To be honest, I'm largely against the whole notion of treating lightsaber crystals as little more than attachments to be modified, but I accept that as a necessary element to keep standard lightsabers balanced with other weapons (something they certainly were not in EotE and AoR) but present a way for FaD PCs to eventually earn weapons of that caliber.

I wonder what is the problem with the EotE and AoR Lightsabers ? Where they too strong or are they eventually weaker then other weapons once fully modded and tweaked with many talents ?

Should F&D start weaker and build-up to the EotE and AoR Lightsabers ??

All of that tinkering could just be behind the scenes. I hope that it will be difficult to pick one crystal over another, hard to select an emitter, personal reflection on the Lens. I don't see these as simple min-max things. Sure, you can get a guy who goes for the Rocket Launcher in every group, but I think variation in lightsabers will make people feel more Unique. In the other systems, you could have the Melee Guy with the Axe. The Sniper. The Slugthrower. Etc. In a system where everyone has a Unique Lightsaber, nobodies is.

That's a very valid point. If you want each jedi's weapon to feel unique with his own special thing, then you need to have options to "build" them that way. It's also why I think they won't change the system by much.

I like the system as is.... except for 1 thing.... 7 mods on a single crystal...

I think I understand what the Devs were doing, it just didn't come off right. The crystal is the heart of the lightsaber. Since Mods on an attachment go away when you remove the attachment, it isn't actually the Crystal that is getting Modded. It's the lightsaber itself that is being modded. Because that specific Crystal is the "heart" of the lightsaber you can now "tweak" the other components within to compliment that Crystal. Altering the output wavelength, focusing the lens, adjusting the battery output. THAT is what those modification options represent. I was under the impression that it was the Crystal that was being modded, not the Lightsaber being modded to better fit that crystal. I am more comfortable with the system as is now. It just took an "ah ha".

Would I still enjoy a new Emitter? Sure. A new Battery? YES! But for the first time since I got F&D I feel comfortable with it being Mechanics. I still think the building of a lightsaber should involve the Force, and be something a non-force user would fine near impossible to craft. I still wish for a crystal that is somehow Attuned. But for the first time, I am at peace because I get what it was trying to do.

What if all the + Damage Mods were removed and in their place a lightsaber weilder could commit a Force die (as an incidental) to attune to his saber? While using a lightsaber so attuned, the wielder adds Force Rating to Damage. Note, adjust lightsaber specs to have Force Rating talent.

Have crystals be non-Mod attachments, and allow emitter attachments to adjust critical ratings, etc. Now using Mechanics for Mods makes perfect sense.

What if all the + Damage Mods were removed and in their place a lightsaber weilder could commit a Force die (as an incidental) to attune to his saber? While using a lightsaber so attuned, the wielder adds Force Rating to Damage. Note, adjust lightsaber specs to have Force Rating talent.

The problem is the inverse relationship between FR and saber combat expertise as recently revealed in the specs. Otherwise, very WEGesque...

I like the idea of reducing some of the mod potential as well and adding a damage/other capability boosting force talent in the trees. Except that that begins to clutter those trees more so, and that is similar to what defensive training is. SO it's a much more complex solution than it appears at first glance.

Part of me kind of likes the idea of it being difficult to have a 'maxxed' out lightsaber with all the mods. Just because all those mods exist on a crystal doesn't mean they (the devs) intend for every character to have them all.

Part of me kind of likes the idea of it being difficult to have a 'maxxed' out lightsaber with all the mods. Just because all those mods exist on a crystal doesn't mean they (the devs) intend for every character to have them all.

I'd kind of disagree, based upon a conversation I had with Sam Stewart at GenCon the day after the book came out.

From that discussion, he felt that allowing the PCs to eventually upgrade their lightsabers to be "maxed out" was very much intended on their part as a viable character goal, so that they can eventually get the bad-ass lightsabers that we saw in the EotE and AoR core rulebooks (Damage 10, Crit Rating 1, Breach 1, Sunder, Vicious 2), but that it'd take time for them to achieve it rather than simply saying "okay, here you go, one utterly bad-ass ever-glowing beatstick of doom."

So the intent was very much there that a Force user PC could max out the modifications on their lightsaber... just that it wouldn't be an easy, inexpensive, or instantaneous process.

