This was asked a while ago but I figured I would answer it here since I can't find it's original thread.

Q: Does Winnie the Pooh lvl 1 negate the added bonus of Equipment.
A: Yes (proof: text of Fat Bandit "The attack value of equipment cards and the support of friend cards does not get added to this card") since the value added to the equipment card counts as in attack value bonus, it gets added in with the value, then taken to 0 by Pooh.

No it doesn't.

Fat Bandit says:

"The Attack value from equipment cards and the support value from friend cards do not work against this card."

This has nothing for your agrument that Pooh zeroes out attachments, and actually hurts it, because it specifically says that equipment doesn't work against it, instead of "equipment doesn't add to the player card"

We have a comprehensive database online of almost all cards printed, and you still refuse to RTFC when attempting to formulate rules ideas. What's worse, you quote what you think the card does, and then nobody double checks it because you seem to have looked it up already. This is how we end up issuing errata for cards like Diz, because nobody bothers to read the **** card.

Fairbanks said:

I read the "****" card and I've looked on how power agruments have worked in the card of Dark Decks. Jaffer ruled that the agrument takes precedent over the decrease, so that being said in the case of Shadow lvl 1 you would get the +1 bonus, then have your POW cut in half from the new value. The same seems to be the case here because of the wording, namely the key word Attack Value with is added to the Player Cards Attack Value and then decreased to 0 by Pooh.

Also from what I've seen the same was done when you challenge someone on Deep Jungle level 3 with an equiped friend, the agruement (example Warhammer) is added to Donald lvl 1 (giving him a total of 6) which counts as 0 even with the equipment because the Support (and in a Player Cards case Attack) is reduced to zero after the power increase.

Quote from the Light and Darkness Equipment Rules 2nd Paragraph -
"Place Equipment Cards on Player Card and Friend Cards to equip them. As long as an Equipment Card is on a Player Card or Friend Cards, that Equipment Card's Attack/Support Value and/or Magic Value will be added."

Quote from Break of Dawn Rulebook p 12
"3. Support Value
The number on a red background
shows this card’s Support Value.
This number is added to the
Attack Value of the Player or
Friend Card possessing this card
during battles or challenges."

My interpertion of that is that the Value is added to the Player's Attack, which then would be cause for it to be negated by Pooh because it says addition to the Player's Attack Value.

If that still doesn't satify you will will be more than happy to have Brett or Liam send the question to Jaffer with evidence for both sides and allow for an official ruling, but I would like to point out to you sir that not so long ago you were yelling about no one reading the rulebook, well right there is two quote directly from it that pretty much, one of which spells it right out.

-Roxas
PS: Sorry Dave if came off a little edgy, no offense was meant anywhere in the post.

it was ruled for me at gencon that it doesn't zero equipment bonuses

Not by me right? I don't remember making that ruling....if I did it was one of those "on the spot" rulings made using my best guess.

haha I think it was you, though in fairness my memory is terrible, I do know that it came up and that's what I was told by someone, though maybe it was the leprechaun....

Roxas said:

See, the problem is that I did mean offense. Not to you as a person, but to these kind of kneejerk reactions to things and interpretations, when literal reading of the cards is what is needed when broken English/poor translations aren't involved.

Okay, so I'm going to illustrate the problem, and hopefully we can all agree that it, in fact, zeros the card (and negates Wakka). This will necessitate a ruling or ruling change on Deep Jungle lvl 3, if the ruling was actually made that, say, Warhammer doesn't add to Don's 0 there.

The problem: If Pooh lvl1 zeroes all equipment, he will also make it IMPOSSIBLE to clear worlds without magic. The wording on battling dark cards is the exact same as that of equipment during a battle or challenge. Now, the wording on challenging is different, and you compare total support instead of adding the support to your player card. In the event of a challenge, Pooh would still zero attack cards as well.

So, there it is. Ruling that Pooh specifically zeros the value ON the card and that it can never be non-zero while Pooh is out fixes this, takes care of the inevitable Wakka question (and Diz, can't forget Diz!), AND is the ruling that doesn't need to contradict other rules to make sense.

Following this, Deep Jungle would also be taken care of, and the select friend equipment that gets used would still get added.

Fairbanks said:

Sir I don't knee jerk or jump the gun. I was looking into that for a while before I decided to say anything about it. This game unfornuately though is mostly player interpretations of the the rules because of the wording and you can not honestly tell me that the wording in either of those two paragraphs does not suggestion, if not spell out, that the effect is the equipment and attack merge. I'll also repoint out a ruling made by Jaffer, a mod, about the power arguements and how they are added to the support value before a decrease takes place, namely dark cards and Shadow's ability.

