I love that this started as a discussion an argument over Stay on Target

Then changed into why you can't cloak/decloak/quack like a duck twice

Now it's turned into the TIE Advanced discussion

Did we skip how turrets ruin everything? Or did I just miss that?

So what's next?

my reasoning is that, at least with Vader, we have a pilot with a naturally high ps, which seems to be what this card is made for. Second, it's cheap, so while the Advanced is reputedly not cost effective, at least you add an impressive ability - to a pilot who can really use it - for not very many points. Third, the Advanced is seen as rather weak on firepower; with the SoT-ability you can presumably keep enemies in your sights more consistently, which might mitigate the low firepower over the course of a game.

All correct. But none of it really fixes the drawbacks, and if you're talking Vader there are other options (better options) for increasing the firepower (Predator/Outmaneuver) or maneuverability (Engine Upgrade, Daredevil, even Adrenaline Rush).

Okay, but do those solutions not cost more?

Vader hates stress.

hates it.

It costs him twice as much as any other pilot to take a stress.

So, you're saying Vader definitely flies casual.

Vader hates stress.

hates it.

It costs him twice as much as any other pilot to take a stress.

So, you're saying Vader definitely flies casual.

Dude doesn't even wear pants.

I love that this started as a discussion an argument over Stay on Target

Then changed into why you can't cloak/decloak/quack like a duck twice

Now it's turned into the TIE Advanced discussion

Did we skip how turrets ruin everything? Or did I just miss that?

So what's next?

Probably Star Destroyers.

Okay, but do those solutions not cost more?

They don't, but they give more bang for the buck.

Stay on Target will at most let Vader take more shots then he might otherwise, but he's still only shooting with 2 red dice, plus now he's stressed so he can't take any actions.

If you have Advanced Sensors and a cloak token, revealing your dial triggers both. You can execute the effects in any order, so you can spend your cloak token and then use the Sensors to activate the cloak action.

If you have Advanced Sensors and no cloak token, revealing your dial triggers the Sensors. You can use them to perform the cloak action, but the cloak token you take doesn't travel back in time to have been present when you revealed your dial.

So the cloaking happening as a result of the Advanced Sensors separates it from the timing enough that whatever check is looking for the cloak token doesn't happen preemptively? I can buy that. Makes as much sense as anything in this mush.

Okay, but do those solutions not cost more?

They don't, but they give more bang for the buck.Stay on Target will at most let Vader take more shots then he might otherwise, but he's still only shooting with 2 red dice, plus now he's stressed so he can't take any actions.

Proton rockets are better for making Vader more popular.

If you have Advanced Sensors and a cloak token, revealing your dial triggers both. You can execute the effects in any order, so you can spend your cloak token and then use the Sensors to activate the cloak action.

If you have Advanced Sensors and no cloak token, revealing your dial triggers the Sensors. You can use them to perform the cloak action, but the cloak token you take doesn't travel back in time to have been present when you revealed your dial.

So the cloaking happening as a result of the Advanced Sensors separates it from the timing enough that whatever check is looking for the cloak token doesn't happen preemptively? I can buy that. Makes as much sense as anything in this mush.

Yeah--I think triggers are events, not windows. One of my "when I get around to it" projects is seeing what breaks if you treat X-wing as having a sort of branching queue rather than a stack: here, the trigger creates a new queue, but the trigger itself doesn't persist.

I love that this started as a discussion an argument over Stay on Target

Then changed into why you can't cloak/decloak/quack like a duck twice

Now it's turned into the TIE Advanced discussion

Did we skip how turrets ruin everything? Or did I just miss that?

So what's next?

Probably Star Destroyers.

Or lunch discussion

So the cloaking happening as a result of the Advanced Sensors separates it from the timing enough that whatever check is looking for the cloak token doesn't happen preemptively? I can buy that. Makes as much sense as anything in this mush.

The whatever check would be the "immediately before revealing its maneuver dial." Does it have a cloak token at that point? Yes? Then you can decloak and take an action, or take an action and then decloak. Does it have a cloak token at that point? No? Then you can't decloak, you can only take an action. Strange, I feel like I've been down this very same road before...

If you have Advanced Sensors and a cloak token, revealing your dial triggers both. You can execute the effects in any order, so you can spend your cloak token and then use the Sensors to activate the cloak action.

If you have Advanced Sensors and no cloak token, revealing your dial triggers the Sensors. You can use them to perform the cloak action, but the cloak token you take doesn't travel back in time to have been present when you revealed your dial.

So the cloaking happening as a result of the Advanced Sensors separates it from the timing enough that whatever check is looking for the cloak token doesn't happen preemptively? I can buy that. Makes as much sense as anything in this mush.

Yeah--I think triggers are events, not windows. One of my "when I get around to it" projects is seeing what breaks if you treat X-wing as having a sort of branching queue rather than a stack: here, the trigger creates a new queue, but the trigger itself doesn't persist.

I think it has some problems with the wording in this case (the decloak opportunity doesn't actually depend on having a token - by the text the opportunity to spend the token is always there) but it's not a bad way to think about it.

Edit: To clarify, I think it works fine for explaining why you can decloak then use Advanced Sensors to recloak, but it doesn't really help much with the decloaking ruling because of the terminology used.

Okay, but do those solutions not cost more?

They don't, but they give more bang for the buck.

Stay on Target will at most let Vader take more shots then he might otherwise, but he's still only shooting with 2 red dice, plus now he's stressed so he can't take any actions.

Well, I guess a good use of the ability will also allow you to dodge some fire. And naturally, one would want to plan one's flying so that the stress is immediately removed next round. But okay, I sense that it's back to the drawing board...

