Why the "that hits" restriction? You massively reduce the viability of support secondary weapons in the fire link (Ion Cannon, Ion Pulse Missile, Flechette Torpedo, Flechette Cannon) by making them even less likely to hit by reducing their chance to fire in the first place.

Because it's not intended to be a carbon copy of the BTL-A4 upgrade. Instead, this is essentially a risk/reward mechanic. You can still fire missiles and cannons on their own if you want to - OR you can attempt to double up and fire BOTH your primary and secondary weapons in the same turn, but you need to hit with your primary first in order to do so.

If you just want to Ion a target, fine, just fire your Ion Cannon. If you just want to fire your Concussion Missiles, fine, just fire your Concussion Missiles.

But if you want to potentially do shed loads of damage, fire your primary weapon instead... and then, IF it hits, you get to perform a free second attack (again, provided you still have the required target lock/focus token when it comes to missiles).

Notice this also makes the Gunboats much more effective against slower, low agility targets than it does against fast, high agility targets - which is both thematic and helps balance the upgrade.

I disagree that the secondary failing to fire if the primary misses (and given that Fire Link involves firing the weapons simultaneously, retroactively failing to have fired) is thematic. Although to be fair nor is BTL-A4 being able to shoot two targets.

Here's an idea for a firelink that prevents the use of damage cannons.

Linked Fire Array

"After you perform an secondary weapon attack that hits, you may cancel all dice results. After this attack you may perform a primary weapon attack against the same target."

Seems useless? It is with Heavy Laser Cannon and Mangler Cannon unless you miss. However, it doesn't affect Ion Cannon, Flechette Cannon or Ion Pulse Missile at all. Assault Missile sort of works although usually the four dice from the rocket itself will be better than a follow up primary attack.

The issue is that it doesn't work with damage missiles.

(Using the Accuracy Corrector precedent here, in that you must trigger the first step to trigger the second.)

Swap the second part to "If you do, you may perform a primary weapon attack against the same target.", otherwise the "may cancel" allows you to ignore cancellation and keep the cannon damage.

Alternatively, "Then you may perform" should do the same.

Bloody elegant, though.

I'm not trying to break apart the game's mechanics to implement things that are already implemented in the game.

There is precedent for both the upgrade cards I've suggested. Cards which allow a ship to equip a particular item that's not on it's standard upgrade bar have been done by FFG before. Cards which allow the modification of attacks or additional attacks have been done by FFG before. Neither in this particular format, but they've been done. Neither are "breaking apart the game's mechanics".

However, if you want to see a real example of a suggestion which "breaks apart the game's mechanics to implement things that are already implemented in the game", I refer you once again to the suggested TIE Defender Pilot Card you posted above. There's absolutely zero precedence in the game for having multiple primary weapons on a pilot card - yet that's what you suggested.

I figured I'd stick with FFG's classically ambiguous phrasing on effects like that.

An alternative that allows damage effects:

Fire Linked Cannons
Cost X, where X is the cost of the equipped cannon upgrade
Once per round, after you perform an attack, you may perform a [CANNON] secondary weapon attack.

This one works on HLC, but will set you back 14 points. The problem with this one is that Ion and Mangler are pretty close. I doubt it'll result in many HLC Gunboats but Manglers would probably outnumber Ions. It makes Flechette Cannon pretty attractive though.

It can also trigger off of missiles.

I think I still prefer the original in post #401 though.

I'm not sure there's an elegant wording to cost it at * and still have space on the card for the effect.

I seriously don't understand what was wrong with a cannon upgrade that was just an Ion cannon that fired in addition to your primary weapon.

I don't even understand why this stuff about firing primary weapon and missiles is being introduced to the discussion, as that was not something the gunboat could do.

There is precedent for both the upgrade cards I've suggested. Cards which allow a ship to equip a particular item that's not on it's standard upgrade bar have been done by FFG before.

