And why shouldn't they? The TIE Defender comes from an economy that can construct and support multiple moon-sized battle stations . If they chucked the budget of a star destroyer into a single one-man fighter, they're going to have the best starfighter fighter in the galaxy.

I don't see why this isn't easier to understand. If anyone in the mythos is going to make the best fighter in the galaxy why wouldn't it be the empire? Just because they aren't the heroes, whom have the characteristic of running a plucky shoe-string outdated space navy?

It isn't cheesy, it's superior. Because the Empire can afford these ultimately superior fighters. Sorry you rebel types can't compare with what comes out of your charity funding

The TIE Defender in AoR is meant as an end-level antagonist and as a soft barrier of "you don't want to be here." If the player party decides to go incredibly off the rails and loot the Emperor's personal safe in a serious campaign, throwing a flight group of TIE Defenders at them is one way to convince them they shouldn't do that.

The novel Isard's Revenge has Rogue squadron fly a mission in Tie Defenders. They grudgingly concede it is a superior craft.

Superior to what though?

Superior to a TIE Fighter? That it certainly is, but then most ship designs are superior to the standard TIE Fighter.

Superior to a Y-Wing? Quite probably, given the Y-Wing is an aging design even by the time of the movies.

Superior to a Z-95? Again, the TIE Defender is a modern design vs. an outdated fighter.

Superior to an A-Wing? Maybe in several respects, but the A-Wing is built for sheer speed while still retaining maneuverability.

Superior to a TIE Interceptor? Certainly given the TIE Defender has missiles and shields.

Superior to the B-Wing? The TIE Defender is certainly faster, has better maneuverability, and doesn't have the reputation of being quite the hanger queen that the B-Wing does, but the B-Wing packs a hell of a lot of firepower for a ship it's size.

Superior to an X-Wing? Might seem that way if it's one of the first sorties even a veteran pilot has against the craft. May well be on par with the X-Wing in terms of being a "space superiority fighter." But then if that incident in Isard's Revenge is the first time the Rogues faced off against the craft, any vessel that they don't know the full capacity of is going to seem "superior".

Superior to a Vong Coralskipper? Who knows, but again in the initial confrontations, when you don't know entirely what the enemy's ship can do, said ship is going to seem "superior" and the pilots going against it (particularly if they're flying a favored design like the Rogues and their X-Wings) will only admit so "grudgingly."

And there are Legacy Era ships that would probably pound the TIE Defender into the dirt while flying circles around it, so the TIE Defender certainly isn't the apex of starship design and capability.

Heck, it's an EU ship, so going by the revised canon, it doesn't even exist anymore, and could quite easily have been dropped from the AoR core rulebook.

The novel Isard's Revenge has Rogue squadron fly a mission in Tie Defenders. They grudgingly concede it is a superior craft.

Superior to what though?

To the Rogues' signature X-Wings. Rakaydos did specify that the Rogues were flying IN Tie Defenders.

And there are Legacy Era ships that would probably pound the TIE Defender into the dirt while flying circles around it, so the TIE Defender certainly isn't the apex of starship design and capability.

And when the (much hoped-for) Legacy-era supplement is released, I hope the ships are statted out appropriately, though (although Star Wars tends towards technological stagnation from Era to Era, despite "the newest, best weapon" being a recurring trope).

Heck, it's an EU ship, so going by the revised canon, it doesn't even exist anymore, and could quite easily have been dropped from the AoR core rulebook.

Sure, just like a huge chunk of the material we have for Edge of the Empire. We don't NEED BoSS, the ISB, IPKCs, Hutt Kajidics (although they might have come up in Clone Wars, can't remember). Heck, any location, concept, or ship that didn't appear in one of the films/shows is technically non-canon/Legends-status now, right?

That doesn't mean those things aren't useful for people's stories, or worthy of inclusion in the universe.

I have no doubts that we will see stats for a TIE Defender either in the AoR Core Rulebook or shortly after in another product. My only reason for this belief is that it shows up in the X-wing game, so FFG has already shown that they like it.

