Does WotC show the Lucrehulk with fighters? IIRC, it's supposed to hold more than one thousand droid starfighters.

Yeah its kind of funny the the essential guide to warfare describes Imperials disliking starfighter based warfare because the CIS used it when most Clone Wars era CIS fighters were cheap superiority models or cheap bombers like the early TIE series. Really the capabilities of the models used by the Republic fighter corps were closer to the selection used by the rebellion than the Imperial developed models

I wouldn't necessarily see those points as mutually exclusive. Perhaps the Republic Navy only developed those superior starfighters to "stem the tide" against the endless swarms of Confederacy fighters (having more materiel than actual pilots), but when the threat was passed they saw fit to finally apply the doctrine we know.

Likewise, it could simply be humans being humans, applying flawed logic and ignoring lessons from history in the pursuit of what they believe is best. On paper, it does sound pretty neat, after all. As long as you're the commander of a capital ship (and thus a member of the "caste" that gets to call the shots on how the Navy operates) rather than a mere pilot.

As for the Providence class, I think this depends entirely on how exactly you are fielding it. WOTC has pointed out that these ships can be modified into a starfighter carrier role by expanding their hangars and equipment. Failing that, simply group them with fighter carriers like the Lucrehulk, which is capable of throwing an astonishing 1.500 droid starfighters into battle.

It could be a consequence of the CIS usually just not bothering with any number of fighters below several hundred, as they're all about quantity over quantity. So barring exceptional circumstances, basing a battlegroup around one or two Lucrehulks as dedicated carriers might seem more sound than bothering to attach "only" a few dozen fighters to a multi-role ship which then has to sacrifice efficiency on some other sector.

That, or it's because the CIS was led by politicians rather than military geniuses.

Yup.

Secret Starfighter Projects of the Galactic Civil War

Like this, see:-

People cannot get enough of this stuff.

See also Area 51:-

http://www.vplay.ro/watch/nvt7t6r7/

I think we can assume that the Alliance will set up the defected Incom design team in a remote facility similar to Paradise Ranch/Dreamland/Groom Lake while they work on Black Projects for the Rebels.

--

I know but it just seems so odd. If they were a new power recently encountered by the known galaxy with their own design traditions it would make sense but they aren't.

Technically speaking ... aren't they, in a sense? The CIS armed forces are, in essence, corporate security . Nightwatch in Space. Whatever vessels they have were either repurposed merchantmen or convoy escorts, and they have very little experience in actual military designs that are meant for full scale war as opposed to discouraging pirate raids on profitable shipping lanes or faking a show of force.

If I remember correctly, the Lucrehulk was originally a bulk freighter, and the Banking Clan frigates are communication ships. None of these were really built for war - they were just thrust into a military role because the CIS did not have sufficient ships that would be better. Which might explain why the various refits such as the Invisible Hand, and entirely new designs such as the Subjugator-class do include starfighter bays, as opposed to the older semi-civilian vessels.

The Republic military was similarly out of date and impractical, with the Navy reduced to diplomatic and police functions. All the nice military hardware we see kicking ass and taking names? New stuff commissioned in secrecy, but nothing any of the Republic's member world had access to earlier.

Mind you, if it were up to me , I'd have put some fighters on there, too - I'm just attempting to rationalise because I think it's possible to do so, and out of a slight bias in favour of those books.

I know but it just seems so odd. If they were a new power recently encountered by the known galaxy with their own design traditions it would make sense but they aren't.

Technically speaking ... aren't they, in a sense? The CIS armed forces are, in essence, corporate security . Nightwatch in Space. Whatever vessels they have were either repurposed merchantmen or convoy escorts, and they have very little experience in actual military designs that are meant for full scale war as opposed to discouraging pirate raids on profitable shipping lanes or faking a show of force.

If I remember correctly, the Lucrehulk was originally a bulk freighter, and the Banking Clan frigates are communication ships. None of these were really built for war - they were just thrust into a military role because the CIS did not have sufficient ships that would be better. Which might explain why the various refits such as the Invisible Hand, and entirely new designs such as the Subjugator-class do include starfighter bays, as opposed to the older semi-civilian vessels.

The Republic military was similarly out of date and impractical, with the Navy reduced to diplomatic and police functions. All the nice military hardware we see kicking ass and taking names? New stuff commissioned in secrecy, but nothing any of the Republic's member world had access to earlier.

Mind you, if it were up to me , I'd have put some fighters on there, too - I'm just attempting to rationalise because I think it's possible to do so, and out of a slight bias in favour of those books.

