As for the stats thing I don`t really see an issue if player wants to buy a whole mess of quirks to buff up and space marines are pitifully weak in FFG without their unnatural stats and rare gear. 2d10+20 is the FFG standard, it generates stats that work well within the system. If you go lower you risk discouraging players with constant test failures.

Your guys seem to be kind of stuck in an all-out wargame rather than a cyberpunk/western sandbox.

i also want to stress that players are not by default a gang. They are essentially nobodies they can choose to form or join a gang as things progress but who wants to be a juve in sombody else`s gang when they can be an awesome freelance adventurer?

What actually worked well for my players was their characters just bumping into each other in the bar and banding together for survival and the slim hope of monetary advantage.

My guys never fired a shot in four hours of play, they dearly wanted to but the occaision to do so never arose as they were walking about in a town. They did however get to use navigate, security, charm, deceive, tech-use, common lore (necromunda) and commerce skills more than their WS and BS for once.

I wanted them to remember in ON that you don`t have the clout of a big Imperial organisation (or anyone at all for that matter) backing you up, when you start killing you are committing a good old fashioned murder. Watchmen gangs, bounty hunters, angry enforcers and angrier friends and family of killed foes are very real dangers.

That said, your scenario sounds pretty cool too. I might use it later if the guys get a bit of a reputation.

They are more combat oriented, yes, but we have had some missions where combat was not at all the focus, and those went over really well. They know that they aren't in a gang, though I told them that it was an option. They are playing as freelancers, who came together from off world (or at least that's what these two had decided) so they know that, and I have explained the whole cyberpunk/western thing to them too.

The mission I ran was meant to get a feel for the different system, and see how everything worked out with tweaked stats and a lack of Guard-level equipment. So yes, it had combat, but I also gave them the opportunity to use skills and solve it without a shot fired. My players decided guns blazing was more appropriate

"Holestead Rescue" follows a narrative that isn't unheard of in Westerns; strangers in town asked to perform a task that the person asking couldn't do. It is, after all, usually the guy or group of guys from somewhere else that save the day.

As for revenge and consequences, there will definitely be some of those in the next few sessions. I want them to figure out that shooting first and asking questions later doesn't always help.

1. This only produces a range of 23-35 (as opposed to 22-40) by FFG's own reckoning 26-35 is the average for humanity so I think the higher range is justified.

i also want to stress that players are not by default a gang. They are essentially nobodies they can choose to form or join a gang as things progress but who wants to be a juve in sombody else`s gang when they can be an awesome freelance adventurer?

Emphasis mine.

Don't these 2 statements strike anyone but me as contradictive?

Yes, and my rub has always been that the starting characteristics in OW are a bit high for the run of the mill, average grunt of the Imperial Guard. Lacking training and a regimented combat lifestyle, it stands to reason that stats in ON should be lower than even 2d10 + 20.

Yes, and my rub has always been that the starting characteristics in OW are a bit high for the run of the mill, average grunt of the Imperial Guard. Lacking training and a regimented combat lifestyle, it stands to reason that stats in ON should be lower than even 2d10 + 20.

1. Characteristics were rolled as 3d5 + 20. This gave them pretty average starting stats, but with the quirks and aptitude bonus they were in the high 30's for some choice characteristics.

I prefer it to 2d10+20 personally.

It worked out quite well, too. I mean, everyone gets average stats. The things they want to be better at, they pick advantages and their origin to make it happen. Then you have people who are average in most areas, but good at some things (which is how people are, really)

To go back to this perceived stas issue 2d10+20 is the stat base for every FFG system game involving humans it`s even the base in the famously low powered DH1.

If an obese adept from a cushy imperial world has 2d10+20 across the board I can`t see why a Necromundan scummer shouldn`t. (Unless you are really desperate to have -5 Toughness +5 Fellowship.)

The basis of this is the OW system is balanced for human versus human combat high stats make you a bit more effective but much lower can make you irrelevant.

As for the nobodies thing.

I simply mean the players are not famed badass heroes they don`t have shiny badges, unassailable authority or the planetary governor on speed dial.

They are just a bunch of people in a bad situation (that of being out of work in the underhive) they have no powerful connections, fearsome reputation or outstanding fame to capitalise on. They are tiny near-suicidally confident minnows in a pond full of fiercely territorial sharks with gang-tattoos and big guns.

