So when I first started this game, I fell in love with TIE Swarm. And despite what some people think, it is not the ‘easy-button’ or ‘instant win’ squad everyone tries to make it out to be. Truly good TIE Swarms players require a high level of skill as it take quite a bit of thought and planning to fly that squad well.

So of course with the introduction of the TIE Phantom, I like many TIE Swarm players put most of my TIEs back on the shelf to try to combat the Phantom Menace, knowing that they didn’t stand a chance versus the Phantom. Right??? The internet told me so, so it must be true! And it has been working for the most part but I keep finding myself thinking, ‘I really think my TIE Swarm could beat this ship, all I have to do is fly smarter!’

And then I started looking at the most recent Regional’s results, with YTs winning everywhere and my TIEs on the shelf started screaming at me ‘WE EAT YTs for BREAKFAST, play us!’

So, the question to the masses is: Is TIE Swarm really dead and stands no chance against a TIE Phantom list? I am starting to think no!

So the theory behind this is that TIE Formation flying against a Phantom is dead. I would agree, a Phantom would chew that list alive. However, it is still VERY viable against EVERYONE ELSE in the game! So, as long as you are not matched up against a TIE Phantom, you just keep on keeping on man!

So what to do when you inevitably face off against the elite Phantom list? I am thinking, break up the formation and fly traps to pinch the Phantom! Ok, so I know what you are thinking. A TIE Swarm that isn’t flying in formation doesn’t benefit from Howlrunner’s ability and is arguably weaker. I agree, however I would counter that thinking by stating that even in its weakened state, it is still much better than most three-four ship builds when flown correctly. Plus good TIE Swarm players know how to fly without Howl, she usually dies first anyway, right!

So, how do we beat the Phantom you ask? Simple, why do turrets work against Phantoms? Because no matter where they go, the Phantom is getting shot at from somewhere. If you were to fly seven or even eight ships all over the board, you could set up firing arcs everywhere. You could fly that Phantom into a corner and throw dice at it unless it goes away.

This is just my thought process right now, I’d love to hear what you all have to say.

Thanks!

If you're a good player. Please try it. I want to know if it really can work. I love my generics.

I just see a build problem in that the phantom will shoot first, likely down one of the APs each turn, then turtle up to 4 evade dice or simply be out of arc enough that only 1 or 2 APs have a shot. And then of course, all the APs are playing guessing games with their movement and cannot really take post positioning barrel rolls.

That said, I was playing a 5 ship vs 3 ship interceptor list last night and just having a bunch of arcs was enough to wipe out the interceptors, even with like 5 agility dice.

Is the swarm against a Phantom list really a foregone conclusion? Isn't there a way to fly the swarm so that you can nibble away at that Phantom?

Sure, it rolls four dice when cloaked, and with the ACD it's going to always be cloaked when you're firing at it. But the things about the TIE swarm is that you're rolling LOTS of dice provided that you can keep your TIEs pointed at it. At that point, it's just a matter of flying right, isn't it?

It just so happens that the Tie swarm is really good against all those anti-phantom lists. And if you think you can box in a phantom, go for it!

Run in 3-4 two-TIE elements, giving you at least near parity in local firepower and cover a large area with firing arcs.

Statistically speaking, once a Phantom is out of focus tokens it takes about 6 shots from tie fighters to bring it down.

The Tie Swarm isn't dead.

It's just no longer reliably good against every list, and sometimes it has to split up its forces to avoid Assault Missiles.

I don't believe it's dead as I saw one go undefeated at an Escalation Tournament two weeks ago! Not to mention, it was the only thing to beat me that day and it did it TWICE! Needless to say, Tie Swarms are my only fear at the moment! Sure other things have beat me along the way, but it's the only build that I can't defeat! (Besides 3 Firesprays, but there aren't many guys running that build!)

I am thinking Black Squadron pilots with Outmaneuver, as well as Howl with Outmaneuver. So that they are down to Interceptor dice and much more manageable. I am going to test this at a tournament this weekend and see how it does. I know that the Phantom will shoot first, but I still think if you throw enough dice at a Phantom it goes away real quick.

