Fact One: Falcons don't mind an ion token here and there, but they hate actually being ionized in the middle of a maneuver. Walking a Large ship off the board with ions can be difficult to do, but walking one into an uncomfortable position vis-a-vis giant space rocks is far easier and nearly as amusing. Ionization also effectively shuts down Push the Limit and Expert Handling, both of which are far from unheard-of as Falcon upgrades.

Fact Two: Phantoms hate ions, because an ionized Phantom can't decloak. Phantoms also aren't big turret fans.

What do you get when you add those things together? You get a trick that is going to frustrate the bejeezus out of both of the metagame elements people are most concerned about right now. A pair of Gold Squadron Pilots with just Ion Cannon Turrets and focus tokens have a 60% chance to ionize a Phantom, and a 70% chance to ionize a Falcon (assuming the teeth of Threepio + evade have already been pulled by a higher-PS ally). Those are good odds from where I sit.

And even if you don't get the chance to attack a crafty Range 3 Phantom or Falcon with your turrets, that means you're practicing area denial; a Range 1-2 bubble stretches across half of the board, and you're packing two of them. That's a nice way to limit where that Phantom can land even if he never takes a single attack.

I think it works better in a four-ship list, but there are some new tricks in the world for three-ship lists, too, and I'm curious if that would work out. So, without further fanfare or commentary, here are two lists I think might be able to take advantage of board control to beat the current metagame.

***

List One

"Dutch" Vander (23)

Ion Cannon Turret (5)

R5 Astromech (1)

Roark Garnet (19)

Ion Cannon Turret (5)

Tarn Mison (23)

R7 Astromech (2)

Blue Squadron Pilot (22)

Total: 100

***

List Two

"Dutch" Vander (23)

Ion Cannon Turret (5)

R7-T1 (3)

Luke Skywalker (28)

Predator (3)

R5-P9 (3)

Kyle Katarn (21)

Predator (3)

Ion Cannon Turret (5)

Recon Specialist (3)

Moldy Crow (3)

Total: 100

Ion squads are menacing in our epic games, for sure. My half of the team is often a loaded up corvette with two goldies escorting (I'm always Rebel, because I'm the only owner of huge ships...also, no one else knows how to fly them or I'd gladly share).

There is no better surprise than ionizing an enemy ship, only to splatter it with the CR-90 next round. That makes for one angry Imperial.

Saw your post about this eleswhere, and decided I liked the idea, because I love Y-Wings and X-Wings. I put together the following.

Gold Squadron Pilot, R5 Astromech, Ion Cannon Turret

Gold Squadron Pilot, R5 Astromech, Ion Cannon Turret

Tarn Mison, R7 Astromech

Garven Dreis, R2 Astromech

I just love the idea of Tran with R7. Garven was mostly because I had points for him, but not much else. Plus at PS5 he'll be able to pass a token to who ever else needs it most.

think it definately has merit.

I'd rather 2 golds with turrents at 46 points. thats enough points left over for a wedge and biggs. Ions are great but lack the chance to inflict multiple hits on targets. wedge and biggs however can quickly make up for that.. or just two more 3 att ships would work like you have in list one.

Saw your post about this eleswhere, and decided I liked the idea, because I love Y-Wings and X-Wings. I put together the following.

Gold Squadron Pilot, R5 Astromech, Ion Cannon Turret

Gold Squadron Pilot, R5 Astromech, Ion Cannon Turret

Tarn Mison, R7 Astromech

Garven Dreis, R2 Astromech

I just love the idea of Tran with R7. Garven was mostly because I had points for him, but not much else. Plus at PS5 he'll be able to pass a token to who ever else needs it most.

This build could replace the 1pt astros and put r5-p9 on a ywing.

The problem with this general concept, is that at a big event, there are still a bunch of random builds. I've yet to see someone slug through more than 3 falcon +phantom builds total in 6 rounds of swiss. You need a build that can do well against falcons or phantoms or both at the top 8 table or top 16 or w/e, but you need to also be able to get there. The double ion likely lacks firepower against wave 3 ish bwing builds. Even against some good phantom pilots with strong mini swarm builds, it may lack the firepower to get through the support ties fast enough, and the phantom can sit at range 3 until at least one ion is down.

Stand by ion control...

I don't dislike the first list. Especially as dutch will buff your offense. The firepower is minimal but that matters more when there are more ships to shoot.

The double ion likely lacks firepower against wave 3 ish bwing builds.

