I wouldnt be able to look myself in the eye (in the mirror i guess) if i made someone take a ship off if there base was 2mm out but thats just the way i play.

Fly casual like

Recent game with my pal Sam it was 50/50 whether his Tie bomber clipped my xwing and ended up stalled behind it or whether he ended his move side by side

Side by side made for a better story/narrative as they raced alongside each other so we went for that.

I'm not knocking your playstyle, just saying it's not for me, its not a personal attack.

heh, i'm not offended at all. i accept that people have different aims and standards. i just wanted to make it clear that even those of us who play by the letter of the rules are not bad people, we just like to have an even playing field

If fly casual means, bend the rules whenever you feel somebody makes a mistake and could get his feelings hurt, i can say i am out.

If fly casual means taking into account your opponent's expectations on the game and trying both to have fun, sure i am in. If getting your ship outside the table is going to really piss you off, enough to be angry at your opponent, you seriously should consider why you play the game in the first place. Last week, i ran Rexler outside the table, my opponent told me to take him back, i didn't, and i just laughed about my mistake, which lost me a very close game.

Stop villifying people who play by the rules. Other thing would be people who argue about everything, try to bump his ships on purpose, etc... just to win the game. But if somebody plays by the rules all the time (when it favors him, and when it doesn't), i still don't understand how people correlate it to being a jerk.

Playing with tiny plastic toy space ships is serious bizness..

To be fair, if someone's maneuvering a ship so it's base ends up off the board even by a matter of millimetres, then chances are they've either flown themselves into a corner or done something that's gone spectacularly wrong, and it's unlikely they'll get that ship back into position to make a real difference.

I think in all the games I've been involved in, there's been all of one instance where a ship's gone off the board, and that was the first game we played with the Falcon, and it's base size threw us off...

"Playing with tiny plastic toy space ships is serious bizness.."

Clearly so....

I like how i've said about three times that 'i get it's the way some people have fun playing and thats cool' is somehow 'villyfying' people.

To quote the bard, 'come now am I near ye?'

If i were to play a tournament i'd be less inclined to let things slip than i am when playing casual, your there to win more than to have fun after all.

But you can be like that without being 100% ****.

I have found that the XWing tournaments I've played in have really lacked "that guy". That being said, if you make a mistake, you can't expect your opponent to let it slide like you would in casual play. I forgot to use focus on a ship in my final match of a tourney, and it cost me first place. Shook my head and smiled and told my opponent good game. Never would dream of expecting him to let me use the focus I had been doing all game, and it does not make them "that guy".

Playing with tiny plastic toy space ships is serious bizness..

Who said it is serious business ?

But if somebody plays by the rules all the time (when it favors him, and when it doesn't), i still don't understand how people correlate it to being a jerk.

Because we have quite frankly tried to over correct the issues in Warhammer. In that game being a competitive player quite often does mean being a jerk. Or at least it's that way enough that's the general conception of competitive players.

So when Hothie started Fly Casual, it was to steer us back away from that type of community, and I greatly applauded his efforts in that. But since so many of us are 40k refugees it went overboard and Fly Casual started to take on a frankly darker meaning. Playing too strictly by the rules became a sin.

It's one thing to say that someone who intentional bumps ships then places them just a bit farther or a bit left/right trying to put them out of arc, or perhaps at range 2 instead of range 1... It's also different if someone is a aggressive rules lawyer who takes the smallest missstep on your part and pounces on it. Like the guy who denied someone an action because they flipped the dial when they wanted to use Advanced Sensors.

But most of are not talking about doing things like that, we are simply saying we want to play the game according to the rules as written. This is not by an reasonable meaning poor sportsmanship, or makes someone a jerk.

I remember one thread a few months back where someone had insisted that not only did they expect to be able to activate ships out of order, by moving all the PSX ships together and then taking actions which is clearly against the rules... He actually threatened physical assault on anyone who tried to stop him... All in the name of Fly Casual. Now this is of course an extreme case, but so is the case of losing an action because you flipped your dial.