Many players in my region have swapped their seven-TIE swarms for a four-TIE "mini swarm" to go along with a flanker (Fel, a Phantom) or a heavy hitter (firespray, defender). This is because a mini swarm brings to the table the same capabilities as an old-style did; heavy-hitting jousters with lots of defense, and the ability to do some crazy blocking and open up fire arcs when the formation is broken. To this end, many players in my region have stopped using Howlrunner and brought out other TIEs, mostly Night Beast and Dark Curse, to go alongside classics like Mauler Mithel and Backstabber. These guys don't need Howlrunner there to be effective, and so when/if the squadron breaks you won't sacrifice much efficacy.

As for the fire arc thing, yes:if you don't bring turrets, the only way to beat a good Phantom player is to either beat him in he initiative game and outmaneuver the Phantom, or to have tanky ships with huge attacks. To this end, my standard tourney list has me covered. It includes two Dagger Squadron Pilots with HLC and FCS. they can alpha a careless Phantom, and can stick around for a few shots. I've learned I have to play them super-aggressively against Phantoms, my standard method of turtling with the HLCs and using two A-wings as blockers to keep enemies at R3 doesn't work against good squints and good Phantoms. Spread the fire arcs around, and don't be afraid to get up close and personal. Try to box them in. Standard blocking won't work, so use the terrain, your ships, and the board edge to your favor in preventing them from decloak img when they want to. An immobile Phantom is a dead one.

*caelenvasius*

Yeah, my current list consists of Echo with 5 Academy TIEs and it really has been doing quiet well.

*caelenvasius*

Yeah, my current list consists of Echo with 5 Academy TIEs and it really has been doing quiet well.

This is the first thing i went to when wave 4 hit, but I think whisper will wreck it. I was more worried about him than a falcon really.

what about this list?

Pre-Wave 4 Modern Swarm:

I think it is a good build at 97 points. Seem to follow the model of 4 TIEs as an anchor and a flanker in the amazing Soontir!

The Unbreaking Howlrunner Blob is dead. The TIE swarm is not. It's died out because it's no longer the netdeck, and its disappearance is a prime opportunity, people no longer expect to face it and the path is open for TIE swarmers to claim victory!

Four Academies and four Obsidians won a regional. How did they beat the phantom? My bet is because they didn't have to bunch up around the Howlmother and coated the field in arcs. Phantoms only have 4 HP and the Dice Gods won't protect them forever.

The TIE swarm was weakened when stuff was brought in to fight formations, but it was weakened into line with the rest of X-wing (Howlrunner was a little too potent). The solution is, when up against a phantom or a missile squad, to break formation, don't stay at R1 of each other.

You can also shrink the TIE swarm down to 4 or 5 and have a heavy ship too. That's a mini-swarm, and they're a good use of 50-odd points.

The problem with the TIE Swarm is the Z-95 assault missile swarm. You can't really fly in formation because Lt Blount and his pals will take out your entire swarm in a single round.

However, you can modify your swarm to NOT include Howlrunner, and instead do things like Black Squadron pilots with Predator and Outmaneuver. It allows you to fly in formation with around 6 ships, but if you face a Z-95 swarm it also allows you to spread out and still be effective.

I think it is a good build at 97 points. Seem to follow the model of 4 TIEs as an anchor and a flanker in the amazing Soontir!

What most people tend to forget it that it is still just 4 defense dice...

How did a swarm do against TIE/I with Stealth? It got hit at some point...

've lost count on how many times I lost a TIE/I with 5 dice in one hit - they will fail and they will do it every game.

So no! I don't think the swarm is dead, and it is still my favorite list to play I have however made some changes to the "standard" swarm to better be prepared for all the wave 4 content.

if anything, wave 4 strengthened the Swarm, not just TIEs, but Z95s also

The Phantom can be stopped relatively easily by parking ships to block its decloaking, then watch as it runs into rocks and such. Quite a fun scene, and it's exactly how phantom lists were demolished in the Singapore and Malaysian regionals

Then we have the falcon players attempting to stop these phantom players, and as we already know falcons falter against swarms.

granted, Predator discourages PS1 and PS2 generics, but swarms have since moved into Obsidians and Talas. Instead, the lists that could stop swarms, like XXXX or XXBB are punished due to their PS2, and moving them up to PS4 isnt feasible. Another list that could stop swarms, TIEints on PTLs, are punished severely by whatever attempts that exist to attempt to counter phantoms. These new lists that focus more on ion and stress control also tend to be weak against swarms by their very nature of being unable to dish out enough firepower nor deal effectively against lists that naturally outnumber them, so now we have a problem whereby lists that could take on the swarm are effectively neutered in the current environment

The Phantom can move to locations that Ties have a hard time getting to. That's the biggest issue with Swarm vs Phantom. From my experience, only 1 or 2 ties will be shooting the Phantom each turn, which is where it gets hard for the Ties to put out damage.