One of my players built a "trader" he confidently mentioned this to a guilder and was shaken down for not paying guild dues, another wants to be a bounty hunter but nobody will talk to him until he gets an official guild license for fear of retribution. They ended up having to do an odd job to pay off their bar tab. My players learnt the hard way that starting PCs in ON are not established professionals they are wannabe losers.

It`s the job of the players and GM to turn their worthless broke scum into famous reviled/feared/hated/loved scum if that is what they want but most importantly just scum with a few more credits in their pockets.

I understand that 2d10 + 20 is the roll that FFG has chosen to represent humans, and I have played with it several times. My issue stems from the fact that this is the base level for everybody, which doesn't account for the modifiers players will get from regimental options and specialties. In the end of character creation, you can quite easily end up with a character that (supposedly being just the average joe shmoe guardsman) has the stats of a level that is almost superhuman, right at the start. Add in the +20 characteristic buy, and that character suddenly has an extremely hard time failing.

I mean even Seal Team 6 misses shots, body builders fail strength competitions, world class athletes trip, and these are all human beings. Humans that are well trained, but certainly not anywhere near a Space Marine, which is what you can get to with 2d10 + 20.

Not very average human at all, if you ask me.

As for players being nobodies with no authority or respect, I don't think anyone was arguing the contrary. I think that going from zero to hero is part of the draw of any game, especially one like this. Part of my reasoning for lower characteristics is because of that. If my posts came across as contrary to that, I apologize.

I see your point with the abusable system making OTT characters is easier than in base OW but lowering starting stats a few point doesn`t change it. If you want to pile on quirks to build the Hulk by buying combat stats and dumping on everything else you`ll do it anyway.

I for one hope you enjoy playing your enormous ogryn/scaly, but don`t blame me when you run into extended social encounters, doors too small for you to go through, tasks requiring a grasp of basic literacy, complex locks set in impervious adamantium doors, malfunctioning combat servitors, heavily armoured enforcers, redemptionist mobs and tricked out spyrer teams who have come to hunt the beast.

Your friend the GM should be there to encourage you not to abuse the system, if he chooses not to do so directly the underhive can do it for him later.

The zero to hero thing was more a case of play emphasis. Partially for realistic expectaions for players but mostly for GMs to reign in the "epic quest" stuff until the PCs are regarded as reliable enough to do them by the folks of the underhive.

Starting level characters should be unknowns. Desperately looking for any job that somebody is wiling to pay for but doesn`t want the hassle of going to the more expensve and reliable gangs or Guild to get it done.

When you need something done you go to either your friends or the people you know can help. You wouldn`t hire nobodies you found in the street with saving your kidnapped children for example you`d go to somebody you knew you could trust.

Later on PCs can become famous, feared and/or respected, legendary hero/villans in their own right, sought out by those hivers desperate and rich enough to engage their sevices.

I see your point with the abusable system making OTT characters is easier than in base OW but lowering starting stats a few point doesn`t change it. If you want to pile on quirks to build the Hulk by buying combat stats and dumping on everything else you`ll do it anyway.

I for one hope you enjoy playing your enormous ogryn/scaly, but don`t blame me when you run into extended social encounters, doors too small for you to go through, tasks requiring a grasp of basic literacy, complex locks set in impervious adamantium doors, malfunctioning combat servitors, heavily armoured enforcers, redemptionist mobs and tricked out spyrer teams who have come to hunt the beast.

Your friend the GM should be there to encourage you not to abuse the system, if he chooses not to do so directly the underhive can do it for him later.

The zero to hero thing was more a case of play emphasis. Partially for realistic expectaions for players but mostly for GMs to reign in the "epic quest" stuff until the PCs are regarded as reliable enough to do them by the folks of the underhive.

Starting level characters should be unknowns. Desperately looking for any job that somebody is wiling to pay for but doesn`t want the hassle of going to the more expensve and reliable gangs or Guild to get it done.

When you need something done you go to either your friends or the people you know can help. You wouldn`t hire nobodies you found in the street with saving your kidnapped children for example you`d go to somebody you knew you could trust.

Later on PCs can become famous, feared and/or respected, legendary hero/villans in their own right, sought out by those hivers desperate and rich enough to engage their sevices.

I think that the lower characteristics has been given numerous justifications by me in previous posts, not only for balances reasons but to simulate the fact that they are generally untrained nobodies. Again, the quirks might need some tweaking so that it isn't as easy to abuse. While I would like to believe that I can encourage my players with kind words to not abuse the system, they will ultimately do as they please with their character (which they should!). If they do try to stack some characteristics, I know for a fact that they would feel targeted and picked on if I repeatedly tried to punish them in-game for making those choices. It is kind of a gray area for me, both as a player and a GM.