While in a way that might make sense for the Munificent-class due to the fact that it was buil as a corporate security and communications ship, unless my memory is failing badly both the Providence-class and Recusant-class were built as warships during the Clone Wars and the period leading to them. And for the sake of all our sanity I won't go into detail on my feelings about corporate security ships badly outclassing the Republic's pre-Clone Wars ships of the line.

Bringing this back to the Defender for a bit, and I apologize for beating a dead horse. My understanding is that FFG gets clearance from Lucasfilm on the descriptions and presumably game-stats for a lot of what they publish. They wouldn't approve individual numbers or stats, but they might specify that a given ship less/more than another ship in a given area. The TIE Defender in X-wing certainly isn't the uber-powerful fighter from the video games: it's harder to maneuver than a TIE Fighter or an Interceptor, but has one unique maneuver at its disposal.

What seems to be in the RPG, is that the Defender may be slower than the X-wing, more maneuverable, and easily outguns the comparable X-wing.

There's also an important piece in the fluff that will make a Defender a far more deadly craft as an opponent. Only the best and most loyal Imperial Ace Pilots can be found at the controls of a Defender. It means that such a pilot is at minimum a Rival-level adversary, and quite likely even a Nemesis-level will at least one rank in Adversary. Put that pilot at the controls of a Defender, and the equation changes considerably.

Yeah, but at the end of the day it's the same old problem that has people upset. Since the thing has such a huge reputation both from the other game and the subsequent EU, it's expected that it'll be head and shoulders better then everything ever. The idea that it's merely better from the perspective of certain stats and pairing with the right pilots takes more thought then a lot of people want to expend.

Personally while I was down with the TIE/D early on, as the story unfolded (in TIE Fighter) it got rather silly. Defenders manufactured by pirates? Ummmm.... no.

While the initial introduction was nice, as the game went on (and into the missileboat thread) I really got the feeling that they essentially had to introduce new super fighters as the computing power of the day couldn't handle the large number of fighters needed to really make the game reflect the films. I would LOVE it if EA were to make a new X-Wing/TIE Fighter that made better use of modern hardware. I suspect you could get some really impressive stuff going on nowadays. It's unlikely, though if this oculous rift thing takes off there's a chance the sim market will grow enough to allow it...

Yeah, but at the end of the day it's the same old problem that has people upset. Since the thing has such a huge reputation both from the other game and the subsequent EU, it's expected that it'll be head and shoulders better then everything ever. The idea that it's merely better from the perspective of certain stats and pairing with the right pilots takes more thought then a lot of people want to expend.

Hmm, I didn't get that feeling from this thread. What I saw here was people complaining that FFG's T/D seems to be as fast as a B-Wing. Which ... is not very fast at all, and makes the Defender come across as some sort of heavy bomber rather than a multirole space superiority fighter.

As for the pirates - it's been some time, but as far as I recall they merely attempted to capture and sell this technology to the highest bidder, and did not actually manage to manufacture their own T/Ds. I'm fairly certain that all T/Ds I shot down belonged to Zaarin.

While the initial introduction was nice, as the game went on (and into the missileboat thread) I really got the feeling that they essentially had to introduce new super fighters as the computing power of the day couldn't handle the large number of fighters needed to really make the game reflect the films.

I don't think this is connected. It was simply a matter of showing shiny new toys, just like the movies and the novels had their various superweapons. Both to craft a plot, as well as to "shake things up". Authors of tie-in fiction often invent new stuff to make their works more interesting, and to leave a personal mark of sorts. This is ... a common thing everywhere, I'm afraid.

Besides, out of all three movies, only RotJ featured a single battle that had more than a dozen fighters duking it out on screen, and even then you only got a very short glimpse of it - the approach of the "cloud" of TIEs, whereas all the later scenes had the battle devolve into localised mini-dogfights around the larger ships.

Those old games were capable of showing half a dozen squadrons and capital ships fighting one another, not to mention Zaarin's huge minefield. Most missions were a bit smaller in scope, though, probably to allow the player greater focus.

... god-ship ... Mary Sue treatment in a single story, ... the same reverence.

... not the end-all, be-all of starfighter design ... knashing of teeth the fanboys do.

See, it is these choices of words that irritate people who are trying to make reasonable arguments. You keep implying that anyone who disagrees with you on this matter is immature, and interested primarily in having some sort of overpowered craft to play around with like a toy.