B-wings hate ion cannon turrets even more than Falcons do. It might take Gold Squadron eight rounds to kill a B-wing, but there's very little the B-wing (any B-wing) can do about it, other than pray for the dice god's favor. BBXX does not like double ion cannon turrets.

Even against some good phantom pilots with strong mini swarm builds, it may lack the firepower to get through the support ties fast enough, and the phantom can sit at range 3 until at least one ion is down.

I do agree here: Phantom + 4-5 TIEs is a tough list to beat, and something like List Two would definitely risk running aground unless it got lucky early.

I really like both lists in the OP. I'm more partial to named pilot builds, like the second, but the first definitely looks like something I'd try to fly.

Can always pull out the classes Wave 1 Leader List:

Dutch+Ion+R2

Garven

Gold+Ion+R2

Rookie

Can always pull out the classes Wave 1 Leader List:

Dutch+Ion+R2

Garven

Gold+Ion+R2

Rookie

I preferred R5s, actually. I've never really felt like I got my money's worth from R2 units on turret Y-wings. But it's still a good list, IMO, and I'm quite fond of it--though these days I usually drop the astromechs entirely and promote Gold to Roark and Rookie to Blue.

The problem with those two lists, in my opinion, is that the ion cannons both shoot early in the round. Compared to the other ships in the squad. And like you mentioned in the first post, they usually should shoot last so tokens and 3P0 are gone.

Has anyone tried AAYY with two golds?

Green Squadron Pilot x2

- Outmaneuver

- Push the Limit

- A-Wing Test Pilot

- Chardaan Refit

- Shield Upgrade

Gold Squadron Pilot x2

- Ion Cannon Turret

PtLs could easily be anything else, too. Or a Green Squadron Pilot could become a unique pilot with a few upgades removed. Rebel Aces should be out soon so the refit and test pilot should be fine to test out.

The problem with those two lists, in my opinion, is that the ion cannons both shoot early in the round. Compared to the other ships in the squad. And like you mentioned in the first post, they usually should shoot last so tokens and 3P0 are gone.

Has anyone tried AAYY with two golds?

Green Squadron Pilot x2

- Outmaneuver

- Push the Limit

- A-Wing Test Pilot

- Chardaan Refit

- Shield Upgrade

Gold Squadron Pilot x2

- Ion Cannon Turret

PtLs could easily be anything else, too. Or a Green Squadron Pilot could become a unique pilot with a few upgades removed. Rebel Aces should be out soon so the refit and test pilot should be fine to test out.

With stress becoming a bigger factor, in part to get people to use something other than PtL so often I imagine, I might put Predator in its place as you say. Then swap the Shield Upgrades for Hull Upgrades, which is slightly weaker, yes, but does have the added benefit of protecting you from Direct Hit! Proton Bombs. With the extra 2 points, the Golds can pick up R2 units, giving you:

I have a list I'm playing with with Cracken, Blount and a talon Z all with missles backed up by Dutch with the droid that adds an EPT...I've been using outmaneuver to bolster the ion cannon. After the merge it's in use constantly!

Can always pull out the classes Wave 1 Leader List:

Dutch+Ion+R2

Garven

Gold+Ion+R2

Rookie

I preferred R5s, actually. I've never really felt like I got my money's worth from R2 units on turret Y-wings. But it's still a good list, IMO, and I'm quite fond of it--though these days I usually drop the astromechs entirely and promote Gold to Roark and Rookie to Blue.

I ran some rough math a while ago, and R5 is just not worth its points, er point. On Y-wings I estimated they were worth 0.5-0.6. Other locations are less due to lower hull values. This means almost any other use of those spare points is better, but I agree with Vorpal that I very rarely feel I need R2s on my ion cannon Y-wings. So that spare point or two is better used on some EPTs if you have the slots. R4-D6 is a good Y-wing option as well. That said, one use of R5 makes it worth it (I have seen it flip a Direct Hit), so it depends on your risk tolerance. R5 was better in earlier waves when there were fewer 1-point upgrades to compete with it, and that design space is only going to diminish.

Y-wings have a lot of hull, and we do have Etahn and Rexler around now.