As has been stated earlier, the main qualm I have is that under the current system, it either requires the 'saber wielder to buy up ranks in Mechanics or hand the weapon off to a more tech-savvy party member to do the upgrades. Thus, the proposal to use Discipline while leaving the difficulties unchanged, cutting down on the likelihood of those two scenarios while also helping keep to the notion that a lightsaber is indeed a "personal thing" and that any changes a Jedi-to-be makes are of a more personal nature. After all, Force uses already have enough things to spend their XP on between talents and Force powers, so forcing them to buy ranks in a non-career skill (none of the careers have Mechanics, and only two specializations offer it, neither of which are LS Form specs) just feels overly punitive, especially as this system doesn't have the gross imbalances of power that the d20 or D6 versions did.

Well, for one I don't think anyone should probably be able to build/modify a Lightsaber if they don't have at least Force Rating 1. I also think there should be at least a small penalty or the loss of some kind of bonus if you're using a Lightsaber that you didn't craft yourself to your own specifications.

Discipline already benefits Jedi a lot.

I'm obviously biased because I've already shared my idea earlier in the thread, but I think it makes the most sense to have both the mechanical and 'spiritual' sides of the force covered. That also means it makes sense for Jedi to learn a little mechanics, but they don't have to be mechanical geniuses because they're going to receive a bonus or bonus dice or dice upgrades from something such as their Force Rating. You could do something like let them commit up to their Force Rating in Force dice and for every die committed it boosts your Mechanics skill by a point, but that bonus only functions for building/modifying your own Lightsaber. That way everyone builds their own, it includes the mechanical aspect and the 'spiritual' aspect, and the Artisan specialization is still special.

Attuning a Lightsaber

A lightsaber is more than a weapon, it is an extension of the jedi bla bla bla...

You may comit a force die to attune yourself with any weapon that uses he lightsaber skill (including the Ancient Sword). If you do, you may add your Lightsaber Skill to damage as long as the force die remains attuned.

Then you can strip the damage enhancements out of the crystals, and focus on enhancing the crystal's special abilities.

So the intent was very much there that a Force user PC could max out the modifications on their lightsaber... just that it wouldn't be an easy, inexpensive, or instantaneous process.

As has been stated earlier, the main qualm I have is that under the current system, it either requires the 'saber wielder to buy up ranks in Mechanics or hand the weapon off to a more tech-savvy party member to do the upgrades. Thus, the proposal to use Discipline while leaving the difficulties unchanged, cutting down on the likelihood of those two scenarios while also helping keep to the notion that a lightsaber is indeed a "personal thing" and that any changes a Jedi-to-be makes are of a more personal nature. After all, Force uses already have enough things to spend their XP on between talents and Force powers, so forcing them to buy ranks in a non-career skill (none of the careers have Mechanics, and only two specializations offer it, neither of which are LS Form specs) just feels overly punitive, especially as this system doesn't have the gross imbalances of power that the d20 or D6 versions did.

Does it seem overly punative for a melee focused hired gun to have to spend xp on mechanics to get the best vibroblade? Or for an assassin bounty hunter to get the best sniper rifle?

I understand the desire to make the LS a personal journey, and that often in the novels and stories it is about discipline and growth, but how is it punative to make a jedi pay xp for the same skills ANY OTHER CHARACTER should pay for to upgrade his equipment?

Also, when talking to people who play the game, I found that for 100 xp any character could have the mechanical expertise to essentially max out their saber. so it's not a long hard journy to do, it's just one that you actually ahve to work towards, and not have the perfect saber handed to you because the character is good at throwing around rocks with the force, and jumping really far. (ps, isn't anecdotal evidence fun?)

Again, simply substituting discipline for mechanics, without splitting it with the emitter or raising the difficulty, is just power creeping force users over all the other careers and specializations and basically wanting one more gift essentially for free (or more specifically incidentally to the growth of the character).

Attuning a Lightsaber

A lightsaber is more than a weapon, it is an extension of the jedi bla bla bla...

You may comit a force die to attune yourself with any weapon that uses he lightsaber skill (including the Ancient Sword). If you do, you may add your Lightsaber Skill to damage as long as the force die remains attuned.

Then you can strip the damage enhancements out of the crystals, and focus on enhancing the crystal's special abilities.

i think that's a touch too much damage for too little commitment. I can't think of any talents remotely close to that level of power.

Put another way: when would you not take this talent?

Attuning a Lightsaber

A lightsaber is more than a weapon, it is an extension of the jedi bla bla bla...

You may comit a force die to attune yourself with any weapon that uses he lightsaber skill (including the Ancient Sword). If you do, you may add your Lightsaber Skill to damage as long as the force die remains attuned.