Yes, but it's ridiculous that a cannon slot wouldn't be on the Gunboat's standard upgrade bar when Ion Cannons were standard on the Gunboat.

No ****. That's because it wasn't a suggestion FOR this game. It was a suggestion for a hypothetical game where cannons and turrets weren't upgrade cards. That game doesn't even exist, so OF COURSE it would break this game.

No I didn't. Because the game is way beyond the point where that would be a viable suggestion. I was saying that I WISH that that was how they HAD done it back when they were making the game.

Yes, but it's ridiculous that a cannon slot wouldn't be on the Gunboat's standard upgrade bar when Ion Cannons were standard on the Gunboat.

It's not ridiculous from a design perspective if they wanted to limit cannon type usage somehow, because without an upgrade card there's really no good way to get that text in there. Reference card and changing something on the card is less efficient from a production standpoint as well.

It's not ridiculous from a design perspective if they wanted to limit cannon type usage somehow

Granted, but why is that even a thing? Why would different cannon types be problematic on a Gunboat when they aren't on any other ship with a cannon slot?

please don't use "problematic", that triggers me and you should feel ashamed of yourself for making this an unsafe space for people with PTSD such as myself

Generally-speaking, the closest analogue to the Gunboat is the B-wing, which /is/ a "load any cannon" sort of ship. One way to make the factions distinct would be designing the Gunboat into a support role as opposed to a heavy attacker like the B-wing.

Now, limiting the cannons isn't the only way to do that, but it's the most functional we've figured out so far, if FFG comes up with something better I'm all for it.

I seriously don't understand what was wrong with a cannon upgrade that was just an Ion cannon that fired in addition to your primary weapon.

Really? It doesn't come across that way.

I don't even understand why this stuff about firing primary weapon and missiles is being introduced to the discussion, as that was not something the gunboat could do.

Assault Gunboats weren't armed with Heavy Laser Cannons either, but you seem OK with that possibility.

Yes, but it's ridiculous that a cannon slot wouldn't be on the Gunboat's standard upgrade bar when Ion Cannons were standard on the Gunboat.

No, what's ridiculous is the Gunboat being able to take a Heavy Laser Cannon when it's armament was pretty much standardized as two laser cannons/two ion cannons. And most of your arguments to the contrary.

I guess I just don't see the purpose in THAT. Especially when the whole reason that the Gunboat was added to TIE Fighter in the first place was so that Imperials could do the things that the Rebels used Y-Wings and B-Wings for. Going out of your way to distinguish it from ships it was specifically designed to emulate in the first place just seems pointless.

No, what's ridiculous is the Gunboat being able to take a Heavy Laser Cannon when it's armament was pretty much standardized as two laser cannons/two ion cannons.

And it's equally ridiculous that the TIE Defender can do the exact same thing, when it's armament was equally standarized. But, again, THAT'S THE WAY THEY MADE THE GAME.

I'm not saying it's not dumb, and that I don't like it, but I think changing the way it works JUST for the Gunboat is even dumber. If they're going to completely change the way it works, it should be changed for ALL the ships that worked that way, not just the Gunboat,

And if they aren't going to change it for the other ships, than there's no reason the Gunboat should get to be the exception.

Look, we get it, your TIEfu has to be more special than the other TIEs, and /certainly/ more special than some dirty non-TIE that can't hold a candle to Sienar Frat-bro Systems most drunk creations.

That doesn't in any way mean FFG won't snowflake the Gunboat like they do plenty of other ships, or don't they invent new firing arcs and upgrade types and actions out of thin air?

I agree with Ender in that implementing the Ion Cannon upgrade onto the Gunboat in a way that flat out prevents the other cannons kind of goes against the game's "hardpoints" design. That, and banning the HLC is easy. It's far more interesting to find a way to disincentivise it while keeping the option open, especially on a 2 attack ship.


Tipperary, how about this one?