That said, no one should ever be thought less of because they play by the rules, as long as they're not using the rules as a hammer to beat on their opponent with. In fact IMO it should be the other way around, and anyone who expects take backs or to bend the rules should not be looked upon favorably.

and it's unlikely they'll get that ship back into position to make a real difference.

I once tested it with a A-Wing in Vassal, and IIRC if you're with in 2 bases of the edge of the table you're not getting back on again no matter what you do. So the few MM's off means you're completely done, unless it's a shuttle, and even then it's never going to be able to move.

Somehow I think you and Mr Hasselstein are going to get along just fine.

Wow, my name was mentioned, and the Force did not alert me to it. I guess I'll have to see if the Force needs new batteries.

Regarding the OP (as I haven't read through the four pages of thread, yet), no you're not alone, but I do think that the default of this game is for 6-asteroid-100-pnt-Death-Matches (henceforward 6a100pDMs), and I think the mainstay of the community plays at their FLGS. I guess it depends on how tight your friends group is, and if you have the home setup for playing there.

Your post seems to have several elements. You're questioning if the way you play (which you seem to justifiably prefer) is an outlier in terms of a lack of vehemence, and you lament that the standard game (6a100pDMs at the FLGS) does not have enough narrative.

I wholeheartedly agree with you on the latter, however, I just haven't seen much of the vehemence. I've been happily surprised by how sportsmanlike pretty much everyone I've played this game with has been, and most of my games have been 6a100pDMs at the FLGS.

Regarding narrative, I think that's a function of organization. It takes agreement beforehand, and that requires the community to be a bit more integrated than it tends to be in my observation. I think more organization would be great, but it requires time, effort, and politics.

Yeah you probably need to read some of the other four pages. A lot of my doubt about tourny play comes from being GWs UK 'organised play' manager for some time. I'm pleased to find that I may be wrong about tourny play in general.

Yeah you probably need to read some of the other four pages. A lot of my doubt about tourny play comes from being GWs UK 'organised play' manager for some time. I'm pleased to find that I may be wrong about tourny play in general.

Okay, I've read up on it, but I think my post still stands.

I see where you're coming from given your background. Back when I played GW games, I only really played with friends on a casual basis. Despite this, I was a more vehement person back then, and had confirmation bias about how the dice mistreated me, rather than how I wasn't playing very smart. So, just from my personal experience, I think there's an age component going on, which I do think you touched on regarding the GW player base at those game days. IIRC it was also in the early 1990s that GW specifically targeted the mid-teen audience. (As a late teen, I was offended that they bypassed me and went for those unworthier creatures! )

So, yes, X-Wing has a different (more pleasant) culture. Nevertheless, I think we carry the reputational baggage of the wider miniatures hobby (including gender separation; see the X-Wing Wives thread, which you've been involved in). Also, this is a forum, with its own dynamic which is not representative of the wider X-Wing-playing community. That said, I think this is actually a fairly civilized forum, and its occasional spats notwithstanding, I think it's gotten better in the 4 months (?) that I've been here. Arguments get solved on the PM, and antagonists become friends.

An erudite post. I thank you.

And i agree that i may have seen negativity where perhaps there was just actually a bit of fear/uncertainty of the unknown (which is natural) with the reveal of S&V

If fly casual means, bend the rules whenever you feel somebody makes a mistake and could get his feelings hurt, i can say i am out.

If fly casual means taking into account your opponent's expectations on the game and trying both to have fun, sure i am in. If getting your ship outside the table is going to really piss you off, enough to be angry at your opponent, you seriously should consider why you play the game in the first place. Last week, i ran Rexler outside the table, my opponent told me to take him back, i didn't, and i just laughed about my mistake, which lost me a very close game.

Stop villifying people who play by the rules. Other thing would be people who argue about everything, try to bump his ships on purpose, etc... just to win the game. But if somebody plays by the rules all the time (when it favors him, and when it doesn't), i still don't understand how people correlate it to being a jerk.