Heck, it's an EU ship, so going by the revised canon, it doesn't even exist anymore, and could quite easily have been dropped from the AoR core rulebook.

You don't seriously think they are planning to limit themselves to ships shown on screen for AOR do you? If they tried that the entire Imperial fleet would consist of Super Star Destroyers, three variants of Imperial Star Destroyers, and maybe some CR90s and Nebulon-Bs while the entire fighter fleet would consist of 4 or 5 TIE variants. Remember Legends material can become canon via inclusion in future products and IMO a lot of Pre-Endor GCW Legends ship designs are likely to become canon. I really don't think Disney will complain about FFG, Marval, or Star Wars novel authors canonizing Legends ships unless there is something about the ship that clashes with the new canon. (Possibly Interdictors since TCW showed ships jumping to hyper well inside a planet's gravity well.)

The TIE Defender as presented in the video game was simply pure cheese, being superior to every other fighter in every conceivable way. That sort of thing works fine for a video game, much like Starkiller and his over-the-top Force antics worked for the Force Unleashed games. But it doesn't necessarily translate well into an RPG, particularly one that's more concerned with the group's success as a whole than doling out uber-cool toys the way that Pathfinder and prior editions of D&D were.

Also, could be that the Lucasfilm archives had information that countered fan expectations of what the TIE Defender is fully capable of, with it not necessarily being "as fast" or "as maneuverable" or whatever as the fanboys think it should be. Case in point is the dimensions of the HWK-290, which is listed as being fairly large on Wookieepedia (information itself based of WotC stats) but according to the info that FFG was provided, really isn't much bigger than a Y-Wing.

Or could just be the TIE Defender in the video game was the prototype design, and thus had better overall performance since it's a custom-built design, with the version in the RPG simply being the mass-production model that's not quite as superior due to budgetary concerns/constraints.

What!

Frantically checks and finds image from Cross section book... oh my god

I always pictured that as big as the Millennium Falcon and its a freaking two seater!

Sorry that was quite a shock, now about the Tie Defender... will wait for them to post it in a book before I'd ever allow one of those turn up although I do like another posters' response about blowing up a hangar full of them...

Case in point is the dimensions of the HWK-290, which is listed as being fairly large on Wookieepedia (information itself based of WotC stats) but according to the info that FFG was provided, really isn't much bigger than a Y-Wing.

What!

Frantically checks and finds image from Cross section book... oh my god

I always pictured that as big as the Millennium Falcon and its a freaking two seater!

In the Dark Forces games the Moldy Crow, both the ingame model and in cutscenes, is very definitely a small ship.

Look at the size of Jan Ors head here:-

Essentially, whoever wrote entry in The Wook and whatever it is based off Didn't Do The Research.

That would be a wizards of the coast boner.

Heck, it's an EU ship, so going by the revised canon, it doesn't even exist anymore, and could quite easily have been dropped from the AoR core rulebook.

Technically, given the release date of both the AoR Beta and the Beginner's Game, is AoR not a non-canon "Legacy" game as well?

I can't stand the Tie Defender. It was invented to be challenge in a video game where a player can destroy HUNDREDS of tie fighters. It really has no place in a game where the Ties from the movies are challenge enough . I also think the E-Wing doesn't belong in the game either at least not in the time period in which the game has been set.

Doesn't depend it a lot on the circumstances whether a normal T/F is or is not a challenge?

If this game is about the rebellion as a whole, it may well lead to the characters gaining control of equipment or vehicles that would render normal TIEs inconsequential. Besides, in my opinion a T/D is as much a potential enemy as it is a tool for the GM to drive the narrative. It's a difference whether you are being pursued by a Patrol Frigate or a Star Destroyer, regardless of whether or not the former is already challenge enough (or maybe that's the point! ).

