But why do you think there has to be a Rebel equal to the T/D? Where is the Imperial equal to the X-Wing?

Why not simply give the Rebels another ship - either weaker or stronger - that fits better into this time and already exists? It wouldn't necessarily have to be a fighter itself, after all.

And this has nothing to do with my "sympathies for the New Order", but simply my appreciation for consistency.

I mean, of course it comes down to how you interpret that game, but from all I can see it's supposed to take place in the Rebellion Era, so personally I'd expect Rebellion Era ships there.

Not saying that your method isn't "just as good", mind you. It's not what *I* would prefer, and I've long since held the opinion that too many authors are inventing new ships and weapons and species when there was already something that would've served just as well. But with the EU kicked into the bin, there certainly is potential to populate that list anew, with entirely new creations.

Newly invented ships at least do not come with any "baggage" in regards to expectations from fans. Though I'd probably still wonder at the Rebellion having any counterpart for the T/D when it was supposed to be the most advanced fighter of its time. That is simply the baggage of the Defender.

The Closest counterpart currently in the game is the TIE Advanced - which is a pretty close match for the X-wing aside from reversing its attack/defence stats and giving it Barrel Roll. It's not a direct analogue but I agree there doesn't have to be a direct analogue. Nor is the E-Wing a 'direct partner' - it's just an 'advanced rebel fighter', and the most widely recognised such one.

The other official counterpart is the TIE Hunter - which is supposedly being brought into Age of Rebellion, so might well make it into the miniatures game.

The main reason the E-wing has come in? It's one of the better known EU ships, and the Dark Empire series one of the most well-known graphic novels.

If FFG limit themselves to just things referred to in books and comics set before the Rebels start calling themselves the New Republic, you lose a lot of shiny things - because they're the 'New Republic' by the start of Heir To The Empire .

So you're saying it was produced even earlier than during the Rebellion Era?

No, of course that is not what you want to say, but given that somehow it must have found its way into the Rebel forces this is what you are suggesting right now - unless you want to present the possibility of the Rebellion having managed to acquire an E-Wing from the future by way of a time distortion.

Huh?? No. I think we've beat this dead horse enough we need to carry on with the OP.

Fair enough. By now I think it's obvious that we just all apply different preferences and expectations, so let's just "agree to disagree".

Your image doesn't show, though - the provider probably doesn't like hotlinking.

Or Sturn really has a mad-on for Craig Boyce. . . .

If people are not keen on re-purposing the E-Wing design to serve as a Rebel dancing partner for the TIE Defender, I'd be quite happy to see FFG hire someone to work up an all new Rebel fighter to serve that purpose.

But why do you think there has to be a Rebel equal to the T/D?

If we are playing Battlefront 5 and I am flying a TIE Defender and you are on the opposite team do you want to be stuck in an X-Wing?

Like with the X-Wing miniatures game, the only way anyone is going to get to fly a TIE Defender is if their opponents get a comparable ship.

But really, who doesn't love super prototypes and ace customs?

If people are not keen on re-purposing the E-Wing design to serve as a Rebel dancing partner for the TIE Defender, I'd be quite happy to see FFG hire someone to work up an all new Rebel fighter to serve that purpose.

But why do you think there has to be a Rebel equal to the T/D?

If we are playing Battlefront 5 and I am flying a TIE Defender and you are on the opposite team do you want to be stuck in an X-Wing?

Like with the X-Wing miniatures game, the only way anyone is going to get to fly a TIE Defender is if their opponents get a comparable ship.

But really, who doesn't love super prototypes and ace customs?

I don't see the comparison to either game being relevant. This is not a head to head game. PCs get enough advantages that they can usually overcome a lack in craft parity.

I'd further note that X-wing (or most point-based minis games) is a bad example for you to use. Just because my opponent is using a high-point superfighter doesn't mean I need to have one too. I can opt instead for outnumbering him to one degree or another or of having more optional extras since all his points went into the superfighter.

If we are playing Battlefront 5 and I am flying a TIE Defender and you are on the opposite team do you want to be stuck in an X-Wing?

Like with the X-Wing miniatures game, the only way anyone is going to get to fly a TIE Defender is if their opponents get a comparable ship.