No one here has suggested that the Tie Defender is the end-all, be-all of starfighter design. No one here has suggested the vessel must be anything close to unbeatable. No one here has suggested that they would even let their players have access to the ships.

There is curiosity as to how statting decisions are made (there was a similar question regarding the HWK-290, though that might have been in the X-Wing forum), and an expressed desire to make Tie Defenders work well as Nemesis fighters, so as to better challenge a group of PCs.

I go on vacation and the forum explodes. I know this forum has moved well past the original post, but I did want to add something. I'm not trying to upset anybody, I'm not trying to complain that the T/D is nerfed, and I'm definitely not a fanboy. Just like Redford said, I was just asking if anybody thought the stats worked well for what the TIE Defender is supposed to be in story and in the game. I like the idea of the Defender as a nemesis fighter towards the end of the game as the players are approaching endor/getting past endor. As it is giving the the beta, I don't think it fits either role very well. I was planning on upping the speed one point as a house rule, not trying to convince FFG to change the game, nor to comment on the validity of any number of video games or books or videos. The TIE Defender has been used and described by many different authors and creative minds. This leads to some discrepancies, which is fine. I'm just hoping to modify it a little bit to allow for use of how I envisioned it based on what I have seen.

Who's excited for the release?

Both the TIE Defender and the E-wing look like they will require some complex ejection systems (unless they eject down beneath the fighter rather than up).

Yeah I don't think the RL artistic designers were thinking about ejection system function when they drew the artwork for these.

Edit: Maybe the Defender ejects the pilot out the back of the fighter?

Yeah I don't think the RL artistic designers were thinking about ejection system function when they drew the artwork for these.

Edit: Maybe the Defender ejects the pilot out the back of the fighter?

The real-world Hokum is a helicopter with ejection seat capability. In theory, the blades will separate from the rotor head with explosive charges before the canopy is blown off and the pilot is ejected. I could see something similar being implemented for both the E-Wing and the TIE/D. All you need is an explosive squib designed to blow the offending object (canon, solar array) off and away before the canopy pops and the pilot flies out.

The real question is whether Imperial and Rebel/New Republic doctrine require ejection seats in those models.

Well the Defender pilots would be the most valuable the Imperial Navy has, and even most basic TIES had ejection systems I believe. And the Rebels or NR had ejection systems in every fighter type they deployed.

I see the Imperial practice to have your pilots wearing those fully enclosed suits as an advantage should the fighter get damaged. They don't have to worry about putting on their masks like the Rebels/Republics and those seconds can make the difference.

AS for the ejection system of the TIED/D: I think it should work like the Scimitar Assault Bomber, the whole cockpit is disengaged from the Tri-Wing section.

Well the Defender pilots would be the most valuable the Imperial Navy has, and even most basic TIES had ejection systems I believe. And the Rebels or NR had ejection systems in every fighter type they deployed.

That would be my argument, but I figured it was a question worth asking. By the time the Empire was actually deploying the TIE/D, those pilots would be the best, and most experienced pilots the Empire had. After Endor, the Empire's resources (personnel included) weren't nearly as expendable as they had been previously. Those pilots were valuable, and the Empire had a vested interest in getting them back.

That being said, prior to Endor, the Rebellion's tactics were largely "hit-and-run" type missions. I wonder how much time or resources they were really able to dedicate to Combat Search And Rescue (CSAR) operations. So yes, rebel ships probably had an ejection system of some sort, but the pilots would have known there was little to no chance of them being rescued after a given battle. On screen, we never see rebel pilots ejecting. Rather, they always seem to fly into other ships in suicide runs. Perhaps kamikaze tactics (with the loss of the pilot) were viewed as preferable to leaving the pilot in a situation where he would likely be captured.

During ANH we see Porkins being told to eject though he doesn't do it. And in the old RPG material it talks about how rebel pilots going into battle near planets with active rebel cells are told how to contact those cells if they eject during the mission.

Both the TIE Defender and the E-wing look like they will require some complex ejection systems (unless they eject down beneath the fighter rather than up).

In the case of the E-Wing, if the pilot has to eject, the mechanism probably blows the top laser cannon out of the way. After all, if the pilot's ejecting, the fighter in question is a lost cause.

Those pilots were valuable, and the Empire had a vested interest in getting them back.

That being said, prior to Endor, the Rebellion's tactics were largely "hit-and-run" type missions. I wonder how much time or resources they were really able to dedicate to Combat Search And Rescue (CSAR) operations. So yes, rebel ships probably had an ejection system of some sort, but the pilots would have known there was little to no chance of them being rescued after a given battle.