I don't think anyone in the X-wing community is 'villifying' anyone, at least not yet. But I'm worried about the "Fly casual" motto eventually getting the implicit addendum "or you're a win at all costs jerk". It's an attitude that's so bad in the 40k community that you can barely admit to playing in tournaments without being called an *******, and even reasonable suggestions that it might be nice, for all types of players, if GW actually wrote balanced rules, without it turning into a massive flamewar in certain forums.

If i were to play a tournament i'd be less inclined to let things slip than i am when playing casual, your there to win more than to have fun after all.

But you can be like that without being 100% ****.

Or, you know, both. But FFG has helpfully laid out standards of strictness in terms of adherence to the rules for us for different levels of play as a guideline. In a pickup game, for instance, I don't mind(too much anyway, especially if you're learning it) if you puzzle over which side/direction you want your Phantom to decloak in and try out a few, but if we're playing in a tournament I expect you to be able to follow the rules on action declaration correctly, and under those expectations we should both still be able to have a good time.

I get these forums are good for venting opinions but sometimes i'm reading this forum and thinking

'are my buddies and I playing it wrong'

We've not found anything 'broken', we dont get upset when new stuff comes out, just go 'wow thats nice' and we just have a laugh *every* game.

Perhaps its because we dont play tournaments

One of the reasons i left GW events is because tournament play seems to bring out the latent git in so many people.

I've seen grown men cry and/or have temper tantrums at Warhammer GTS, i've seen people stall for time so their opponent doesnt get his last turn, i've seen improbably and unlikely forces selected... not because they in any way fit the backstory of the game universe and the army but because they are 'points efficient'.

Jeez, does anyone else just play to have fun and make up cool stories... or is it just us, in the cold hard vacuum of narrative gaming?

Like i say I've been a TO, i saw it suck the fun out of GW gaming, when i was tasked with running more tournys than narrative campaign weekends and open days, thats when i quit.

I want to play epic space battles with character... not do a maths exercise with bits of card and plastic....

(i get everyone has their own style of gaming but it seems most the negativity comes from people who choose to play total strangers with a 'win at all costs' agenda)

I like you, play X-Wing the way it is supposed to be, which is absolutely nothing like the 40k space baboons hack-to-win-at-it...

I don't think anyone in the X-wing community is 'villifying' anyone, at least not yet. But I'm worried about the "Fly casual" motto eventually getting the implicit addendum "or you're a win at all costs jerk". It's an attitude that's so bad in the 40k community that you can barely admit to playing in tournaments without being called an *******, and even reasonable suggestions that it might be nice, for all types of players, if GW actually wrote balanced rules, without it turning into a massive flamewar in certain forums.

There's room for generosity of spirit even at the tournaments, and there is such a thing as the win-at-all-costs jerk. Thankfully, in my experience, these creatures are fairly unknown, and tournaments have not proven to be ice-cold affairs at all. (YMMV)

So, let's acknowledge that the culture of X-Wing players is simply different than those of GW players and be thankful for that. In my view, there's not too much that really needs to be altered about the norms by which we play. What remains is to socialize newcomers into this culture.

(And maybe to practice and express it more on this forum in regards to our discussions.)

Yeah luckily, the community is very different. I know the kind of stuff VanorDM means, but on the other side, people playing just good lists are called from "WAAC'ers to jerks". There are simply too many fanatics in both sides. I guess it is because it has more players.

Imagine people calling others jerks because they are playing phantoms or fat Hans.

Winning is fun! So is making little kids cry when I crush them on the table in their first games...

But seriously folks... I play because the game is fun but I find competition to be even more fun. I challenge myself to be a better player and love to test my skills and wits against another 'capable' opponent.

Now, that being said, we have had some great games where they are no tactics or skills involved, just pure fun. We talked about a recent Epic event on our show and that was just loads of fun!

In the end, I am more in for the tests of skill and tactics, but I know how to turn the volume down and just roll dice with plastic spaceships! I feel you need a good balance between both.

In a pickup game, for instance, I don't mind(too much anyway, especially if you're learning it) if you puzzle over which side/direction you want your Phantom to decloak in and try out a few, but if we're playing in a tournament I expect you to be able to follow the rules on action declaration correctly, and under those expectations we should both still be able to have a good time.