Depends. How many starfighters are on your team, and how many on mine? What about AA, and what are the victory conditions?

Really, the Defender's scare is no different than what the X-Wing was to standard T/Fs, and I don't recall anyone complaining about that back in the computer game(s), or in FFG's miniatures game. "Balancing" doesn't always have to mean 1:1 mirror-copies. That's why X-Wing has squad points, and for the points it takes to field a Defender , the Rebel could just as well pick Dash Rendar in an YT-2400.

Also, I'd be so down for a game of the new Battlefront, once it's released.

[edit] I have a feeling I may have taken too long to write this post.

Really, the Defender's scare is no different than what the X-Wing was to standard T/Fs, and I don't recall anyone complaining about that back in the computer game(s)

If the Imperial player flies a stock TIE, the Rebel player flies a Z95.

If the Rebel has an X-Wing, the Imperial should be flying a TIE Avenger:-

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/TIE/ad_starfighter

And now if the Imperial wants a TIE Defender, the Rebel hops in his E-Wing.

Seems fair to me!

If the Imperial player flies a stock TIE, the Rebel player flies a Z95.

If the Rebel has an X-Wing, the Imperial should be flying a TIE Avenger:-

Why? That's not the classic encounter!

Just give me the chiss clawcraft.

If the Imperial player flies a stock TIE, the Rebel player flies a Z95.

If the Rebel has an X-Wing, the Imperial should be flying a TIE Avenger:-

Why? That's not the classic encounter!

Do you want to fly a stock TIE if I have an X-Wing?

It is the classic matchup from X-Wing vs TIE Fighter/X-Wing Alliance multiplayer. In said games, a TIE is 70 balance pts, an X-Wing and a TIE Advanced/Avenger are both (not coincidentally) 100 pts and a TIE Defender is 130 pts. Not, IIRC, that those values exactly matched the relative combat effectiveness of the ships in the games in practice, but that is what they were going for.

Now, single player and especially a TTRPG is another matter, but given that I think it is highly unlikely that in any kind of competitive game you will see a TIE Defender without an E-Wing or something like it close by, I feel it would be fun to stick an E-Wing or something like it in said RPG, because like I say, who doesn't love getting a super prototype to play with.

So, a fun toy for the PCs, and by establishing the fluff for a Rebel counterpart to the TIE Defender it smooths the path for future games. I call that a win!

It's a miniature game with the usual point buy system. IIRC one of the starting matches in the X-Wing game is pitting 2 X-wings versus 4? Tie Fighters. So, while I agree both sides should have some compareable ships to select from, they don't need to be perfectly matched up....just the total point values.

This discussion makes me even happier that the EU has been shredded. I always found most of it to be out of control fanboyism.

One thing most people seem to be overlooking is that right now FFG is getting the most current "official" information, with the backlog of info now mostly obsolete (as far as we know.)

Do you want to fly a stock TIE if I have an X-Wing?

I think I already replied to that question earlier - I don't have any problems with that if other circumstances (total numbers, victory conditions, respawns, supporting capital ships, etc) still make for a balanced match. Actually, I find such games to be a lot more interesting than 1:1 mirrorfights.

If you want a prototype to play around with in the RPG, why not have your players steal a Defender?

Maybe it's just me, but I would consider it a bit weird if this ragtag band of rebels manages to just shake a super fighter that's equal to the most advanced product of the Empire out of their sleeve. I mean, what's next, the rebels building their own Death Star? Consistent themes are an important aspect of the atmosphere, I say!

One thing most people seem to be overlooking is that right now FFG is getting the most current "official" information, with the backlog of info now mostly obsolete (as far as we know.)

Nah, I already addressed this in the last part here .

Do you want to fly a stock TIE if I have an X-Wing?

I think I already replied to that question earlier - I don't have any problems with that if other circumstances (total numbers, victory conditions, respawns, supporting capital ships, etc) still make for a balanced match. Actually, I find such games to be a lot more interesting than 1:1 mirrorfights.

If you want a prototype to play around with in the RPG, why not have your players steal a Defender?