I've changed the phrasing of "after you perform an attack that hits" to "when you perform an attack that hits" so that it triggers during the attack. Otherwise it didn't work. I thought of it while designing the card, so I'm not sure why the version I posted had that error in it.

Linked Fire Array
"Once per round, when you perform an attack that hits, you may cancel all dice results. If so, after this attack you may perform a attack against the same target with a [M], [T] or primary weapon."

The previous one allowed IPM, Ion Torpedoes, Assault Missiles, Flechette Torpedo, Ion Cannon or Flechette Cannon into a primary. This one allows you to follow up with ordnance, making it much more attractive on a ship that might otherwise have not bothered. The only potential broken is the double IPM or Ion Cannon/IPM attack which will completely shut down huge ships.

If it's not a system it also has a really nice synergy with Fire Control System.

And it's equally ridiculous that the TIE Defender can do the exact same thing, when it's armament was equally standarized.

Wow, we agree on something. I'm amazed.

But, again, THAT'S THE WAY THEY MADE THE GAME.

Yep. That's the way they made the game, the game they improve, modify and expand upon with each passing expansion that's released. If that's the sum total of your argument, we wouldn't have received any expansions past the starter set because THAT'S THE WAY THEY MADE THE GAEM!!!!1!ONE!!

I'm not saying it's not dumb, and that I don't like it, but I think changing the way it works JUST for the Gunboat is even dumber.

Like the way they retroactively changed turrets JUST for the Y-Wings, you mean? You're saying that was a dumb move too?

If they're going to completely change the way it works, it should be changed for ALL the ships that worked that way, not just the Gunboat,

And if they aren't going to change it for the other ships, than there's no reason the Gunboat should get to be the exception.

BTL-A4 title should be usable by the HWK-190 - you heard it here first, people! And TIE Interceptors shouldn't be able to take two modifications, because ALL SHIPS MUST WERK THE SAEM!!!1111!111ELEVEN!!!

*sigh* I really don't think you understand how this game works, DEX.

Come to think of it, it is odd how a standardised swarm craft (the TIE interceptor) is the most modifiable craft in the game.

I'm not saying it's not dumb, and that I don't like it, but I think changing the way it works JUST for the Gunboat is even dumber. If they're going to completely change the way it works, it should be changed for ALL the ships that worked that way, not just the Gunboat,

And if they aren't going to change it for the other ships, than there's no reason the Gunboat should get to be the exception.

For the simple reason that the others have already been printed.

^FFG are bad at game design, let me tell you hwhat is objectively the only way to stat the TIE Interceptor:

4 (it has four lasers, twice as many as the TIE/LN)

4 (it's harder to hit than a TIE/LN due to the smaller profile)

3 (same hull as a TIE/LN)

3 (there was this one book I read where a squadron of Interceptors all had shield generators

(oh wait, I'm parodying BKL now)

Come to think of it, it is odd how a standardised swarm craft (the TIE interceptor) is the most modifiable craft in the game.

It is quite odd, but there's no denying it makes the ship bloody good fun to fly!

It also makes it a better TIE avenger than the TIE advanced with the right mods.

Like the way they retroactively changed turrets JUST for the Y-Wings, you mean? You're saying that was a dumb move too?

Because they retroactively changed the turrets on those Y-Wings in-universe. The card is emulating something from the lore.

Again, those cards all accurately represent ships from the lore.

You know what accurately represents a Gunboat? A cannon slot, and an Ion Cannon card.

Or better yet, this.

It is quite odd, but there's no denying it makes the ship bloody good fun to fly!

You know what? Because of that thing you say there, I sincerely hope that FFG actually comes with shomething we had not really thought of and really gives the Gunboat a twist no other craft has.

BTL-A4 is nice, but it is also unique to the Y-Wing. It gives it character. I don't want the Gunboat to be "just" the imperial Y-Wing, even if it was in the PC sims.