As you have basically stated, it is just harder to kill a Phantom squad with a swarm than it is for the swarm to kill other squads. They still do just as well against every other squad.

I've not flown against a Phantom yet, but I have been a fan of 8xAP swarm.

Lately however I've found myself using 4/5 APs and a Defender. Oppos have generally picked one to go for giving the one lot some breathing room.

Phantoms look tricky but at the moment I'm not scared!

And this is why I am thinking that if flown smart, a TIE Swarm could hold its own still. I guess my point was that I do not think that they are as dead as everyone seems to think that they are. More so in the heavy YT meta we now live in, they excel in that environment!

Many players in my region have swapped their seven-TIE swarms for a four-TIE "mini swarm" to go along with a flanker (Fel, a Phantom) or a heavy hitter (firespray, defender). This is because a mini swarm brings to the table the same capabilities as an old-style did; heavy-hitting jousters with lots of defense, and the ability to do some crazy blocking and open up fire arcs when the formation is broken. To this end, many players in my region have stopped using Howlrunner and brought out other TIEs, mostly Night Beast and Dark Curse, to go alongside classics like Mauler Mithel and Backstabber. These guys don't need Howlrunner there to be effective, and so when/if the squadron breaks you won't sacrifice much efficacy.

As for the fire arc thing, yes:if you don't bring turrets, the only way to beat a good Phantom player is to either beat him in he initiative game and outmaneuver the Phantom, or to have tanky ships with huge attacks. To this end, my standard tourney list has me covered. It includes two Dagger Squadron Pilots with HLC and FCS. they can alpha a careless Phantom, and can stick around for a few shots. I've learned I have to play them super-aggressively against Phantoms, my standard method of turtling with the HLCs and using two A-wings as blockers to keep enemies at R3 doesn't work against good squints and good Phantoms. Spread the fire arcs around, and don't be afraid to get up close and personal. Try to box them in. Standard blocking won't work, so use the terrain, your ships, and the board edge to your favor in preventing them from decloak img when they want to. An immobile Phantom is a dead one.

I agree - I've also started pondering the mini-swarm list. I think the issue is what to add to it. I personally like a Doom shuttle because 'eff those Phantoms. If I get you in my arc, you're dead.

4 x BSP + Predator

1 x Cpt Yorr + Vader + Gunner

I don't think the swarm is dead. I think 1 dimensional tactics with a swarm is dead. The days of just playing a bunch of ships and flying them in a formation is dead, and I'm happy about this. You will have to adjust your play style and approach against different squads. With swarms having to deal with super ships like the Phantom it will ultimately make those swarm players better. Swarms are incredible efficient, so that will always give you a chance.

Here's my Mixed Mayhem swarm. I fly these in 2 groups of 3. It gives me some stress mechanics and a little extra punch with the Alpha's. Predator scares me but this is only a first draft.

x2 Scimitars x2 Flechette Torps

x2 Alpha Squadron Pilots

x2 AP

That's a really interesting build man! I am going to have to try that!

The problem with the TIE Swarm is the Z-95 assault missile swarm. You can't really fly in formation because Lt Blount and his pals will take out your entire swarm in a single round.

However, you can modify your swarm to NOT include Howlrunner, and instead do things like Black Squadron pilots with Predator and Outmaneuver. It allows you to fly in formation with around 6 ships, but if you face a Z-95 swarm it also allows you to spread out and still be effective.

This is not even remotely a problem. First off no one is playing assault missles. And even if they do, without howlrunner it can be negated. Black squadrons with pred or w/e will get murdered by phantoms. And may even lack the punch after a couple of rounds to finish off a wounded falcon. But 5-6 loose ties would be very easy for phantom. It is ALL about numbers with the phantoms. Even enough to give up on the mighty howlrunner.

I played 8 ties in georgia, and round 2 faced 3 assault missile z-95s. They did a total of like 3 damage. I was able to spread the ties enough that they were essentially only in pairs. And it is easy to kill the Zs so they had only one good round to try to use them.

If the world was still dominated by howlrunner 7 tie, and biggs 4-5 ship rebel, assault missiles would be good (and only because now they would be much cheaper than before when this was the case). But phantoms have already decided we tie swarmers aren't allowed to have howlrunner.