I mean, don't you think it would just work better for everyone if it wasn't so ripe for abuse?

One potential fix that came to my mind was maybe running the quirks system like the item pattern creator in Hammer of the Emperor. There is a table of number of advantages to disadvantages for a given dice roll; the book also says a player and GM could come to a compromise as well.

So in the case of the quirks system, it could be like for every two advantages, a disadvantage has to be taken. If you didn't want it to be so hard and fast, you could just as easily lower the amount of starting quirk points a player has to four, and increase all the advantage costs to four as well. So they can get one advantage, or take a couple disadvantages to get a second one.

Again, I don't mean to continually harp over the quirks system and balance maliciously. This is just something that I know for a fact will come up at my table, and I don't want it to become a game-breaking issue.

Untrained nobodies, yes but hey are still people and as such they can be either above or below average.

Having run a test using lower stats (2d10+10) I can categorically say lower stats did not make for an interesting game, they made for enthusiasm crushing levels of inability.

That -20 for untrained skills became crippling and made for even more heavily min-maxed characters because being an all-rounder became impossible. Frankly if you want characters to either be capable trained professionals or completely incapable I'd point you toward the irritating shortcomings of DH1's skill system. (notably the inability of untrained individuals to use anything that be defined as technology.)

In essence. Why not take extra disadvantages to reduce your willpower of 13 to 7 and fellowship of 17 to 5 if you can never succeed without a huge bonus anyway?

You seem to be approaching the question of ability from the direction "why should they be able to X" when the OW system is designed on the "why shouldn't they be able to X"

I agree the quirks system will need tweaking to avoid abuse but I really think responsible GMing is the way to go.

Balance requires that advantages and disadvantages remain the same value. If you want to reduce the "freebie" quirks just reduce the points for your group I'm thinking maybe to only one, so if you want to be awesome you have to suck at something.

Anyway, give it a try and tell me how it works out. Hopefully I'll do the same with my group as well tonight.

I didn't use 2d10 + 10, I used 3d5 + 20. One gives you a minimum of 12, and the other gives a minimum of 23. So yes, if we had tried 2d10 + 10 then it would've been a horrendous waste of time. But we didn't. The characteristic roll we used worked out well, and didn't give anything that wasn't average, or a few points above or below it.

As for being untrained, you yourself said you gave your players like 1200 xp to buy some starting skills so that wouldn't be as much of an issue. Since I am now doing the same, I don't see that being an issue.

We are playing again tonight so I will let you know how it goes with a less combat oriented session, as well as an extra player.

Yeah I know you tried 3d5 +20, thats really not so different to 2d10 +15 which was one of my first test batches.

I gave my players 800xp but I said I`ll probably increase it later on. Untrained skills were still an issue due in my game due to the number of them required by the session`s shift of emphasis from action and combat to survival and exploration. Most notably charm, deceive, commerce, navigation (underhive) and survival got emerged as big players.

So far I`ve genned chars at +10, +15, +20. With a mix of d5 and d10 combinations. I`ve edged the non random component up each time because lower numbers made fustratingly inflexible characters.

The simple answer is the base system is designed for 2d10+20 characters which result in a average stat of ~30, meaning that player will succeed a challenging test slightly less than one in three times.

Feel free to chop the legs out from under your players if you feel they should be weaker but I`m leaving the matter at that.

I don`t know why varous gamelines seem to have impresed on people that 2d10+20 stats are the exclusive preserve of outstanding individuals when it`s results are defined as the human average range.

So last night's session was a lot of fun, it had far less combat and was instead focused on interaction and exploration. My players needed the same skills you just listed, and opted to blow all their starting xp (as well as the extra xp I gave them to buy skills) on talents and characteristic advances. The only skill bought was one guy getting Medicae up to +10, so that was good I suppose. I even told them that they should buy skills, but that didn't stop them

Anyways, we picked up a few weeks after last time in-game, so my two players got all their injuries healed and were out of casts and all. They found themselves penniless, and then met up with our third player's new character, "Old Man Critchet" who they found in a bar. They spent twenty minutes trying (and failing, repeatedly) to find a way to get everyone out of the bar so they could rob the place blind. After that didn't really pan out, the two left to go search the ruined hab blocks south of town. They got lost, due to the lack of a Navigate (Underhive) skill, and ended up getting attacked by a Millisaur out in the wastes. Barely surviving that, they ended up in some slag hills where a miner pointed them in the direction of a different town.