Maybe it's just me, but I would consider it a bit weird if this ragtag band of rebels manages to just shake a super fighter that's equal to the most advanced product of the Empire out of their sleeve. I mean, what's next, the rebels building their own Death Star? Consistent themes are an important aspect of the atmosphere, I say!

I think they could do it if they wanted to. The rebels have a lot of starfighter and starship design talent on their side, barring Diseny throwing out the back story of basically every rebel Wing series fighter but the Y-Wing, and they have the means to produce the fighters those designers can come up with. The question is would Rebel High Command be willing to commit the resources needed to design and build such a fighter to the project? If they find out about the TIE Defender early enough and, at least in the Legends timeline, they had a spy attached to the project so they almost certainly had at least some idea of the project's goals and progress they very well might commit the resources such a project would need..

The strength of their fighter models has always been one of the Alliance's strongest points. That, and the need to not lose that edge, means them asking their designers to come up with a counter to the TIE Defender project isn't that unbelievable IMO.

The strength of their fighter models has always been one of the Alliance's strongest points. That, and the need to not lose that edge, means them asking their designers to come up with a counter to the TIE Defender project isn't that unbelievable IMO.

The Rebels don't need to develop a counter; the extraordinary price and the limited development/deployment of the Defender are its own inherent counters. Just because it has stats on the page doesn't mean it's commonly used in the setting.

The strength of their fighter models has always been one of the Alliance's strongest points. That, and the need to not lose that edge, means them asking their designers to come up with a counter to the TIE Defender project isn't that unbelievable IMO.

The Rebels don't need to develop a counter; the extraordinary price and the limited development/deployment of the Defender are its own inherent counters. Just because it has stats on the page doesn't mean it's commonly used in the setting.

While I can definitely understand the logic of your point of view if FFG decides they do need a counter for the TIE Defender I'm not going to be upset. though I wish it would be something noe rather than bringing a Legends post Endor design forward to the AOR, if that's what they are actually doing.

Nah, I already addressed this in the last part here .

Not really, you just disregarded it because... Fanboy reasons.

I think I already replied to that question earlier - I don't have any problems with that if other circumstances (total numbers, victory conditions, respawns, supporting capital ships, etc) still make for a balanced match. Actually, I find such games to be a lot more interesting than 1:1 mirrorfights.

Agree.

If you want a prototype to play around with in the RPG, why not have your players steal a Defender?

In an RPG where timeline counts, sure, that sounds interesting. In a miniature game, that is only about simulating battles, who cares why one side has a Tie Defender, the other has an E-wing, etc, it's not important at all.

Do you want to fly a stock TIE if I have an X-Wing?

RPG, video game, or mini game (left reality out since we can't actually do that)?

In an RPG it could actually be fun for your highly skilled PC pilot to end up in a TIE fighter vs. an X-wing. It will be a challenge that your ace pilot PC has not encountered for some time. You stole my X-wing! I'm going to chase you down in the TIE you left behind! Interesting encounter.

Video game? Same as RPG. It would be fun since you as the gamer are in effect the bored, skilled pilot. In the X-wing vs TIE Fighter video game I had loads of fun flying around in a non-shielded TIE fighter vs. X-wings. Suddenly the game series was challenging again.

In a mini game? It's more like my side is going to fly 2 TIE fighters vs. your 1 X-wing.

EDIT: Even if we don't agree on things, posts that debate the differences are interesting. Posts that just make personal attacks back and forth are just a waste of time (even for the posters) and make the rest of us get bored skipping past them over and over and thus kills the thread.

Not really, you just disregarded it because... Fanboy reasons.

Not really, I just have pointed out a more logical approach.

There's really just two options here:

FFG's project was still evaluated with EU guidelines in place. Unlikely, because "the most current official information" on the Defender has been out for years, and we know what it looks like. Still remotely possible simply because Lucasfilm has always treated game stats as less serious than story/background information. Because gameplay.

or

FFG's project is already being evaluated under new post-EU guidelines. In this case it simply doesn't make a lot of sense to assume that someone at Lucasfilm would care for canon information about it when the Defender as a whole was just made non-canon, does it? All they could do would be to take a look at FFG's proposal and then greenlight it, because FFG was the first to publish information on the subject, so there was little possibility to create a conflict in the first place.