(agreed about the E/W though ... but that's where I as a GM would say "not in my game" )

Sure, just like a huge chunk of the material we have for Edge of the Empire. We don't NEED BoSS, the ISB, IPKCs, Hutt Kajidics (although they might have come up in Clone Wars, can't remember). Heck, any location, concept, or ship that didn't appear in one of the films/shows is technically non-canon/Legends-status now, right?

That doesn't mean those things aren't useful for people's stories, or worthy of inclusion in the universe.

At this point I recall that the way canon works is " it didn't necessarily happen unless one of the new stories says it did ", though that isn't the same as " definitely not canon ." Not sure what that means for Lucasfilm Story Group's take on the concept game stats though...

All I mean is that the TIE Defender could simply be a very different ship the next time it shows up in a published Star Wars story or TV/film appearance. Unlearn what you have learned, you must. Just because it was a god-ship in a video game or got the Mary Sue treatment in a single story, doesn't mean the next it shows up that's going to get the same reverence.

If anything, the stats in the Beta make it a pretty-solid ship in comparison to the baseline TIE and the TIE Interceptor, so it's certainly an improvement over that version (which is what the Imp designers were going for), but it's not the end-all, be-all of starfighter design, even for that era. Looking at the Beta stats, it's got better handling and firepower than the X-Wing overall, but doesn't have the same mainline speed (though for all we know, the X-Wing might have been dropped to Speed 4 in the upcoming core rulebook), and has a slower hyperdrive, but otherwise the two are pretty close. And as noted, if the Lucasfilm Archives have information that says the Defender isn't as fast or uber-tough as WotC hyped it to be in their stat blocks (note the HWK-290 size discrepancy), then that's what FFG is going to go with, no matter how much knashing of teeth the fanboys do.

... god-ship ... Mary Sue treatment in a single story, ... the same reverence.

... not the end-all, be-all of starfighter design ... knashing of teeth the fanboys do.

See, it is these choices of words that irritate people who are trying to make reasonable arguments. You keep implying that anyone who disagrees with you on this matter is immature, and interested primarily in having some sort of overpowered craft to play around with like a toy.

No one here has suggested that the Tie Defender is the end-all, be-all of starfighter design. No one here has suggested the vessel must be anything close to unbeatable. No one here has suggested that they would even let their players have access to the ships.

There is curiosity as to how statting decisions are made (there was a similar question regarding the HWK-290, though that might have been in the X-Wing forum), and an expressed desire to make Tie Defenders work well as Nemesis fighters, so as to better challenge a group of PCs.

You keep implying that anyone who disagrees with you on this matter is immature, and interested primarily in having some sort of overpowered craft to play around with like a toy.

Would it really be so terrible if they were?

The aim here is to have fun, after all.

I say this as someone who regularly runs around with a lego X-Wing making Pew Pew noises.

And as noted, if the Lucasfilm Archives have information that says the Defender isn't as fast or uber-tough as WotC hyped it to be in their stat blocks (note the HWK-290 size discrepancy), then that's what FFG is going to go with, no matter how much knashing of teeth the fanboys do.

You keep saying that, but given all the previous appearances of the Defender a more plausible explanation would seem to be that FFG simply chose to stat it differently, because they can.

I mean, does anyone here believe they were "forced" to include the E-Wing as a Rebel fighter instead of a New Republic model? I for one sure don't think this was in the Lucasfilm Archives as well. Which all the prior sources already drew information from - it's not like the T/D only appeared in WotC, after all. It didn't even originate there.

If we have 99 books saying this and 1 book saying that, I know which one is the "odd man out".

Are we sure that the E-Wing is being included as a Rebel fighter and not a [insert whatever the New Republic calls itself in the new canon here] fighter?

Honestly as a pilot I would love to fly a TIE Defender but if I were in charge of selecting fighters for the Empire from the know Imperial Starfighter models than I would mostly use the TIE Hunters and Assault Gunboats for my fleet, convoy escort, and planet based offensive squadrons and TIE Opressors and I-7 Howlrunners for my planetary defense units.

