Hey guys,

i've a question about magnitude damage. Lets assume my stormbolter hits a horde 4 times, i have the "Storm of Iron" traint, Master of Arms (Explosive(2)) and Hellfire Rounds. Is this calculation correct?

((8 Base ( normal hits + storm) + 8 (Explosive (2) ) + 8 (Hellfire))*2 (Storm of Iron))+1 Explosive

= 49 magnitude damage

Thanks for help!

Not quite, but close. I'm going to walk you through the correct steps in the calculation, and also throw in my 2 cents regarding what I would recommend for situations exactly like the one you describe:

- Each degree of success (two, if using errata rules) adds 2 extra hits to the base of 2 for succeeding at all, since you're using Storm, up to the maximum of 2x your base rate of fire (8 total)

- As all of those hits are from a Blast weapon, they automatically hit a number of times equal to the blast rating. So, you have 16 base hits, so far you're correct.

- Explosive adds one extra hit, so you have 17 hits total.

- Hellfire rounds inflict an extra point of magnitude damage per hit , so you have so far (assuming every shot did at least 1 point of damage) 34 magnitude damage.

- Storm of Iron doubles any magnitude damage dealt to a horde, so your 34 is doubled, to a total of 68.

So the proper calculation is ((16 base (8 hits from a blast 2 weapon) + 16 (Hellfire))+(1 (explosive) + 1 (hellfire))*2 = 68

My recommendation? Change Storm of Iron to do the same as what Hellfire does (adds 1 damage per hit), or don't give Master of Arms to someone who also has Storm of Iron. Either way would maintain game balance, as those two only cause absurd damage figures (as above) when in combination.

Oh, it's worse than i tought xD Thank you!

Hellfire rounds (excepting for S/-/- in Heavy Bolters) do not have a Blast trait. They only add +1 mag damage/hit to a horde.

Also, the additional hit from X is applied after ALL other hits are calculated.

Storm of Iron is calculated after all other effects (including +1 hit for X) since it doubles magnitude damage, not hits.

This is how to resolve attacks against hordes:

A: Determine hits

1: Roll attack - determine hits from weapon
(Storm bolter: 6 DOS = 4 hits, doubled for Storm quality)

2: Apply any talent/ability which MULTIPLIES hits.

3: Apply any talent/ability (+1 for X Type) which ADDS to hits. (9)

B: Calculate magnitude damage

1: Roll damage for all hits.

2: Apply any talent/ability which MULTIPLIES magnitude damage.

3: Apply any talent/ability which ADDS to magnitude damage. (+8)

Total is even more confusing, clarification inbound.

I believe Devastating quality is the only ability which musses with part B. Since the extra mag damage is done by the weapon and the damage is applied on hit instead of normal, Storm of Iron would multiply it. While the Devastator ability: Unrelenting Devastation is not doubled as the extra mag damage is not caused by the attack, rather an ability which is triggered AFTER the attack is fully resolved (confirmed via FFG clarifications).

Sorry, a significant portion of what you said there is patently wrong.

The biggest thing you missed is the fact that under master of arms, when the original poster indicated Explosive (2), they obviously mean Blast (2), as that is what Master of Arms actually provides, Explosive (2) is not actually a thing at all. Also, Absolutely None of what you said is spelled out in the rules, in terms of "order of operations" (addition vs multiplication, I mean). Then let's go with what *is* spelled out in the rules, from pg. 359, damaging a horde.

So then under Blast weapons for damaging a horde, we have "A Blast Weapon that hits a horde hits a number of times equal to its blast value". In this case 2. Well, how many times was the horde hit in the first place? We all know it's 8 with storm, I'm not trying to be a jerk here, so I'm not going to bother quoting combat rules for hits or storm rules, suffice to say, you hit the horde 8 times, and each of those (being fired by a blast weapon) hits a number of times equal to the blast value (16 total).

The second thing that you seem to miss (despite it being stated in my previous post as a direct quote from page 159 under hellfire rounds) is that hellfire rounds do not inflict additional hits. "When used against a horde, hellfire rounds add one additional point of damage to the horde's magnitude per hit". As you correctly stated, you calculate magnitude damage after determining the number of hits (by determining, incidentally, how many of those hits inflict 1 or more points of damage).