If you want to debate this, please come up with something more constructive than "everyone who disagrees with me is just a fanboy!"

Pot calling the kettle much?

See my previous argument that still hasn't been answered except by "That's stupid to me" rationale.

The EU has been trashed. FFG is making new Star Wars stuff. We can only assume this equals get used to the new FFG Tie Defender as it's the only new version of it available since the EU was trashed.

Also, it's an RPG, feel free to change stuff in your games. There are people playing alt-Universe campaigns, I don't think reverting to Uber-Tie for your games is going to ruin anything.

The EU has been trashed. FFG is making new Star Wars stuff. We can only assume this equals get used to the new FFG Tie Defender as it's the only new version of it available since the EU was trashed.

Since this is exactly what I was theorising in the post I pointed to, why are you argueing?

The Rebels don't need to develop a counter; the extraordinary price and the limited development/deployment of the Defender are its own inherent counters. Just because it has stats on the page doesn't mean it's commonly used in the setting.

Really, this -- and the old Legends canon already had a Defender squadron prove to not be a game-changer at Endor.

Although, some of the surrounding fluff also had its limited use chalked up to the Navy's own " bigger is better " capital ship bias... yes, intra-service politics. Then again, pre-prequel WEG lore had the " terror weapon " doctrine attributed to Tarkin as a factor in the leaning towards Star Destroyers and superweapons instead of a greater focus on counter-piracy platforms, so the two ideas certainly meshed.

I do agree though that RPGs/video games are a special circumstance due to their... ephemeral nature, and of course their performance in-story will be necessarily subject to the " how much is the pilot, and how much is the platform " context.

--and the old Legends canon already had a Defender squadron prove to not be a game-changer at Endor.

Clearly because they were too busy fighting the final, winner takes all grudge battle of their private war with the prototype E-Wings of the Rebel Space Warfare Development Squadron ("The Demon Lords") to take part in the main action.

As described in FFGs upcoming sourcebook Secret Starfighter Projects of the Galactic Civil War and the epic Aces of the Rebellion adventure trilogy consisting of Aces over Yavin , Aces over Hoth and culminating in Aces over Endor !

And the popular Secret Weapons of the Empire level of Battlefront 5!

The Rebels don't need to develop a counter; the extraordinary price and the limited development/deployment of the Defender are its own inherent counters. Just because it has stats on the page doesn't mean it's commonly used in the setting.

Really, this -- and the old Legends canon already had a Defender squadron prove to not be a game-changer at Endor.

Although, some of the surrounding fluff also had its limited use chalked up to the Navy's own " bigger is better " capital ship bias... yes, intra-service politics. Then again, pre-prequel WEG lore had the " terror weapon " doctrine attributed to Tarkin as a factor in the leaning towards Star Destroyers and superweapons instead of a greater focus on counter-piracy platforms, so the two ideas certainly meshed.

I do agree though that RPGs/video games are a special circumstance due to their... ephemeral nature, and of course their performance in-story will be necessarily subject to the " how much is the pilot, and how much is the platform " context.

Yeah its kind of funny the the essential guide to warfare describes Imperials disliking starfighter based warfare because the CIS used it when most Clone Wars era CIS fighters were cheap superiority models or cheap bombers like the early TIE series. Really the capabilities of the models used by the Republic fighter corps were closer to the selection used by the rebellion than the Imperial developed models, often including earlier models of the same fighter or fighters by the same designers and shipbuilding corporations who later created the Wing series for the rebels. Also the RPG stats given by WOTC show very few capital ships regularly used by the CIS main fleet which carried starfighters.

What's really nuts is that the stock stats for the standard Providence class Carrier/Destroyer doesn't carry any fighter according to WOTC's stats. A: Basically every capital ship anywhere near that size in any known era of Star Wars, carries fighters, except for those that WOTC statted for the CIS for some reason. B: I find the idea of a carrier in a starfighter heavy setting not carrying any fighters bizarre, and C: Most of the CIS capships WOTC claims don't carry fighters are shown carrying them in TCW.