all the 'this sucks' or 'this is broken' or 'this will wreck the balance' threads seem to be centred around building 'competitive lists' for events.

Actually a fair number of those posts are made by people who have said they don't play in tournaments.

I play for fun, I try to fly casual, and I dont like copying people's lists.

I love playing in x wing tournaments, you get to meet new people, fly against new ships, its great.

To everyone moaning about "that player". Yes every game has "that player", someone who wants to win at all costs.

Lets look at the gencon final shall we? someone forgot to use their advanced cloaking system, and their opponent let them off. Which would have had a huge impact on the game. This is flying casual at its heart.

I often remind my opponents of their actions if they forget, or correct them on things they might have been playing wrong. I generally finish in the top 50% when I play in tournaments.

Lets look at the gencon final shall we? someone forgot to use their advanced cloaking system, and their opponent let them off. Which would have had a huge impact on the game. This is flying casual at its heart.

I often remind my opponents of their actions if they forget, or correct them on things they might have been playing wrong. I generally finish in the top 50% when I play in tournaments.

Kudos to that person and you nurglez. To me that's the only way to play. Be a good sport and help your opponent play a better game. After all it is just a game, and meant to be fun.

In general, people who play games like to win. The trouble starts when you can't have fun if you don't.

I've had fun each game. It's never REALLY been about winning to me.

It's an excuse to play around with really cool miniatures with friends. Winning is secondary!

Same here as others have said, I don't do tourneys, and my friends and I have lots o fun gaming... any game we play. I'd like to try a tourney or two and just get the experience, but I'm not gonna let it ruin my fun. I've played in tourneys for some card games (L5R, Shadowrun) didn't do to bad, and liked the competitive atmosphere.

I have fun playing in tournaments, that's why I do it. I have fun playing to win, that why I do it. I have fun making sure my opponents are playing their best game, that's why I won't win on a technicality. At the Texas regional, my opponent forgot to cloak after shooting, going so far as only rolling two defense dice. I made him roll two more dice and take a cloak token (it was what he would have done). I think he ended up rolling two blanks anyways, but still it was totally the right thing to do. High level competition by and large is a very friendly community in the X-Wing world.

I don't think the forums are a good representation of the general X-Wing folks, either the super competitive folks, or the casual folks. There is always one or two power-aggro guys at a tournament, but it's one or two, not many.

Perhaps the casually competitive folks that blame the powercreep/list/tranparent dice skew/whatever for all their losses and don't just keep playing and get more practice in represent the majority of the grumpy ones.

I think some of you miss my point chaps.

I know what tournaments are about, i used to run them for the worlds biggest wargames company for over four years.

My point is that a lot of the negativity in these forums seems to be coming from people looking to build 'win at all cost' lists.

all the 'this sucks' or 'this is broken' or 'this will wreck the balance' threads seem to be centred around building 'competitive lists' for events.

And in my opinion i saw that really drudge down GW events and the standard of sportsmanship.

I'd hate to see xwing go the way of 40kGTs. Trust me i hated running or working on those. The only good bit was the pub quiz in Bugmans at the end. I've seen standards of 'douchery' that you'd chuck someone out of your house for at GTS

But i totally get their appeal.

For some people it is the 'mathhammer' of it

For others its getting to play new people

For some its actually getting to play the game as their mates or wives dont

I get all that, like i say I've been in the industry for a long time.

My point being is that when you *don't* buy in to all of that 'arms race/meta' stuff you seen to be less up set and have more fun.

This is true but you can still do both and not be upset or act like your talking about. It all depends on the person and everyone is different and acts differently. I for one enjoy doing both, some things do pop up where your like wow that seems a little out of balance but you learn from it and work around that figuring out ways to mitigate that perceived advantage wether real or not. Some people it is all about winning like you said, others it's just for fun. My opinion is you can do both and the competetive scene doesn't necessarily bring out the worst in people.

