violence at the seedy cantina isn't a surprise--and getting interested in it is potentially an invitation for more of the same.

After all, the outcome of Han's encounter with Greedo isn't "Jedi business" at all, but it doesn't seem to attract much more attention or concern.

That's the problem that makes Palpatine's framing the Jedi for an attempted coup seem utterly plausible. That's the sort of problem for which Order 66 is a reasonable solution.

The Jedi may think of themselves as guardians of peace and justice, but I'm not sure anyone else thought of them that way. Terrifying magic beings accountable only to their own consciousness are not a comfort to most people.

I think the entire point of pushing the Jedi into prosecuting the Republic's side of the Clone Wars was part of a calculated part to make it plausible--to change the galaxy's perception of them into "terrifying magic beings accountable only to their own consciences".

Consider what would have happened if the Jedi were indeed not considered guardians of peace and justice not only in their own eyes but in the eyes of the galaxy as a whole. In that case, the conditions for Order 66 would arguably already have existed without Sith intervention: if the power of the Jedi were typically perceived as a terrifying justification for their interference in galactic politics, it would take essentially no effort at all to create a popular uprising against them. (Fear is easily transmuted into anger, after all.)

Instead, Palpatine goes to the trouble of orchestrating a civil war in which he can control both sides. There are three aspects to his plan: the first is to build up an experienced military force; the second is to create the kind of political and economic chaos from which authoritarianism would be perceived as a relief (c.f. interbellum Germany); the last is to stand the Jedi up not as contemplative guardians of peace and justice but as terrifying magical warriors.

A whole generation of Jedi, or rather at least one generation, were Padawans when the Clone Wars opened and Knights (and Generals) when it abruptly ended with their deaths. There's no reason for so much time to elapse in Palpatine's plan unless it was necessary to wait so long--unless it was critically important to create a highly visible set of Jedi who perceived the Force as not a tool to inform knowledge and defense, but as a weapon to be wielded against their enemies.

That's not a problem the Sith created. But it is a problem they had an easy time recruiting from.

I would say, rather, that the conditions for the fall of the Jedi had been in place for some time: an ascetic, monastic culture perceived as separate from more typical galactic concerns, practices that included the near-abduction of children (although that itself was seen as hygiene against the temptation of the dark side), and a great deal of power and privilege divorced from means or individual achievement.

But it took a particularly snaky Sith to see those conditions and conceive of the fall of the Jedi. Denying Palpatine's agency in the fall of the Republic and of the Jedi is to take at face value Michaelangelo's claim about David: the sculpture really was in the marble all along.

***

Like Punning Pundit said, he did not create them. He magnified them.

I didn't say he created them. He found a system with flaws, built up the flaws until the system was arguably broken, then used the broken system as (public) justification for abolishing it--and replacing it with a new system that happens to serve his interests both personally and ideologically.

Saying he's a hero for abolishing the Republic and the Jedi is like admiring a contractor who, when you bring him to your house for an estimate on repairs, takes a chainsaw to your support beams until the place falls in on itself. Then he builds a new house for himself on the same spot, and graciously volunteers to allow you to live there, as long as you pay him rent and do whatever he tells you to.

But hey--your old place needed repairs anyway!

You did say that. You said he was primarily responsible for the flaws of the Republic.

It always bothered me that Luke was so indifferent about Biggs' death, especially since the "sad music" swelled instead when Red Leader died. That whole thing was cut wrong.

It also bothered me pre-special edition, without the scene where he meets up with Biggs: Luke went from being super moody and whiny about Han leaving, then seconds later suddenly ultra-hyper, smiling, "R2 is totally like my BFF he's the greatest! LOL"

Uh... yeah, we're missing something here.

'From my perspective Jedi are evil!'

-Darth Vader

You either serve the Force or have the Force serve you.

I will always hear that line in a whiny, annoying voice.

Thanks Prequels.

I was thinking the same exact thing when I read that lol... "You underestimate my power!".... ugh just fall on your lightsaber for the love of Christ.

Kinda OT but was it in one of the Republic Commando novels where it was some clones making fun of the Jedi saying if they really were so powerful they would have read the contingency orders and Order 66(not a very subtle number) would never have happened? In addition once again if the Jedi were smart instead of 4 Jedi charging into Palaptine's quarters they SHOULD have executed Order 65 (or tried to at least) considering that Palpatine was powerful enough to have hidden himself from the ENTIRE Jedi Council for how many years even meeting in person

It always bothered me that Luke was so indifferent about Biggs' death, especially since the "sad music" swelled instead when Red Leader died. That whole thing was cut wrong.