That would be a problem, if anyone played Deep Jungle lvl 3. You're only option I'm seeing is a technique, magic or escape so it's not completely unbreakable, nor is Pooh indestructible, otherwise I might be inclined to agree despite the obvious wording of the rules.

In Fairbanks ' defense, I don't believe he's talking about Pooh lvl1 + Deep Jungle lvl3. I believe he's refering to the belief that, when you choose to initiate a Battle, any card you add to the battle (Friends, Magic/Friends, Attack) adds to the Attack Value of the player card (reference to Pg.24 of the rulebook)

If what you say is true, that Equiptment Cards bonus' are simply added to the Player Card Attack Value (then able to be nulled out by Pooh lvl1) then the same could be said for all cards that help boost the power of the Player Card (the only damaging card that doesn't, being Magic cards) This would then make it nearly impossible for a WR to defeat Dark Cards while a Pooh lvl1 is in play.

This would obviously make Pooh lvl1 far too broken to exist. And after seeing that all player-aiding cards have the same text as Equiptment cards (Pgs.8, 9, 12 & 13) this must not be the case.

I apologise if I read things incorrect, but I believe this is the current argument being made. I'm a bit light-headed at the moment (fever) and may not be thinking straight

No, devilmonkey, that is exactly what I'm saying. The rulebook states that, in ALL battles, the friend cards ADD to the player card, and it uses the same wording as for equipment. This means that, if Pooh lvl 1 is out, you have NO SUPPORT on your side of the table for battling dark cards.

The reason I said an errata would need to be issued to Deep Jungle is to prevent conflicting rulings on similarly worded cards.

Additionally, why POW doesn't even kind of matter here: every card that references something's POW (except Roxas) says that the card's support value is equal to half of the card's POW value. So, you have to say "what is this card's POW?" Okay, it's Y. Oh crap, I've got X shadows out now. It's now Y+X. Then you halve it.

I've changed my position on the argument, if you couldn't tell, Roxas. While I'm of the opinion that when someone says that the "player CARD" gets set to 0, it means the card's value is now zero instead of the value on the actual card. Then when calculating things, it would be 0+modifiers.

But that's irrelevant. Because we just broke WR over our knee if Pooh lvl 1 zeros out equipment, as it necessitates that friend cards and attack cards also get zeroed out by Pooh for battle, as they get added just the same as equipment. Challenges still allow friends (though not attacks) because challenges care about the total support on each side, and for some reason, you do not add your friends there, just attacks/equip.

Fairbanks said:

Yeah and Pooh say it makes a Player Cards attack value 0. It works the same, you add in the bonus, recalulate and it still gets set to zero because it's an addition to the value.

I'll ask Brett or Liam to ask Jaffer next chance I get so we can get this settled. Cause I see your point, but most the evidence points the other way.

No, it's not the same, and don't just quote the part you want to agree with and ignore the rest, because they are not even kind of the same issue.

You're ignoring the consequences of the ruling you're wanting, that it will cause friends to NEVER add support for battling dark cards, and will also make Sebastian obsolete (as if he weren't already, but still), as he makes all attack cards zero as well.

So, why my point of view should be the one implemented: it requires the least amount of hand waving at rules, as it doesn't require rewriting the rulebook. It's 10x easier to explain it to players that it takes that card (points at player card) and makes its value always zero. Doesn't care if your Wakka says it's +1. Doesn't care if your Diz boosted it. The value of the player CARD is zero. And, beyond that, equipment destruction is pretty limited in the environment for a reason: they want people to actually use equipment cards.

I can't even get behind why you would think, let alone want, Pooh to zero out the card AND equipment, but I still maintain that, if they rule this way, and then don't also say that it zeros out all friends for battles, they will be fundamentally rewriting the rules.

And I'm pretty sure that rulings are supposed to coincide with, not overwrite, the current rules.

I'll ask Brett or Liam to ask Jaffer next chance I get so we can get this settled. Cause I see your point, but most the evidence points the other way.

What evidence? Your "evidence" is the Dark Cards, which is NOT THE SAME. The only time you care about a player card's attack value is when you're battling or challenging. Coincidentally, that's the ONLY TIME that you add to it. And, as I said, if you zero that, then you have to zero all the friends. And then you told Aggro to put 3x Pooh in every deck to destroy WR.

Page 30 of the rulebook. Players Attack Value is seperate from additional Support/Attack Value from Attack cards. It specifically says that during a Challenge the total damage dealt is the players Attack Value + varied support from other cards, implying that they are seperate.

Going back to page 12 about Equipment, it's text is a copy/paste of the text used for Attack cards as well, this implies that Attack card and Equipment card's support is added in the same manner.