So, in terms of the number of hits, how many do you have? 16? Nope, 17, +1 for being eXplosive. Using the errata rules for damaging a horde, it specifically states that "weapons that inflict explosive damage gain a bonus against hordes, and count as having inflicted one additional hit per attack after all other hits have been applied". Which is why, for example, we both correctly indicated it does not gain bonuses from storm, or blast weapons, or anything. It's just flat +1 hit .

Having inflicted 17 hits, you then determine magnitude damage. As long as all of those 17 hits inflict 1 or more point of damage, that's 17 magnitude damage right there, then going back to the specific description of hellfire rounds, you add +1 magnitude damage per hit (regardless of if the hit itself caused magnitude damage, by the way), so +17 magnitude damage, for a total (maximum) of 34.

As we both correctly stated, Storm of Iron states that it "doubles any damage that would be dealt to the horde's magnitude", not "doubles any damage that would be dealt to the horde's magnitude, unless that is from a bonus of some kind", and it has not been errata'd. Ignoring your statement about unrelenting devastation specifically, which even though I hold to be nonsensical, I know that you can and would respond with a quote from a FFG clarification, your statement would also imply that the damage from hellfire rounds (being added magnitude damage) would not be multiplied, which is simply not, by definition, doubling any damage that would be dealt to the horde. If you accept that as true, it's 17 x 2 + 17 = 51, if you accept the Rules As Written, it's 17 (from hits) + 17 (magnitude damage from the description of hellfire rounds) x 2 (per the description of storm of iron) = 68 magnitude damage, as originally described.

Gotta go with Quinn on this one...but I really wish it wasn't so!

As a quick note, too- if you have access to storm of iron, you are a Devastator Marine or a Tactical Marine. Either way, you also have access to Bolter Drill. If you are the player, you should definitely look at getting that. If you're the GM, you should definitely look out for that. It raises you RoF by 1, meaning (assuming max hits, all of which inflict magnitude damage, as always) w/ storm 2 hits from a blast weapon (inflicting 4 additional hits on the horde), +4 magnitude damage from Hellfire weapons, x2 for storm of iron, for an additional 16 magnitude damage, 84 total.

If you're the GM, again, don't give master of arms to a player that gains access to storm of iron. I like to think that it (being a GM only award, since it's a distinction) provides a means by which to allow ranged combat specialists without access to things like Bolter Drill and Storm of Iron to stay competitive with those whom have those abilities.

Oh yes... i forgot Bolter Drill, our tactical marine has that too! And sorry for the "Explosive (2)", We play the game in german and there the term is "Explosiv"

If you're the GM, again, don't give master of arms to a player that gains access to storm of iron. I like to think that it (being a GM only award, since it's a distinction) provides a means by which to allow ranged combat specialists without access to things like Bolter Drill and Storm of Iron to stay competitive with those whom have those abilities.

Yeah...it's too late

Besides a wordage snafu I see no errors.

Hellfire rounds do not have Blast anything, this is not incorrect. They don't. A talent which gives such an ability would be applied exactly as I specified.

1st: Multiplying talents

2nd: Adding talents

So nothing wrong there.

I will admit, your specific wording on hellfire rounds is correct. Functionally, in consideration or position on the calculation there is no difference. The single minor error is corrected.

As errata states:
"Damaging a Horde (page 359): The sentence “Weapons that inflict Explosive Damage (X) gain a bonus against Hordes, and count as having inflicted one additional Hit” should be changed to “Weapons that inflict Explosive Damage (X) gain a bonus against Hordes, and count as having inflicted one additional Hit per Attack after all other Hits have been applied .”"

Emphasis mine.

Here is the clarification concerning modifiers.

"All additive modifiers to Characteristics are applied AFTER multiplicative modifiers . This is true of the bonus to Strength gained from a Battle-Brother's Power Armour as well as any other additive modifiers ."

Again, don't see anything which makes what I stated incorrect.

And then the clarification concerning unrelenting devastation (Just swap out Wrathful Descent with Unrelenting Devastation and Whirlwind of Death with Storm of Iron).

"In answer to your first question, the damage from Wrathful Descent is dealt by the ability itself, not the melee attack that it is contingent on. It is therefore NOT multiplied by Whirlwind of Death."