It also bothered me pre-special edition, without the scene where he meets up with Biggs: Luke went from being super moody and whiny about Han leaving, then seconds later suddenly ultra-hyper, smiling, "R2 is totally like my BFF he's the greatest! LOL"

Uh... yeah, we're missing something here.

I disagree, there is that brief moment he gives a small downward look, that moment of 'ceap, my friend just died' but then he realizes he's next if he doesn't make this shot.

I think we all read too much into these movies and cartoon series. They are for entertainment, not earth shattering drama.

Take it for what it is, space opera with heroics and the good guys giving the warm and fuzzy good feels.

I got to kovies to be entertained and try not to over analyz the product. It saps the fun out of it.. at least for me.

There were some Tatooine scenes in the novel and not in the film, where Luke and Biggs had some interaction before Biggs went off to the 'Academy'.

Luke was the outsider of the group and Biggs was the older Fonz-type character (I suppose like the Harrison Ford's character in American Graffiti). Luke wasn't even a Richie Cunningham, he was more of a Potsie (but could fly instead of sing).

Lucas' novel showed that Luke really didn't have any friends and with the absent father thing - Uncle Owen just kept him working to get over it and Aunt Beru fed him the blue milk (imagine milking a Bantha!) - his only 'companions' were the droids and Old Ben, until Han Solo shows up and becomes the new Fonz.

I think Mark Hamill nailed the whiny try-hard personality.

Still though, I wonder what would have happened if Kurt Russell was selected as Han Solo instead?

The fact that a pair of Jedi can walk into a quiet bar, lop someone's arm off, and expect the bar to accept "Jedi business" as a reasonable explanation... That's a problem. That's the problem that makes Palpatine's framing the Jedi for an attempted coup seem utterly plausible. That's the sort of problem for which Order 66 is a reasonable solution.

Eh...what's this "framing" nonsense?

The Jedi did attempt a coup. Like, literally for real, were trying to overthrow the government and take over.

Whether you agree with their motivation to do that, or not, doesn't really change the fact they DID attempt a coup.

You did say that. You said he was primarily responsible for the flaws of the Republic.

I said he was responsible for the "worst excesses", and in my second post, I clarified and expanded on what I meant by "responsible". Is there something in particular with which you disagree, or are you sticking to the idea that Palpatine was a hero?

Once Porkins went down, Luke's heart was cold and dead. While I'm sure he cared Biggs died, he had to make sure Porkins sacrifice was not in vain.

Edit: As any loyal imperial citizen knows, Palpatine was a hero, and was taken from us, too soon.

The emperor was a beacon of hope in a savage galaxy, his loss was a tragedy worse than any other.

If I can be serious for a moment...

In the original cut of Star Wars, Biggs was just a guy. He's never even called Biggs. So why would Luke react to his death any more than he would to Porkins' or Red Leaders'?

As for Ben, Luke's had the only family he's ever known murdered. But Ben is there to be a mentor, and more importantly, a link to his father. And yet, so soon after his aunt and uncle are killed, there's his newfound teacher and friend being killed, and by the man he was told killed his father. I can totally buy Luke's distress over that.

I think we all read too much into these movies and cartoon series. They are for entertainment, not earth shattering drama.

Oh yeah, what about Alderaan?

OK, hoping not to commit threadnomancy, but.....

Who is Tarkin? We need his back story.

Remember in the original (Ep4 ANH). You have Vader who is the ultimate super bad guy villain who can kill with a glance even from another ship in space...

So here he is choking out some dude bothered by his lack of faith when Tarkin orders Vader to release him.

AND VADER DOES!!!!

So if Vader is such a b@[email protected] does that make Tarkin????

OK, hoping not to commit threadnomancy, but.....

Who is Tarkin? We need his back story.

Remember in the original (Ep4 ANH). You have Vader who is the ultimate super bad guy villain who can kill with a glance even from another ship in space...

So here he is choking out some dude bothered by his lack of faith when Tarkin orders Vader to release him.

AND VADER DOES!!!!

So if Vader is such a b@[email protected] does that make Tarkin????

I've always wondered about that too. Sees like he must be the commanding officer on the Death Star, but you would think Vader would be top dog anywhere he went unless Palpatine was present.

Alderaan was a planet full of peacenik Hippys and deserved its fate.