Then you can strip the damage enhancements out of the crystals, and focus on enhancing the crystal's special abilities.

i think that's a touch too much damage for too little commitment. I can't think of any talents remotely close to that level of power.

Put another way: when would you not take this talent?

"Deadly Accuracy: (Assasin, Gageteer, Mercenary soldier, AoR Sharpshooter) Choose a combat skill. the character may add his basic training ranks with that combat skill as additional damage to one hit of a successful attack made with with that skill with a non starship/vehical wepon"

25XP, but strictly better than what I suggested, which involved taking away a saber specialization's ONLY force die in exchange for 2-5 points of damage, 1/round.

Then again, I was suggesting it to be a default ability of Lightsabers, so we might need to scale back the default damages a tad to compensate.

Yup. I would say that should definitely be a talent if it existed, and not an inherent power.

Also, you didn't specify 1/turn, which with 2 weapon fighting and double sabers is a big deal.

other wise, my comment is that it's a touch vanilla. it doesn't grab me in the same way as mod-ing my pimp saber. But not everything needs to be amazing (flavor wise. not idea wise. that just sounds mean, and I don't mean for it to be).

...now I've got the idea of a Shii-Cho Knight who splashes Sharpshooter, picks up Deadly Accuracy twice, and dual wields a masterwork Krayt Dragon Pearl Shoto and a serrated Vibrosword... each one applying Deadly accuracy 1/round.

So the intent was very much there that a Force user PC could max out the modifications on their lightsaber... just that it wouldn't be an easy, inexpensive, or instantaneous process.

As has been stated earlier, the main qualm I have is that under the current system, it either requires the 'saber wielder to buy up ranks in Mechanics or hand the weapon off to a more tech-savvy party member to do the upgrades. Thus, the proposal to use Discipline while leaving the difficulties unchanged, cutting down on the likelihood of those two scenarios while also helping keep to the notion that a lightsaber is indeed a "personal thing" and that any changes a Jedi-to-be makes are of a more personal nature. After all, Force uses already have enough things to spend their XP on between talents and Force powers, so forcing them to buy ranks in a non-career skill (none of the careers have Mechanics, and only two specializations offer it, neither of which are LS Form specs) just feels overly punitive, especially as this system doesn't have the gross imbalances of power that the d20 or D6 versions did.

Does it seem overly punative for a melee focused hired gun to have to spend xp on mechanics to get the best vibroblade? Or for an assassin bounty hunter to get the best sniper rifle?

I understand the desire to make the LS a personal journey, and that often in the novels and stories it is about discipline and growth, but how is it punative to make a jedi pay xp for the same skills ANY OTHER CHARACTER should pay for to upgrade his equipment?

Also, when talking to people who play the game, I found that for 100 xp any character could have the mechanical expertise to essentially max out their saber. so it's not a long hard journy to do, it's just one that you actually ahve to work towards, and not have the perfect saber handed to you because the character is good at throwing around rocks with the force, and jumping really far. (ps, isn't anecdotal evidence fun?)

Again, simply substituting discipline for mechanics, without splitting it with the emitter or raising the difficulty, is just power creeping force users over all the other careers and specializations and basically wanting one more gift essentially for free (or more specifically incidentally to the growth of the character).

Except that hired guns and bounty hunters don't have the kind of deep personal attachment to their weapons that a Jedi (or someone looking to emulate the Jedi) has with their lightsaber. Jango Fett didn't seem too broken up about losing one of his highly customized blaster pistols, and Boba Fett went right on with trying to take Luke out of the fight even after the kid chopped his blaster carbine in half.

In constrast, we've got Obi-Wan chastising Anakin for being careless with his lightsaber, Anakin then later remarking that "Obi-Wan's gonna kill me" when his 'saber gets destroyed (both in the same movie), and then Vader's complimentary remark upon inspecting Luke's self-built lightsaber, all of which vindicate that for a Jedi, your own lightsaber is a big deal. Even in the EU/Legends, a lightsaber isn't just dismissively thought of as a tool, but as an extension of the self and a large part of the Jedi's identity as a Jedi.

Sorry, my quote function isn't working for some reason.

The reason you don't see those scenes is that they aren't the main characters. that is a fascile arguement and you know it.

In that same context, why didn't obi-wan telepathically chastise anikin the second he lost it? Why didn't anikin leap from the speeder to grab it since it's so important? Why didn't anikin burst into tears and sob about his unique LS getting destroyed in the droid factory?