Don't be too quick to point out percieved errors in others. Zeal can be blinding.

Hey, I hope I wasn't coming off too strong in my reply, reading it over again I fear I may have been, my apologies. I don't mind being corrected, I don't mind others being wrong, but when I've already provided the correct answer, and am corrected by someone who is themselves incorrect, I find it a bit frustrating, thus my possibly overboard reply. So again, my apologies.

Sure, had you recognized that a blast weapon was in fact being used, and realized the way that hellfire rounds work, it is possible you may have come to the correct answer. I just had qualms with you indicating my figure was incorrect and supplying one that was flawed in multiple ways. I was also concerned that you were implying it is better to follow a set pattern than to look at the verbiage and instructions inherent in each individual distinction, talent, or other effect impacting the situation, as often (such as with bolter drill), it is not as simple as "multiplying vs addition"- that adds to the ROF of the weapon, so obviously, despite being an additive modifier, it applies before any multiplication occurs. Obviously it does not add to hits, my point being merely that reading the actual rules is often more helpful than assuming based on generalizations.

Even just based upon your clarification, the additive damage from hellfire rounds, as well as likely any other additive bonuses that are part of the attack, are quite clearly part of "the attack it is contingent upon", and thus would be multiplied by storm of iron, as it states "When using a flamer or firing a Semi or Full Auto Burst against an enemy with the Horde trait, the Battle-Brother doubles any Damage that he deals to the Horde’s Magnitude. For example, if the Battle-Brother’s attacks would reduce the Horde’s Magnitude by 5, this amount is doubled to 10".

I do not see any way to possibly read that such that if you would, in this instance, deal 34 damage without the talent to a horde as the direct result of an attack, it is not then multiplied to 68. It specifies both that it multiplies *any* magnitude damage, and specifies taking the final amount of magnitude damage and multiplying it. So, quite clearly, in this instance you would perform all additive multipliers first (such as hellfire rounds), and then multiply. Edit: Just imagine, if you would, for a moment if the 'For example' read "for example, if the Battle-Brother's attacks would reduce the Horde's Magnitude by 34, using hellfire rounds, master of arms, and a storm bolter, this amount is doubled (excepting of course the hellfire rounds as they are an added bonus) to 51". Wouldn't that come across as ridiculous?

Also, your calculations in reply to their post querying as to the damage done with a storm 4 blast weapon still don't reflect it being a blast weapon, you might want to fix that, as that's kinda part of their question. In addition, you still have a hit that is not getting the bonus damage from hellfire rounds, which makes no sense. It doesn't matter if explosive is applied after all other hits are applied. We agree upon that, it's why it's not multiplied, and is another example of why I think your generalizations are wrong, as if that was a general rule, there would be no need to specify it. It is still, however, a hit, and as hellfire weapons deal +1 magnitude damage per hit, I don't see how you can think they wouldn't do +1 magnitude damage for that hit. That hit could apply as a completely separate attack, it would still be a hit, and still get +1 magnitude damage. Unless you think the hit doesn't come from the weapon, despite being a result of the weapon's qualities? If that were the case, how would you propose rolling damage to determine if the hit results in magnitude damage to the horde? Would you still roll normal storm bolter damage, but try to argue that it is done as though it is using normal ammo? Honestly, it makes more sense to argue that storm of iron doesn't apply to the bonus hit than it does to argue that hellfire rounds wouldn't apply, their verbiage clearly interacts.

Edit: I hadn't even really felt the need to even mention it before, but yeah, unnatural characteristics follow completely different rules than just about everything else in the game system. The emphasis on your statement should be "all additive modifiers TO CHARACTERISTICS are applied after multiplicative modifiers. This is true of (example), as well as (general rule)". That applies to, as an example, the +10 Strength and Toughness a Techmarine gets with his Enhanced Bionic Array. It has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not hellfire rounds are multiplied by storm of iron (apparently our main point of disagreement).

hi herichimo, thanks for your help, but i never said that hellfire rounds would give the weapon blast (2), it comes from "Master of Arms"

HIndsight only ever works after the fact.

You'll just have to wait on the clarification (it may take a bit).

Are you referring to me, or Dr. Quinn?

Generally and everyone.