I have fun playing in tournaments, that's why I do it.

My issue with posts like the one the OP made, is that there seems to be this assumption that people can't do what you do Hexis... Go to tournaments and have fun, that somehow people who normally play, have fun and want to win... Become some sort of Mr Hyde-rules lawyer who wants to win at all costs.

Intentionally or not, there's both a "if you play competitively you're a jerk" and a "my play group is better then yours, because of how we play" implied in topics like this.

Again, intentionally or not, the very topic implies this, by making it sound like the only way to have fun is to play like the OP, and anyone who doesn't play like his group is clearly not having fun.

I think most of us here have fun playing the game most every match. But remember forums are a place power-gamers goto (not saying we are all power gamers). Most of the time something is broken is easily translated into that can beat my list. I dont like that build cause it beats my build. These people will complain cause they always pick scissors and are upset if you pick rock.

As for me the main reason I come here is to see various builds and rules clarifications. For years I had a buddy that when playing he would bend and twist rules to the point of breaking. (Note that was had not have anymore) But old habits are hard to break. In my group I'm known as the rules lawyer, you do something that some questions if it can be done I get the question. But if no one asks or cares, I don't stop whats going on. You want C3P-O on Luke's X-wing just pour me a glass and lets play.

I have fun playing this game. Both casually and competitively. I have also had bad experiences playing this game both casually and competitively.

I would say that it sounds like the OP is generalizing WHF/40K and X-wing. While there is some crossover to be sure, I would say that they are in fact different communities. Saying that since you wee the GW OP manager you know how X-wing tourneys work, or that you know how all tourneys work because of it is a bit misleading. I too am a 20 year 40K vet and have seen the neckbeardiness of which you speak. I also have not seen anything even approaching that in X-wing (20 or so OP tournaments, and weekly league nights since October 2013). Have I seen douchiness at a tourney? Of course. But it has always been isolated to one or two people in the group, and generally they change their attitude or quit coming to events. A strong, friendly community doesn't tolerate that kind of shittiness.

I'm in this game to have fun casual games with my friends. To me, its a cool way to relive all those hours spent playing old X-wing and TIE fighter games on floppy disk, and my friends feel the same way.

Plus, unlike 40k, this game is more balanced and my friends and I tend to get less picky than other miniatures games.

My group consists of myself and my three kids. We are all Star Wars tragics who pick our lists based around the ships we like the look of, pilots and upgrades come later. We have a lot of fun, nothing they like better than beating the old man.

You Sir, have the best forum name ever!

Fun and winning are not exclusive of each other, nor should they be requirements of each other. I have more fun trying to play competitively, testing my wits and skill against equal or better competition (as opposed to beating up on new or unskilled players), but I can also enjoy just pushing ships around and blowing things up. Generally, our group plays the first way (competitive, 100 point lists to challenge ourselves and have fun with that aspect) and reserve epic type games (larger points and ships, not serious) for ultra casual games.

Regardless, if you play honestly and treat your fellow players and the game with respect, and expect (and receive) the same in return, you should have fun regardless of how you play the game. Even "competitive" X-Wing is just a game and should be treated as such, but competitive style and casual/friendly style are neither better nor worse than each other; just different.

I get these forums are good for venting opinions but sometimes i'm reading this forum and thinking

'are my my buddies and I playing it wrong'

We've not found anything 'broken', we dont get upset when new stuff comes out, just go 'wow thats nice' and we just have a laugh *every* game.

Perhaps its because we dont play tournaments

One of the reasons i left GW events is because tournament play seems to bring out the latent git in so many people.

I've seen grown men cry and/or have temper tantrums at Warhammer GTS, i've seen people stall for time so their opponent doesnt get his last turn, i've seen improbably and unlikely forces selected... not because they in any way fit the backstory of the game universe and the army but because they are 'points efficient'.