To claim that a bounty hunter is not as attached to his/her weapon as a jedi is to a LS is not a fair argument. It's romanticizing the Jedi. Now a LS is a big deal, but it's the construction of one that is important. it's actually one of their trials. Not the modification of one. Not the need to obsess about one.

My point is that you are creating a arbitrary dichotomy in this where a jedi MUst care about his LS (and thus should automatically be rewarded for it with another use of discipline) while a non-FS character can't be invested enough in his equipment to get a reward for it (using a non-mechanics skill to modify his equipment). It's a false standard.

As for why Anakin do any of those things you mentioned, he was rather busy trying not to get killed at those given moment, either trying to hang on to the airspeeder (letting go would most likely wind up with him going splat given the speed involved) or not getting squashed himself during the factory sequence. About all he had time for was a brief "well, crap" and then it was back to the immediate task at hand of staying alive while in a high-risk situation. Most individuals are going to find trying to avoid becoming dead a hell of a lot more pressing than anything else, even losing a treasured possession.

And that dichotomy is already present, even in the revised canon, not only for the scenes I mentioned above from the films but also in The Clone Wars where Yoda instructs a group of younglings about how important the act of constructing a lightsaber is to being a Jedi. And in the EU (which FFG has proven they are not the least bit shy about using for reference), the idea of a lightsaber being far more than simply another piece of tech but rather an important part of a Jedi's identity as such is also pretty-well established.

With how the current modification system works (modifications are made to the crystal , not the hilt), using Mechanics to attune a crystal simply doesn't make any sense. Where a Force user using Discipline to attune one's personal lightsaber crystal does make more sense, as the character is using their connection to the Force and own state of mental discipline to strengthen the bond between Jedi, crystal, and the Force does make sense.

With how the current modification system works (modifications are made to the crystal , not the hilt), using Mechanics to attune a crystal simply doesn't make any sense. Where a Force user using Discipline to attune one's personal lightsaber crystal does make more sense, as the character is using their connection to the Force and own state of mental discipline to strengthen the bond between Jedi, crystal, and the Force does make sense.

But by the raw don't the modifications go away if the crystal is removed from the Lightsaber? That makes it seem to me like you're altering the way the internals of the hilt interact with the crystal and not necessarily altering the crystal itself.

The episode of the Clone Wars you mentioned does in fact have Yoda explaining the importance of Lightsaber construction in being a Jedi. It also has him explaining that the crystal is the heart of the Lightsaber and that it focuses the force from the Jedi. But in the following episode you have Huyang the droid architect telling the Padawan to follow the diagram to construct his lightsaber, because he had accidentally inverted the emitter matrix and almost blew himself up. These two elements together suggest a spiritual connection to the lightsaber and a mechanical one.

Edit: Off-topic but another interesting thing about that scene is that Huyang says "light this (referring to the mis-constructed lightsaber) and the only thing left will be your crystal", implying that while the hilt and the Jedi would be destroyed from the blast, the crystal would survive presumably unharmed. Speaks to the durability of Kyber crystals.

As for why Anakin do any of those things you mentioned, he was rather busy trying not to get killed at those given moment, either trying to hang on to the airspeeder (letting go would most likely wind up with him going splat given the speed involved) or not getting squashed himself during the factory sequence. About all he had time for was a brief "well, crap" and then it was back to the immediate task at hand of staying alive while in a high-risk situation. Most individuals are going to find trying to avoid becoming dead a hell of a lot more pressing than anything else, even losing a treasured possession.

And that dichotomy is already present, even in the revised canon, not only for the scenes I mentioned above from the films but also in The Clone Wars where Yoda instructs a group of younglings about how important the act of constructing a lightsaber is to being a Jedi. And in the EU (which FFG has proven they are not the least bit shy about using for reference), the idea of a lightsaber being far more than simply another piece of tech but rather an important part of a Jedi's identity as such is also pretty-well established.

With how the current modification system works (modifications are made to the crystal , not the hilt), using Mechanics to attune a crystal simply doesn't make any sense. Where a Force user using Discipline to attune one's personal lightsaber crystal does make more sense, as the character is using their connection to the Force and own state of mental discipline to strengthen the bond between Jedi, crystal, and the Force does make sense.

You and I have the same feel of this. We don't like the Crystal being what is modded. We want the LIGHTSABER to be what is modded. That said, Demigonis has the right point. The mods represent the Lightsaber components being tweaked and adjusted to the new heart of that lightsaber, the Crystal. So Mechanics does make sense, from this point of view. If the Crystal is ever removed, the Crystal defaults, as does the Hilt.