I have no issue with anything you've said. You seem to be right on point with how I feel. The really only difference is the casual kitchen table games. I have 5 friends I play with in a casual setting, even there we hold ourselves to the Tournament level rules. It has helped me become a better player by forcing me to learn from my mistakes. When you build a habit in a casual game you will always bring that habit to a Tournament. Here I believe is where the community gets twisted up on the issue. It's a hard pill to swallow when the thing you get away with all the time in your casual game suddenly is a no go in a Tournament. You could be left with a bad taste as it goes against the way you normally play but instead follows the written rules.

When teaching a player I even hold them to the rules (with Verbal reminders) so they learn good habits from the beginning. I would encourage all players to play this way. I honestly wish there was not allowance of Missed Opportunities in the rules for Tournament play. This would take the fence away from this argument and we could all play with the same expectation. The rule is there now and we have to settle these things at the table.

If I notice players bending the rules at the beginning of a match I voice my expectation immediately. I don't wait until it favors me to stop them from doing skipped actions. I plainly explain i will not allow missed opportunities from that point on. there is no misunderstanding at all over this in my games.

To be honest, whilst I agree with Gadge in principle I can see both sides of the 'play-by-the-rules' argument. When starting in a Bloood Bowl league a few years ago I came across a couple of players who held firm to the illegal procedure rule. I knew before the games that being the 'newbie' wouldn't help but to be honest playing those games probably made me a better (not much though) player. It's how you enforce the rule that shows the kind of player you are. There's never any need to be 'un-gentlemanly' about a rule infringement.

On the subject of people crying foul of new releases... I find it's the same thing as with the GW games. Not all the naysayers are tournament players. I think a lot of the problem is that some people spend more time compiling lists than actually playing the game. If I'm honest I might be one of them at the moment! I've only played my 7 year old daughter so far but in theory I know all about TIE swarm lists, how Howlrunner is the go-to TIE pilot, Veteran Instincts is a must when flying Echo, same for Engine Upgrade on Vader's TIE Advance, etc. I think that a lot of people might sit on here bemoaning this and slating that but still be decent, upstanding chaps across the table. At least I hope that's the case!

There's never any need to be 'un-gentlemanly' about a rule infringement.

That's a good point. There's a pretty big difference between the following...

"Not to be a pain, but I'd prefer it if you moved each ship, and take actions for that ship before you move the next one."

vs

"Listen here you f'ing newb, you move each f'ing ship, then take your f'ing action. Do that "stuff" again and you'll lose your f'ing actions."

Clearly the second is an extreme example... But in both cases they're saying effectively the same thing. I also think that people deserve at least one warning about things, including letting it slide the first time, provided it isn't too big a deal.

I also agree with one of the above posters that if you're going to play fairly strictly, you should make that clear up front.

Well i think im of the play more than i post tribe...usually.

The wife is working stupid amounts of over time this week as its A level result/university clearing and she manages a dept of the university.

I do have a mate coming over for a few games tomorrow though (the joys of working mainly from home) so that might push the 'play' vs 'post' stats up in my favour.

I spend hardly *any* time working out killer lists... i do spend a lot of time 'flying' minis round the house making engine and laser noises.... i never said i was mature.

... i do spend a lot of time 'flying' minis round the house making engine and laser noises.... i never said i was mature.

Face it, there is an inherent childishness in grown men who push little toy spaceships (or cars/ships/soldiers) around a table. Maturity is sometimes overrated. I think a little more childish fun and play in all our lives would make this a better world.

Besides that, I'd have more people to play games with!

And on topic, I try to help people learn the rules correctly and appreciate when someone does the same for me in a polite manner. Theres absolutely no reason to be a jerk. IT'S JUST A GAME! The fate of the universe does not rest on the outcome.

I play for fun. If it is not, there is no point to this recreational hobby. Everyone I've met at Xwing tournaments have been nice. But I still find myself getting away from tournaments now. Just for the sole reason that they require too many hours of the day.