Jeez, does anyone else just play to have fun and make up cool stories... or is it just us, in the cold hard vacuum of narrative gaming?

Like i say I've been a TO, i saw it suck the fun out of GW gaming, when i was tasked with running more tournys than narrative campaign weekends and open days, thats when i quit.

I want to play epic space battles with character... not do a maths exercise with bits of card and plastic....

(i get everyone has their own style of gaming but it seems most the negativity comes from people who choose to play total strangers with a 'win at all costs' agenda)

If you guys are having fun, then you are definately doing it right!

Anyone who gets upset at the game, or decides that the only way to have fun is WAAC, is damaging to the spirit of the game/community.

Dear god people.....it's a bunch of little plastic toy ships we're pushing around a table, you're supposed to be having fun! I dread the day that XW:M's community turns into Warhammer 40k's community...

I would say most people in this forums feel the same way. The ones who don't, are just more vocal about it in the forums creating new threads.

While I love having fun, I also enjoy improving my game.

I've learnt a lot from playing at tournaments, I've met some great people, and seen some very interesting lists (that I've been inspired by), I've managed to squeak wins where I felt I was the underdog, and I've lost when I felt I should have won. I've flown stupidly, I've flown amazingly, I've been incredibly lucky and had terrible luck, but always had fun (though I'm still not over Fel shooting a y wing at range 1 twice and doing no damage even with a focus token).

I've stopped/cut down my 40k tournament attendance, but the x wing community as a whole is so much friendler, so much more varied,

While this forum does seem to have more negativity on it, like most forums this is because people who feel slighted or upset shout louder then people who are happy.

Gadge - if you're ever in Dorset give me a shout - seriously I mean shout really loud - we don't even have phones out here on the outer rim

Gadge - if you're ever in Dorset give me a shout - seriously I mean shout really loud - we don't even have phones out here on the outer rim

It was fine before the carrier pigeon went extinct, now your down to spraying messages on the sides of sheep and crossing your fingers.

Hahah, i' used to have a girlfriend at Bournemouth uni in the 90s not been back to Dorset since.

It did seem like the place people went to grow old and dissapear (no offence, just seemed full of pensioners when i was visiting).

(note my GF was not a pensioner, she was a student )

I think a few people totally missed my point here so once again , probably third time i'll reiterate

I know how tournys work for more than just WF/40k, like i say I've been in the gaming industry for about 15 years on and off.

Its just that my *personal opinion* is that the negativity on the forums seems to be from people who trying to design the ultimate list rather than playing narrative or scenario gaming. I get that's some peoples style, I also get that they clearly *enjoy* this and quite possibly enjoy *causal* play likewise.. I'm not stupid I've got a post grad thanks

I'm super happy to hear that on general it seems that the x-wing tourny scene is very different from the GW one.

That is awesome.

I was a little worried when i saw the '2/3mm off table' fly off ruling but clearly thats an exception.

To sum up my point was only that when you dont take it too seriously you seem to have more fun and it seems most of us agree on that.

I'm certainly not saying 'my way of playing is the only way of playing'.

Like I say, i personally have a very negative prior experience with tournament play. Both because of the standards of sportsmanship i've seen displayed but also because of the way it was 'championed' by GW because it was the most cost effective event they could run.

On average around 2005 a two day GT would generate about 15-20 thousand pounds in impulse buys from the attached Warhammer World store. It took about two days to knock up the tickets and put them on mail order and three guys to run it with a laptop with a programme to establish the running order via a Swiss system.

In contrast an Open Day made the same amount of money but took months to arrange as we had to create unique gaming tables, studio staff had to agree to work a weekend, we had to create other hobby activities and run a series of adverts and local store promo.

Likewise campaign days, while essentially 'team tournaments' required a lot more staff, a whole campaign setting and rulebook to be written for each one and on the day a chap who was good with photoshop to edit the map displaying which taskforce or empire had which territory.

it was a total no-brainer for my boss to ask me to run more tourneys and less narrative events as the productions cost versus store profit + ticket sales was much more efficient.