So I will admit I don't know my TIEs as well as I should so I was looking these up did anybody else notice that the TIE Hunter sources at the bottom of Wookieepedia indicated one source as the Assault on Arda 1 adventure book?

TIE Defender LOVED it in TIE Fighter game and X-wing/TIE Fighter didn't get far enough in alliance to encounter it. However, if you were like me and dedicated all your energy to Shields and Weapons this thing could barely outrun a Y-wing in a fight but with those power boosts the thing was **** hard to kill. As for how it is stated in Beta, well it is a Beta maybe there were some errors.

As for my favorite ship it will always be either the X-wing or the Skipray Blastboat. The X-wing just because it is iconic and the Skipray cause that thing is just plain mean. I remember in a Saga game I wanted to go buy a ship as I was a Jedi and my reward was going to either the new order or towards a ship so I chose ship. I got a Skipray used and abused the rules in the Starship book and came out with a pratically a heavily armed yacht that I could fly by myself (with a few automated controls and astromechs) and I cruised around with the rest of the party in my own ship. The one time the GM actually tried to do space combat I decimated a small squad of TIES.

If we have 99 books saying this and 1 book saying that, I know which one is the "odd man out".

Yep.. weg is defunct and wotc weren't renewing, so FFG are the odd one out by hokding the liscence and saying how things go (with lucasfilm approval of course).

Are we sure that the E-Wing is being included as a Rebel fighter and not a [insert whatever the New Republic calls itself in the new canon here] fighter?

Well, it certainly sounds like it , as its card has the Rebel Alliance logo, and the text specifically calls it out as "another Rebel heavy hitter".

I suppose you could say that it's not this game, but it's the same company operating on the same license, so inferences can be drawn. And I'm already used to FFG going "its own way" and discarding previously established material from the 40k RPGs.

Yep.. weg is defunct and wotc weren't renewing, so FFG are the odd one out by hokding the liscence and saying how things go (with lucasfilm approval of course).

Well, that's not how the old canon worked - frankly, it didn't matter who held which license, because everything was entered into the same Holocron database, so that you'd have a single consistency.

However, what is possible is that FFG is simply making use of the very recent de-canonisation. Right now, the TIE-Defender is effectively in a state of limbo. It's an EU product, and so it currently "does not exist" for the purpose of this Brave New Canon that Disney decided to craft. This means FFG can basically "re-invent" it by taking an established name and visual design, but deciding whatever they want on its exact stats and background, simply because they're the first using the T/D in the new canon. Not because Lucasfilm/Disney feels their version is better, but simply because of ... timing. First come, first serve.

Provided of course that FFG's games will be part of the new canon rather than being released under the Legends label (in which case their version of the T/D would be just one of several non-canon relics). But whilst I have to confess that I believe the latter would be a better way to go about it, I would not expect it to happen.

Either way, that of course doesn't change anything about the TIE-Defender having an established history of 20(!) years in the old canon, and thus a rather large number of veteran fans simply having certain expectations on anything that FFG will publish in this direction. Regardless of how much the responsible designer thinks their own idea is better than what came before.

[edit] Actually, the change in canon could be the reason for FFG pushing the E-Wing into the Rebellion Era. It's a New Republic product, yet since nobody knows how the new post-Endor movies will end up like, and what ships they feature, the E-Wing was "up for grabs" in a way of either making it available earlier, or not at all.

If somebody hadn't pushed the E-Wing into the Rebellion Era, it would've had to be "suspended" until the new movies are all released and the new canon gets to work on expanding that period. Guess someone couldn't wait.

Still don't like this breach of consistency, though. And it only makes me dislike Disney's decision to steamroll the EU even more.

Are we sure that the E-Wing is being included as a Rebel fighter and not a [insert whatever the New Republic calls itself in the new canon here] fighter?

Well, it certainly sounds like it , as its card has the Rebel Alliance logo, and the text specifically calls it out as "another Rebel heavy hitter".