The other main reason the Gunboat was introduced was that the imperials needed a hypercapable ship, maybe they could surprise us with something related to that, that makes the ship super fun to play with!

It is quite odd, but there's no denying it makes the ship bloody good fun to fly!

You know what? Because of that thing you say there, I sincerely hope that FFG actually comes with shomething we had not really thought of and really gives the Gunboat a twist no other craft has.

BTL-A4 is nice, but it is also unique to the Y-Wing. It gives it character. I don't want the Gunboat to be "just" the imperial Y-Wing, even if it was in the PC sims.

The other main reason the Gunboat was introduced was that the imperials needed a hypercapable ship, maybe they could surprise us with something related to that, that makes the ship super fun to play with!

To blow my own trumpet again, here's the modified version of FTS's firelink.

"Once per round, when you perform an attack that hits, you may cancel all dice results. If so, after this attack you may perform a attack against the same target with a [M], [T] or primary weapon."

It shares BTL-A4's double attack, but it works in practice very differently. While you could just play it as a reverse BTL-A4 with more range, you've got the risk of the primary failing to trigger the secondary, reducing range. BTL-A4 has higher damage options (Blaster, Ion, Twin Laser, Autoblaster) and greater reliability (it lacks the hit clause), whereas Fire Linked Array only works on support effects and if those effects miss there's no follow up attack. It also interacts with ordnance, giving it tricks the Y-wing lacks.

Assault Gunboat

It is quite odd, but there's no denying it makes the ship bloody good fun to fly!

You know what? Because of that thing you say there, I sincerely hope that FFG actually comes with shomething we had not really thought of and really gives the Gunboat a twist no other craft has.

BTL-A4 is nice, but it is also unique to the Y-Wing. It gives it character. I don't want the Gunboat to be "just" the imperial Y-Wing, even if it was in the PC sims.

The other main reason the Gunboat was introduced was that the imperials needed a hypercapable ship, maybe they could surprise us with something related to that, that makes the ship super fun to play with!

To blow my own trumpet again, here's the modified version of FTS's firelink.

"Once per round, when you perform an attack that hits, you may cancel all dice results. If so, after this attack you may perform a attack against the same target with a [M], [T] or primary weapon."

It shares BTL-A4's double attack, but it works in practice very differently. While you could just play it as a reverse BTL-A4 with more range, you've got the risk of the primary failing to trigger the secondary, reducing range. BTL-A4 has higher damage options (Blaster, Ion, Twin Laser, Autoblaster) and greater reliability (it lacks the hit clause), whereas Fire Linked Array only works on support effects and if those effects miss there's no follow up attack. It also interacts with ordnance, giving it tricks the Y-wing lacks.

It's like a weird Gunner, only that instead of it triggering when you miss, you need to cancel your damage for it to trigger.

If the Gunboat can equip a Fire Control System, it kind of partially solves the action economy problem with ordnance. The problem is that you will want to have a Focus or TL for both the first and second attack to make most of it, because the first attack MUST hit, even if it deals no dice damage, so that it feeds a TL to your second attack.

It can be quite interesting with something like Flechette Cannon plus Ion Pulse Missiles, or Ion cannon with Flechette Torpedoes.

However, I cannot but think that this is done better and easier with a B-Wing with Ion Cannon and Tactician, or a Y-Wing with Ion Turret and R3-A2.

It's like a weird Gunner, only that instead of it triggering when you miss, you need to cancel your damage for it to trigger.

Cancel your dice. Any effect that cancels dice and then deals damage (such as Ion Cannon) still triggers at full power.

You know what? Because of that thing you say there, I sincerely hope that FFG actually comes with shomething we had not really thought of and really gives the Gunboat a twist no other craft has.

You're not the only one. I'm sure FFG still has plenty of tricks up their sleeves for future releases. They're certainly not afraid to drift away from their original formulas and think outside the box when it comes to new releases and new game mechanics, anyway.

As long as it's released...