According to page 30, Attack card's support is separate from a player's Attack Value for the purposes of working out damage dealt.

That clarify anything?

It clarifies that I misread the bit about the challenge (pooh will only affect challenges if he affects equipment, and even then, only affecting the equipment), but it still stands about the battling dark cards, which was where the heart of the Pooh problem is.

Fairbanks said:

Funny cause you did the same thing a few posts up on one of mine sir. I believe you bypassed every post I made with evidence from the rulebook and went straight to that I was just assuming and pulling things out of my butt.

I see the consequence of the ruling just fine, added with what Truffles said, I've yet to see it be "end all" since Pooh is not by any means unable to leave the field or be played around.

You're point would require the rewrite of the rulebook since my support comes from the rule book itself along with a ruling from Jaffer on how power argument worked (it's relevant because coincidentally it does work the same, add power modification and then the reduction kicks in.) and it states that it is added to the player cards attack value.
Another example would be I play Pooh on your Sora lvl 1 it goes from 4 atk to zero you play an equipment card (say Oblivion) and that +3 is added to the players plus zero, giving them 3 atk as it is a permanent power boost until the card is discarded, since it is added directly to the player card, no longer being a separate value, it also gets reduced to zero.

I never said it zero's friends, I said Deep Jungle lvl 3 would, since it works actually the same way on friends with equipment.

Coinciding would be going with the rulebook, so you'll see why I'm not too concerned about being in the wrong as I have two direct quotes from the rulebook that verify my statement and you have, as you called it, a "knee jerk reaction" and a lot of wining about this so called “destruction of the meta game”. World Racer, as I’ve said before, has other options. You still have your friend cards, you have your attack cards, you have technique cards (which were made especially for WR), and you can even use friend denial if you want. So no it’s not WR ending, it just requires them to be prepared, something they should be anyway with the lack of a sideboard.

Page 24 of the rulebook says that Pooh destroys battling dark cards. Not you. The wording is the same for the benefit received from equipment as for adding friends in a battle.

Pooh says the player card. It is the easiest to explain this as being the CARD. Additionally, this would require a reversal of Deep Jungle, for the 1 person who plays friend equipment and battles/challenges on Deep Jungle. I presume that this reversal is much more sensible than having to change the wording used to describe equipment, which is the exact same as the wording for adding friends in a battle.

Or, you know, run Pooh, kill WR, be done.

I don't really care, I'm kind of done with this when you keep saying that Dark Decks and their POW is even kind of similar. A shadow affects a dark card like Wakka affects a player card. I lumped Wakka in the "things that would be zeroed," because he is something that specifically alters the value on the player card, which equipment does not. If you have to think of it this way, you can think of it as he hasn't drawn his sword yet, and thus it doesn't actually do anything for him (this isn't anything other than a pedagogical argument, please do NOT read into it).

The ruling I'm suggesting makes sense, doesn't kill non-magic WR, and is easy to explain without being overly powerful.

And if you think that only affecting the player card makes him weak, there are a few players at GenCon who may want a word with you. I rocked the lvl 1 Pooh in my deck solely to slow down other WR decks, as well as make aggro decks have to sacrifice something to challenge.

edit:

Page 23 says it perfectly: "During a battle, the attack value of the player card is the amount of damage the player deals to the dark cards at that location." That's the sound of Pooh+Phil+Dark Card worldblocking a player. Except that you don't really need Phil much, as so few people run magic anymore. And a sufficiently large dark card will take multiple magic cards to kill it, which means you've likely stalled out that WR for 3-4 turns as they try to build their hand.

I apologise if this seems dumb, but I'm trying to take a stand on this argument and I've hit something I don't quite get.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Example: Kim wants to play the Equipment Card, “Olympia.”
The card text states that only "Riku" or "Sora" can equip this
card. Kim plays the card on her "Sora" Player Card that does
not yet have a card equipped.

• Play Event Cards
A player can choose Event Cards from his/her hand and play
them by performing the Play Event Cards action. During this
action, the number of Event Cards a player can play is
unlimited.

The player should resolve the effect(s) on the Event Card's card
text and then discard the Event Card.

Example: Bill wishes to play the Promo Card “Event 1.” He
plays the card, causing both players to lose -1 HP. After each
player takes the loss, the card is discarded to Bill's discard pile.

• Play Magic Cards and Magic/Friend Cards
A player can play Magic Cards and/or Magic/Friend Cards by
taking the Play Magic Cards and Magic/Friend Cards action.
The number of Magic Cards and Magic/Friend Cards a player
may play is unlimited.