Hey, you! Yeah, you guys up on page 1215! Is the fighting over yet? I'm still on page 10 and I feel like I'm reading the Rules thread (shudder). Let me know when it's resolved, okay?

EDIT: Holy cow! Page 15? Didn't expect that at all.

Is the fighting over yet?

I think so yes.

Is the fighting over yet?

I think so yes.

NO IT'S NOT, YA EWOK FACED TURKEY!

NO IT'S NOT, YA EWOK FACED TURKEY!

Oh jeeze, now there's a conundrum. How do you eat something so delicious with such a cute face? That's like offering free bacon outside of a synagogue.

Make up your mind. Is it a timing issue, or a once per opportunity issue?

Bloody hell, you can't follow your own arguments, even when I quote them for you. How do you expect anyone else to?

Hint for the clueless: "once per opportunity" IS a timing issue because it says that an opportunity is a one-time event that possibly triggers other events and then immediately ends, not an extended period of time in which you can keep using a card (or deciding not to use it) as many times as you like before you allow the opportunity to end.

Hint for the clueless: "once per opportunity" IS a timing issue because it says that an opportunity is a one-time event that possibly triggers other events and then immediately ends, not an extended period of time in which you can keep using a card (or deciding not to use it) as many times as you like before you allow the opportunity to end.

No it doesn't. Want a quote, or can you re-read the FAQ on your own?

Here, I'll be semi-sporting:

Q: If a ship has more than one copy of the same card that does not require an action to trigger its ability, can it trigger all of those card abilities?

A: Yes. For example, when a ship equipped with two Mercenary Copilots is attacking, it can change two [hit] results to two [crit] results.

No it doesn't. Want a quote, or can you re-read the FAQ on your own?

Here, I'll be semi-sporting:

Q: If a ship has more than one copy of the same card that does not require an action to trigger its ability, can it trigger all of those card abilities?

A: Yes. For example, when a ship equipped with two Mercenary Copilots is attacking, it can change two [hit] results to two [crit] results.

Hmm, certainly seems like you can have multiple triggered effects for one event/opportunity.

I'm going to make an exception to my "ignore the troll" rule because explaining this will be helpful to other people:

I never said that opportunities only allow one card to happen. In fact, I specifically stated that eventS may trigger when an opportunity occurs. So nothing in my post contradicts the FAQ, the "when attacking" opportunity occurs, both copilots trigger, and then the "when attacking" opportunity ends. You then resolve the copilots (and any other relevant effects), but the opportunity that triggered them is over. You can't decline to use a copilot, start dealing damage cards, and then decide "oh wait, I wanted to make that one a crit instead" and insist that it be dealt face up.

In general terms, this is the sequence of events:

1) Opportunity X occurs.

2) Declare all "when X" things you want to do.

3) Opportunity X ends.

4) Resolve the declared things in your choice of order.

Cloak-decloak never worked because it violated this rule. The "immediately before your dial" opportunity occurs, you declare you will be using advanced sensors (and can not declare that you will decloak because you are not cloaked), and then the opportunity ends when you start resolving advanced sensors. You can't go back and say "but it's still immediately before I reveal my dial" so that you can decloak, the opportunity is over.

In general terms, this is the sequence of events:

1) Opportunity X occurs.

2) Declare all "when X" things you want to do.

3) Opportunity X ends.

4) Resolve the declared things in your choice of order.

Cloak-decloak never worked because it violated this rule. The "immediately before your dial" opportunity occurs, you declare you will be using advanced sensors (and can not declare that you will decloak because you are not cloaked), and then the opportunity ends when you start resolving advanced sensors. You can't go back and say "but it's still immediately before I reveal my dial" so that you can decloak, the opportunity is over.

And this still has absolutely nothing to do with the once per opportunity rule. It doesn't matter how many times you could have taken the opportunity, if it wasn't an option.

And this still has absolutely nothing to do with the once per opportunity rule. It doesn't matter how many times you could have taken the opportunity, if it wasn't an option.

It does, because there are two separate "justifications" for why cloak-decloak worked:

1) Cheat the timing so that you're cloaked before the decloak opportunity ends.

and/or

2) Break the "once per opportunity" rule by deciding not to decloak and then going back to change that decision.

I'm going to be devils advocate here and question everything behind the idea behind this card. On the surface fet has been doing this a long time and it didn't see that much use, now I question this card.

I'm gonna get shouted down for this but here I go. I have had mixed ideas about the authors articles before, the advice I have see too many people use and if you have read the article you know what's coming and I have used that to my advantage many of times. I'm gonna say it now this is a rebel card ( I play both and have just a local with rebels), astomecs can be equipped to a lot of rebel ships that are generics and non ginerics with no EPT , so for 2 pts you get SOT and what is it 1pt for the astromec for the talent. Can't see how this card is realy just for elite pilots, this can be a big buff for the use of say bigs to change his position to be at range 3 and wot not.

Imperials have good mobility already this does negate that a fair amount, plus I'm not convinced many imperials would want to swap there EPT for this. So my questions realy is who gets the most reward out of this card?

I'm going to be devils advocate here and question everything behind the idea behind this card. On the surface fet has been doing this a long time and it didn't see that much use, now I question this card.

1) Fett never interacted with Phantoms before.

2) Swapping banks isn't nearly as handy as swapping all maneuvers.

Generics get no benefit because the card does absolutely nothing if your pilot skill is lower than the opponent's.

As it stands now Boba Fett gets more benefit out of Stay on Target, at less cost, than any other pilot in the game. Hard to say if this will remain the case at/after release.