I would suggest that on the whole the Empire, being the bad guys, see their people as expendable and less valuable than their machines, and so would have a policy like the RAF in the Great War whereby pilots didn't get parachutes as it was felt it would only encourage them to abandon their aeroplanes at the first opportunity instead of staying to fight.

On the other hand, the Rebels, being the good guys and believing in home mom and apple pie and individuality and whatnot have more of a 'leave no one behind' thing going on.

And from a practical point of view, you are going to need to have someone collect any ejected PC rebels.

--

Incidentally, early ejector seats had a sort of Face Blind - to fire the seat, the pilot reaches up, grabs the handles and pulls the blind down over their face to protect them as they exit the aircraft.

I have sometimes pondered that Rebel pilots could use a similar system to reach up and pull something over their head to seal their suits against vacuum as they eject. Or you could redesign the helmet a bit:-

During ANH we see Porkins being told to eject though he doesn't do it. And in the old RPG material it talks about how rebel pilots going into battle near planets with active rebel cells are told how to contact those cells if they eject during the mission.

If Porkins had ejected, realistically, what were his chances of survival anyway? I get the impression that the Rebels really weren't in a position to mount a rescue operation- especially in the limited amount of time the pilots had before the Death Star exploded.

Ejecting on or over a planet with active rebel cells is a different story entirely, and sounds like a great hook for an adventure. My thoughts were more related to the not-uncommon scenario where a rebel force makes a hit-and-fade attack on an Imperial outpost or garrison. Even assuming that the attack is wholly successful, the limited amount of time before an overwhelming Imperial response arrives leads me to believe that it would be difficult or impossible for the rebels to recover everyone that went extravehicular.

For example, Red Squadron is a squadron of 12 X-Wings. It is currently taking part in a deep space strike mission on an Imperial listening post in the MacGuffin Sector. They know from their pre-mission briefings that from the time they arrive in-system to the time an effective Imperial response can be mounted is a full 30 minutes. Total time in hyperspace from the rebel fleet to the listening post is an hour or so, due to the multiple jumps necessary to prevent the Imperials from following them back. They expect that the amount of time it takes to deal with the Imperial forces stationed at the listening post and destroy or render the post non-functional is 25 minutes. If they take longer than 30 minutes, the sector fleet arrives and crushes Red Squadron with sheer numbers and overwhelming firepower. The situation becomes even more dire if the sector fleet possesses an Interdictor.

Now, let's say Red 11's X-Wing is severely damaged by one of the station's defending TIEs and Red 11 opts to eject rather than crash into the listening post. The rest of his wingmen are occupied with pacifying the station's defenses and completing the mission, so Red 11 has to sit tight for a little while.

Assuming the Rebels are interested in getting him back, Red Squadron can stick around and try to hold off the Sector Fleet while a recovery operation travels through hyperspace, locates Red 11, and gets him back to the fleet. This means the rebels risk losing even more X-Wings to an even larger force of TIE Fighters and capital ships. Or, the Rebels can cut their losses, change their security codes, and try to limit the damage from whatever poor Red 11 is likely to let slip during an interrogation by Imperial authorities.

It's also possible that recovery ships are sent with Red Squadron on its mission. I've never seen this supported in canon, but it is possible. This presents its own problems, because what was once a small, hit-and-fade strike mission is now a protracted engagement with an increasingly large footprint: additional fighters now must be dedicated to protecting the recovery craft.

The Empire, on the other hand, has no such difficulties. If Gamma 4 manages to eject before his TIE/Ln is destroyed, the sector fleet can begin a recovery operation as soon as they arrive. Rebel fighters will likely be too occupied by overwhelming numbers of TIE fighters ( 12 11 X-Wings vs. 72+ in a single star destroyer) to attempt to interfere with the recovery operations. Even if the Empire opts to wait until all hostilities have finished before recovering its pilots, the Imperial forces won't be abandoning the area like their rebel counterparts because it's territory that they control.

It just doesn't seem like the Rebellion is in a position for much of the Galactic Civil War to recover its pilots post-hostilities. Rescuing prisoners is another story entirely, and something the Rebellion is very good at. Preventing people from becoming prisoners in the first place? Not so much. I hope that makes sense, and I am interested in hearing your thoughts on the subject.

I know you cheer for the Empire but do try to remember the PCs will be Rebels in this game.

All they would really need is a S&R Shuttle waiting a couple of minutes away from the battle that can sweep in and rescue pilots once the battle has shifted away from the ejection area.