Now this whole time, the third character, Old Man Critchet, elected to stay in that same bar. He cycled between drinking himself drunk, passing out in an alleyway, and panning the Sludge River for trinkets to sell.

The two other players wandered into an inn, where they had to clean rooms for the better part of a day just to earn enough for a room. In the middle of the night, they were attacked by the innkeeper who wanted to steal one character's cybernetic arm. They narrowly killed him, after many rounds of missed shots and botched Eviscerator swings. They tore out his cybernetic eye, then assured the quite frightened patrons that they "were the new management." They threatened the dead innkeeper's wife, chased her out of the inn, chopped open the safe, and attempted to bribe the remaining patrons with free booze.

That was just the next morning. They tried to sell the inn to two different Guilders and the following day, were chased out of town by a mob.

Old Man Critchet tagged along with a Guild Caravan into that town just in time to see the other two characters chased out of town. He bought a slave boy and went to the bar to get drunk.

It was a fun session.

Sounds great, I can't wait to hear what happens next.

That said remember the players are far from the most ferocious criminals in the Underhive and gangs aren't famously tolerant of newcomers on their turf (especially ones who don't pay their protection fees.)

Thanks, we all really enjoyed it.

So far, they have no idea that what they've done has really rocked the boat. I took that thing you said about families and watchmen and mobs to heart, and that will be incorporated into the campaign as a whole. I haven't been telling them, "Oh if you kill this guy then his whole family/gang/religious mob/mutant horde will come after you" as I don't want to ruin the fun for me as well as curb their own enthusiasm. One of my least favorite parts about GMing is repeatedly saying "no you can't do this" so instead, I am just going to go with the flow, and present the consequences of their actions wherever it works best.

Make no mistake, killing that innkeeper is going to come back to haunt them

As for gangs, I haven't quite gotten to that section of Necromunda life but their previous actions will kind of throw them into it. I want to have that innkeeper killing result in either bounty hunters, a revenge mob, or gang retaliation. I think that it would flow better if it were one of the first two, so I may save the gangs for payback from the first mission (where they had to fight a couple gangers for a kidnapped daughter).

Really the level and form of of backlash you want to employ relies on how deep in the underhive (how close to the lawless sump levels) your campaign takes place.

If you want to be deep in lawless bowels of the underhive it'll be local mobs or gangs, as out in the styx guilders will likely only ever be seen in trading caravans passing between outposts and as such wouldn't be quick to respond.

Nearer to Guild outposts and the border to the hive city itself you'll have enforcer sweeps, guild guards and guild-sanctioned watchmen gangs.

Glad you are having fun.

So how does that work, exactly? While I read the fluff and understand how the Hive is tiered, I didn't get how Hab Domes work, or how they are stacked, or the travel between them. Also, how is there a day/night cycle? One of my players asked that last one, but I just told him, "You don't know, as you are ignorant of the level of technology that it entails" because I had no freakin' clue.

Basically the "domes" exist as bubbles of land (a ground, underground and sky/roof) they are not by definition any particular shape or size, they can be vast enough to hold dust deserts and lakes or small enough to acommodate only a large dwelling.

Between the domes you have miles of access pipes, energy conduits, lift shafts, stairs, holesteads, ruins and in the centre (broadly) of the hive you have the enormous geothermal vent that provides heat and power to the hive.

Domes are a type of structure (one built for habitation) rather than a description of any specific one.

They are stacked in no particular order with miles of (possibly erroneous) superstructure supporting them and holding them together.

Day and night cylces are a product of energy conservation, you can provide heat and light more widely if you aren't doing it all the time.

Also new vesion 10/7/14

And what exactly is a holestead? They mention it a few times in the rules but I never understood exactly what they looked like, besides being a cyberpunk neo-western farmstead.

I imagine a holestead is any place outside a habdome where a person has built a home.

Basic cover-all term for anything from a farmhouse to an isolated small community.

As with most things in the era of fluff Necromunda was spawned there are no definitive answers just inferences from use and references in rulebooks and novels.

the latest version featured the first additional armoury item, the Gene-Lock a method of restricting use of powerful loot items or personal weapons until players can either break the lock or afford to have it removed.

I really like the new version, I was going to mention maybe putting in rules for food and drink with prices but you beat me to it. I chuckled a bit when I saw the prices for booze, as that is exactly what I had used in my game.

Especially liked the way quirks are now, that revision makes it less abuse-prone.