Vader as well, so that is a fair point, but ultimately it would not change the math a whole lot. Only ~58% of the crit cards (ship ones that do not immediately resolve) can be affected by R5 in the first place, so even if you slightly increase the chance of an individual damage being a crit (I used the flat 1/8), there are so many stacked conditions that the end result does not change a whole lot. A given attack needs to deliver a non-fatal crit, that crit needs to be one R5 can flip and the R5 ship needs to survive until the end of the round. These are all before you factor in the chance that you will be facing a crit-heavy squad. Maybe then you could get to .7 or .8 at a stretch, but that still leaves R5 as an inefficient use of point, albeit a minor one. When I ran my estimate, I also attached weight to the various crit cards that could be flipped, which worked in R5's favor, and he still came up short.

I mentioned this in another thread, but a list I am really enjoying right now is:

Gold Squadron w/ ion turret, hull upgrade

Gold Squadron w/ ion turret, hull upgrade

Bandit Squadron

Bandit Squadron

Bandit Squadron

Bandit Squadron

I mentioned this in another thread, but a list I am really enjoying right now is:

Gold Squadron w/ ion turret, hull upgrade

Gold Squadron w/ ion turret, hull upgrade

Bandit Squadron

Bandit Squadron

Bandit Squadron

Bandit Squadron

Interesting use of a 6-ship list. Though I'm not sold on the hull upgrades.

Vader as well, so that is a fair point, but ultimately it would not change the math a whole lot. Only ~58% of the crit cards (ship ones that do not immediately resolve) can be affected by R5 in the first place, so even if you slightly increase the chance of an individual damage being a crit (I used the flat 1/8), there are so many stacked conditions that the end result does not change a whole lot. A given attack needs to deliver a non-fatal crit, that crit needs to be one R5 can flip and the R5 ship needs to survive until the end of the round. These are all before you factor in the chance that you will be facing a crit-heavy squad. Maybe then you could get to .7 or .8 at a stretch, but that still leaves R5 as an inefficient use of point, albeit a minor one. When I ran my estimate, I also attached weight to the various crit cards that could be flipped, which worked in R5's favor, and he still came up short.

I'm assuming you used either the hull upgrade or the shield upgrade as a reference.. Did you include the preconditions that both of those are only worth anything if you're only EXACTLY killed, or left with 1 hull? Since you're including the preconditions that the Y wing needs to live to the end of the round, you should also include those that say the the HU made a difference.

I don't think double ion lists will get out of Day One at nationals. Not enough firepower. The problem with ships that get ioned is that they still can shoot back (and take actions). The opening round of firing probably will take out one of the double ion ships. Then the rest of the opposing squad becomes too much for one ion ship to handle. Your second list is particularly vulnerable because it only has three ships.

As for your first list, your attackers' PS is kinda low. Tarn is PS3, Blue Sq. is PS2. One of them could easily get wasted before getting the chance to shoot. That's against PS4 Rebels, Black Sq., named Phantoms, named Firesprays, named Falcons, etc.

Also, I'm becoming very intrigued with the Ion Cannon option. One of the problems I saw in W3 double ion lists was not enough consistent damage capability to deal with swarms and double YT builds. And I see that still being a problem with W4 against some lists.

But if you go with an ICT from a Y (or HWK) coupled with an Ion Cannon B wing, you now have the flexibility of a 3 strength primary, or a Ion Cannon with the B. Take the primary against Falcons unless ioning it would put him in a bad spot... Take the ion against a phantom because you're unlikely to do >1 damage.

Come across a swarm, and use the primary.. all you need is 1 ion to disrupt the swarm. See an XXBB list? Ion both of those Bs off the board. Interceptor PTL swarm? Take some ion tokens to go with those stress tokens... I could see the IC on the B wing being a great asset in W4, mainly because there are SO many different list types out there right now and it grants you the flexibility to be good against any of them, for only 3 points.

I mentioned this in another thread, but a list I am really enjoying right now is:

Gold Squadron w/ ion turret, hull upgrade

Gold Squadron w/ ion turret, hull upgrade

Bandit Squadron

Bandit Squadron

Bandit Squadron

Bandit Squadron

Interesting use of a 6-ship list. Though I'm not sold on the hull upgrades.

I like the hull upgrades because the Y-wings are essential for a list like this to take on phantoms, YT-1300s, etc. Every hull point helps. However, an easy alternate to the hull upgrades is to give each Y-wing an R2 unit and upgrade the 4 Z-95s to Talas.

I'm telling ya..outmaneuver through the use of R2-D6 on Dutch means it's a 3D phantom and a 2D squint. You most likely make that shot TLed and depending on the circumstance in my list, you may even be able to sneak a free focus in from Cracken if it's not best used elsewhere.

Fun to mess with, but I've not had a chance to play with it a lot.