I suppose you could say that it's not this game, but it's the same company operating on the same license, so inferences can be drawn. And I'm already used to FFG going "its own way" and discarding previously established material from the 40k RPGs.

Regarding the E-Wing if they really wanted a rebel strike interceptor in the AOR era I wish they would have gone with the T-Wing, which was long established as originally having been a rebel fighter. IMO The E-Wings and T-Wings are similar but the E-Wing came out later originally so it was more advanced, more powerful, and more expensive.

Honestly as a pilot I would love to fly a TIE Defender but if I were in charge of selecting fighters for the Empire from the know Imperial Starfighter models than I would mostly use the TIE Hunters and Assault Gunboats for my fleet, convoy escort, and planet based offensive squadrons and TIE Opressors and I-7 Howlrunners for my planetary defense units.

So I will admit I don't know my TIEs as well as I should so I was looking these up did anybody else notice that the TIE Hunter sources at the bottom of Wookieepedia indicated one source as the Assault on Arda 1 adventure book?

Yeah the TIE Hunter was confirmed as appearing in Assault on Arda 1 when AoAI was first announced.

[edit] Actually, the change in canon could be the reason for FFG pushing the E-Wing into the Rebellion Era. It's a New Republic product, yet since nobody knows how the new post-Endor movies will end up like, and what ships they feature, the E-Wing was "up for grabs" in a way of either making it available earlier, or not at all.

If next year FFG releases the Fury-class (130 ABY) for it's miniature game, are we now going to claim it is a Rebellion-era starfighter? It's a mini for a tactical game, not an RPG campaign. I took the availability of the E-Wing in the X-Wing miniature game as simply because it is fun to do so with no claim to a change at all of the canon for it's in-universe availability.

I used the analogy before here, but in my youth I used to have plastic cowboys and indians fighting against my WW2 plastic soldiers while never once claiming I actually thought they were from the same time period.

Regarding the E-Wing if they really wanted a rebel strike interceptor in the AOR era I wish they would have gone with the T-Wing, which was long established as originally having been a rebel fighter. IMO The E-Wings and T-Wings are similar but the E-Wing came out later originally so it was more advanced, more powerful, and more expensive.

I actually have a soft spot for the T-Wing just because I think it looks really sleek! It was ridiculously fragile and a cheap compromise between the X-Wing and the A-Wing, but in terms of looks I absolutely adore it. It's so ... viper'ish .

I used the analogy before here, but in my youth I used to have plastic cowboys and indians fighting against my WW2 plastic soldiers while never once claiming I actually thought they were from the same time period.

Perhaps you should tell FFG that they should not publicly label the E-Wing a Rebel fighter, then?

Really, how much effort would it have been to slap a different icon on the card and call it a Republic ship? If that's what they would have wanted to do ...

I don't think anyone would protest at X-Wing becoming a "mixed era" game where you can just mix and match ships from all over Star Wars at your heart's content. In fact, this would open up a lot of fun possibilities! But that is not how the game is currently described, is it.

Perhaps you should tell FFG that they should not publicly label the E-Wing a Rebel fighter, then?

Because, if you've played the game, you will know there are only 2 sides represented in it. Would you have preferred they labeled it as an Imperial fighter? These aren't d20 miniatures with a large range of sets/sides. Until they come out with a new expansion game, there will always only be Rebels and Imperials.

Because, if you've played the game, you will know there are only 2 sides represented in it. Would you have preferred they labeled it as an Imperial fighter? These aren't d20 miniatures with a large range of sets/sides. Until they come out with a new expansion game, there will always only be Rebels and Imperials.

Which is why they've made the E-Wing a Rebel fighter. I fail to see your point.

It's easy. If something interesting is from a different era than your game, you either:

- shrug and look for another interesting ship

- open up your game to include other eras instead of just the one

- change the interesting ship so that it fits into your game

The most likely solution, one should assume, is the first option, but FFG went with the third.