Also, the gene-lock is a great tool for the GM, and I will definitely be incorporating that.

I am getting close to finishing the bestiary, so you will have that soon in the next few days. What else is needed for the rules? Maybe a fluff section, or a GM section with ideas and all?

After I finish converting pricing and pad out the armoury with necromunda gear (such a grind.)

I'll be expanding fluff intermission pieces featuring Randolph Theor Helmawr and his descent into the Underhive after every section (if I can manage it.)

Then I'll be adding a small "Life in the underhive" section for players and GMs.

Then it's just the GM peptalk, example NPCs a few places maybe (Toxtown and Butte's Hole from my currnetgame will feature) and then I have to decide if I want to apply my D10 NPC system in-book (which I really should have talked to you about already regarding you bestiary work.)

If the conversion bits are too hard, just make it up yourself, honestly. If it is near to the spirit of the original game and is balanced for this one, then that is all that matters.

Speaking of those tidbits, I liked them, but the formatting was messed up on the second one, and I was unable to read it. A tiny thing but worth noting.

All of those parts would be nice, especially given that not too many people are well-versed in Necromunda. I attempted to play the game a few years back, and I still don't know all that much about the finer points of Underhive life.

As for NPCs and your system, I don't even know what it is! So you'll have to tell me all about it. One thing that I thought of for NPCs would be a gang template. Seeing as gangs and their members are an integral part to most of the Underhive, it would make sense to have a system for generating different gangs. I imagined having a set template for a Juve/Ganger/Heavy/Leader and then having a list of characteristic/skill/talent/weapon modifiers for the different gangs. That way there is a set list of what the gangs have and what their members will be like, without having pages upon pages of the same four NPCs with different stats and equipment.

Dont know why the fluff sections were screwy, I'll just reformat them for he next version.

The Necromunda rulebooks are vague but very good for ideas, For more depth read the novels, there are about 12 of them also the Kal Jericho and Redeemer Comics were good for a look at the underhive. (I was lucky enought to get all the comics and three novels cheap) they are avilable in omnibus editions now though (but they are pricey.)

Well as you have put loads of work into a huge NPC project I wasn't a bit hesitant to mention it but hey here goes. The D10 NPC system my group developed (read: just me, but they use it too.)

1. Reduce all stats from 0-100 to 0-10 (rounding up.)

2. Average AV across all locations (note unarmoured locations.)

3. Amalgamate TB and AV into a single resistance stat.

4. Remove talents, traits and skills that don't effect combat, damage or movement. (NPCs can do anything the GM requires of them.)

(Optional for large engagements)

5. Ignore Res and divide Wounds by ten (rounding up) to convert to mook points.

As for gangs they will just be variants on a single template with a variety of weapons (simplfied NPC systems meaning they don't need talents and things.) House gang templates might materialise at some point but main house diffences are of characters and weapon chces more than notable stat diffences.

I'm thinking of this for Base low power ganger (starting PC comparable)

I've wanted to pick up the novels/comics, I'm glad to hear they aren't bad (WH40k novels are hit or miss) so I will keep my eyes peeled.

I like that system, it simplifies without taking away. I myself had statted up an average ganger, which could be used as an average Underhiver in a pinch, too. That system could be used for NPC gangs alongside the bestiary, as I am only doing the creatures and environmental "hazards" that are the non-statted ones.

EDIT: I was just mulling over the house gang templates, and I think that not only should the equipment and talents be different, but skills and characteristics probably should, too. I mean, an Escher is going to have a higher Agility than a Goliath, who would most likely have a higher strength. The different gangs can mostly be tied to one or two characteristics, which they could get a bonus. It might highlight the different strengths and weaknesses of the gangs better than just what they are shooting the players with.

You should make a kind of infamy rule. Sure it is kind of taking it from BC but it makes sense. I have quite a big collection of Necromunda and experience. The reason for the infamy rule is to represent becoming more famous and stronger. Big and small gangs try to beat you to prove their worth. The rule should be a mix of negativities and good stuff. For example, the Arbites are more interested what you do but getting rare goods, just show em your might.

This could work, gangs in Necromunda had a Reputation Rating, so it has a precedent...

We just had our last session with this group, as two of my players leave for a month and the other is moving away. Overall, the system works as it is right now, it just needs the general items from the table top to make it capable of shifting from straight adventuring to building a hideout/business venture/settlement.

Looking forward to when my two players return, and three of my former players coming in next week. I will have the chance to run the new Quirks system with my powergamer of a friend, and see how it all turns out. Should be good!