I still feel we should have some sort of FR requirment in order to craft a Basic/Double/Pike/Shoto lightsaber (it's how we know someones Training is "complete" right?)

I also like some sort of Spiritual connection to the crystal.

I tried rewriting the lightsaber section to make the hilts be the thing that is modified, though I had to codify some of the upgradable specials a bit harder than RAW to make it work.

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/121042-rewriting-lightsabers-a-suggesed-revision/

Thoughts?

Dono: if people are so busy in combat how do you KNOW that Jango didn't lament his blaster being lost? How do you KNOW that Boba didn't lament his rifle being sliced in half?

My issue with your examples (why they are facile) is that you give the jedi a free pass to ignore their loss in combat, and then we see their conversations after. But by that same token, we don't see the emotional fall out of boba or Jango while in combat, so they must not care (the loss must not be meaningful).

My point is that you're applying two different standards, and those standards by the original suggestion reward force sensitive characters; they shouldn't have to play by the same rules as non-FS characters because... special journey.

I think the journey SHOULD be incorporated into the game, but not as a strictly mechanical benefit for FS characters. Perhaps building a Lightsaber should have a milestone kind of effect in the game.

As far as the crystal and modifications, I re-read that section, and going by each entry in the Base Modifiers section, the only thing that gets reset if a crystal is removed is the lightsaber's stats.

Thus, it's not much of a stretch to say that any modifications made to the crystal stay with the crystal, even if it's swapped into another lightsaber hilt, and could also be why the design team didn't include a dozen different emitters, focusing lens, energy cells, and hilt types, or why both Sam Stewart and Andy Fischer liked the idea of allowing a Force user to use Discipline to modify the crystal of their lightsaber, reflecting that the modified crystal is very much a part of that Jedi, something that is very much a factor of constructing a lightsaber in the Legends category (which as has been illustrated multiple times throughout the books) no matter how much someone wants to discount or ignore that portion of the former canon.

Though at this point, this thread is less of a discussion and more of a circular series of "No, you're wrong!" arguments, and thus not worth participating in anymore. I've made my points, sent my feedback to FFG at the proscribed e-mail address citing why I feel Discipline should be an option. If forum readers don't like it for whatever reason, that's entirely their baggage, not mine.

As far as the crystal and modifications, I re-read that section, and going by each entry in the Base Modifiers section, the only thing that gets reset if a crystal is removed is the lightsaber's stats.

Thus, it's not much of a stretch to say that any modifications made to the crystal stay with the crystal, even if it's swapped into another lightsaber hilt, and could also be why the design team didn't include a dozen different emitters, focusing lens, energy cells, and hilt types, or why both Sam Stewart and Andy Fischer liked the idea of allowing a Force user to use Discipline to modify the crystal of their lightsaber, reflecting that the modified crystal is very much a part of that Jedi, something that is very much a factor of constructing a lightsaber in the Legends category (which as has been illustrated multiple times throughout the books) no matter how much someone wants to discount or ignore that portion of the former canon.

Though at this point, this thread is less of a discussion and more of a circular series of "No, you're wrong!" arguments, and thus not worth participating in anymore. I've made my points, sent my feedback to FFG at the proscribed e-mail address citing why I feel Discipline should be an option. If forum readers don't like it for whatever reason, that's entirely their baggage, not mine.

I was under the assumption that removing an attachment from a piece of gear reset it's additional mods (unless a mod check failed). This why I felt mechanics was ok. I do, of course, still agree that discipline should be used if it is anything to do with the Crystal.

Gigerstreak,

I think a lot of folks are under that same assumption. But if you read the entry under Base Modifiers for each crystal, it just says that "if the crystal is ever removed, the lightsaber loses these qualities (referring to the Damage, Crit Rating, and weapon qualities) and reverts to its previous base damage and critical rating." It says nothing about the modifications being lost, though that's much the same as standard attachments being mum on whether they can be removed at all from weapon or armor, with some of them sounding very much like they'd be a permanent part of the item, such as a serrated edge or the superior armor customization.

So it could very well be that it's the crystal that's being modified instead of the hilt components as everyone else has been assuming. in which case, using Discipline to modify the crystal makes sense.

Out of curiosity, what would be the Craft/Artistry skill, to physically gemcut a crystal? (lightsaber or otherwise)