However as head of 'organised play' I didnt actually feel that tournys were really building the hobby as much as open days and campaign weekends did. They didn't build back story, create character, show people how the designers intended a game to be run (as at open days you could often play a game ran by say Gav Thorpe or Graham Mcneil)... they did however let a lot of people who never got a game normally a chance to play five games over a weekend...for some people they were the only five games they played all year. That was a good thing (however they could still play five games a weekend at a campaign weekend).

Tournys sold out in days as they had a 'prestige' to them, campaign weekends sold out almost as fast though. The thing is it was more that they were cheaper to run, hence we pushed on tournys, hence we saw more people pull out beardy lists just to win at a GT. Lists that had little relation to the intended list of an army.

For example one guy took i think it was *sixty* basic tactical marines (or more) with no upgrades, no support, no sgt upgrades, no squad weapon. The reasoning was that at the end of six turns he'd still have models alive to contest table quarters and most likely still dominate his own. It's that sort of 'mathshammer' that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.... again i'm glad it clearly doesnt exist in Xwing from the comments raised.

This unfortunately meant though that for a while (and it may still be, im well out of it all) the focus on the game was always a 2000 point death match that often made no sense (blood angels vs blood angels with identical lists), i always felt it was a shame for a great game to go that way.

Personally, and its the way i feel, its not right or wrong its my personal feeling.... i think tournys in general bring out the worts in players, stuff they simply wouldnt do in a friendly game as that prize is at stake. I'm basing that on 15 years experience on and off in the wargames industry.

If it's not that way in your country/region/gamestore i'm really pleased for you

Personally, and its the way i feel, its not right or wrong its my personal feeling.... i think tournys in general bring out the worts in players...

Not sure about worts, but I did wake up once after a particularly heavy night out in Nottingham with a very odd-looking rash...

if it was a night out at 'rock city', then you probably touched the carpets at some point...

I've only been to a few tournaments where there were "big" prizes. One of them being a local 28 person one with the tantive as a prize.

At least 2 of my friends who attended had only gone to a few tournaments, and didnt do that well, but generally had fun.

I came 6th with my 2 stressy shuttles and Fel list, which was nice

As I said previously, the people who want to design that perfect list will make more posts on a forum then people who are just in it to have fun (generalisation of course).

I like getting list advice, I like seeing what other people run, getting ideas for combos, tactics etc.

However what I love about x wing is there is no perfect list, everything out there has a counter, and the best way to do well is to know how to fly your list well.

I dislike 40k now, as it feels even more about what list you bring rather then how well you play it (once again another generalisation). Playing a close combat army vs a gunline, well, there isn't a huge amount you can do.

Oh, and no matter who I am playing, if a ship goes off by 1mm, then its off. thats the rules. I've flown ships off the board, it sucks, but thats what the edge is for.

Ultimately, a lot of people play for fun, and from what I've seen, they still attend tournaments to have fun. I'm happy if I win 50% or higher of my tournament games, and I'll generally be low enough down the swiss pairings to miss out on any win at all cost players.

I'm all about games being fun. I only play with mates and we laugh the whole way through. Every wrong turn, every left turn when we should have gone right. It's great. I think fun players should be confident enough to go to comps too, just stick to your guns, have a blast and win some sportsmanship prizes

there is this weird assumption that only unpleasant people do well at tournaments. i am generally in the top 5 at most events and no-one i have ever played in the last year has been anything but wonderful to play against.

the point is, this rule-set is so tight and everyone knows it so well that there is very little to argue about. if you are 2mm off the edge, then that's it, you are 2mm off the edge, ship gone. BOTH players know this, and most don't expect to be let off, and will laugh about it during and after the game. there is nothing wrong with playing by the letter of the rules, and it doesn't have to impact the fun factor in any way whatsoever.