To play a Magic Card or Magic/Friend Card, either the Player
Card or one of the Friend or Magic/Friend Cards the player
controls must have a Magic Value equal to or greater than the
Magic Value of the card the player wants to play.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is my Page 30 of the rulebook. I don't read anywhere on here anything that could support either side of this argument on here (nothing about the Player Card Value, Support etc) If I'm on the wrong page or I'm quoting the wrong rulebook can someone please place me in the right direction?

Urgh...it's my PDF reader. It was saying that page 32 was page 30 for some godbeknown reason.

For clarification, I meant page 32.

Ahh, thank you very much Troth . Now I can try to make my arguement.

Roxas said:

I don't really think you do, as I don't think you're seeing what our argument is saying. I don't really see how our arguement would re-write the rulebook, but I will say this: you are 100% correct about the Modification > Reduction. Okay? I don't believe anyone will argue with you about this part. If Pooh lvl1 does as you say, it will in fact take place after you apply the modification of the equiptment. However, this isn't the point we are trying to make. And perhaps to help clarify this point, I will add in your example from the rulebook:

----------

Break of Dawn Rulebook Pg.12: Equiptment
3. Support Value
The number on a red background
shows this card’s Support Value.
This number is added to the
Attack Value of the Player or
Friend Card possessing this card
during battles or challenges.

----------

Okay. This to me is the main piece of evidence you are using to drive your argument, no? Okay, now look at this:

----------

Break of Dawn Rulebook Pg.8: Friends
4. Support Value
The number on a red background
shows this card’s Support Value. A Friend Card's Support Value is
added to the Player Card’s Attack Value during battles or
challenges.

Break of Dawn Rulebook Pg.9: Magic/Friends
4. Support Value
The number on a red background
shows this card’s Support Value. Just
as with Friend Cards, a Magic/Friend Card’s Support Value is
added to the Player Card’s Attack Value during battles or
challenges.

Break of Dawn Rulebook Pg.16: Attack Cards
2. Support Value
The number on a red background
shows this card’s Support Value.
This number is added to the Attack
Value of the Player Card during
battles or challenges.

----------

Do you see the pattern? THAT is the argument we are trying to make. ALL of these cards "add their Support Value to the Player Card" during battles and challenges. So what happens when you initiate a Battle against dark cards on your world?

----------

Break of Dawn Rulebook Pg.24: Start A Battle
Friend and Magic/Friend Cards that participate in battle add
their Support Value to the Player Card’s Attack Value .
Equipment Cards attached to the Player Card or Friend Cards
taking part in the battle also add their Support Values to the
Attack Value . Attack Cards and/or Magic Cards can also be
used to raise the Player Card’s Attack Value or deal damage
directly to the opponent’s Dark Cards (see below for details).

----------

I take these words directly from your posts, "add power modification and then the reduction kicks in". In a Battles case, the power modifiers are anything you add into the Battle . They may not have permanence like Equiptment Cards (or the POW increase of Shadow for Dark Cards) but they still add their Support Value to the Player Card. Then, once these are added, any Pooh lvl1 on the field would bring back the total power value of your Battling Player to...zero

Now, what Troth 's point was this:

----------

Break of Dawn Rulebook Pg.32: Challenge Procedure
Once both players have chosen to do nothing, they determine
the results of the challenge. Both the attacker and defender
count the damage dealt to each other. The amount of damage
dealt is equal to the Attack Value of a player's Player Card plus
the Support Values of all his/her participating Friend, Magic/
Friend, and Attack Cards. Magic Cards may also increase the
total Attack Value, as indicated by their card text.

----------

This would mean that Pooh lvl1's effect wouldn't work on Challenges because, at the end, the Player Cards Attack Value and the Support Value from cards added into the challenge are kept separate. And that's all fine and good for Challenges, but it said nothing for the argument of Battling.

I don't know how Deep Jungle lvl3 got in this mix (maybe as an example?) so I decided to leave explanation of that out.

This is the clearest I can type of what my point is in this arguement. I have read through all the posts, looked through the rulebook countless times and came up with this conclusion. I mean absolutly no disrespect to anyone with this post, I am simply trying to clarify my interpretation of this ruling to whoever would like to read it. If there really is some loop-whole in this logic, please point it out & rip it apart.

I've thought of that DM. The word that makes them different though is possessing. That's all I got to say about that, I feel like I repeat myself everytime I post here anymore, so you have my arguements (this is meant at no one in particular) so knock yourselves out.

Roxas said:

You could have told me that, liek, 5 posts ago lol would'a saved me a good half hour of researching

Well this is one of those rulings that, in my eyes, will not be solved by players. I'm tellin ya, it's those one-worders that rip this game apart

devilmonkey said:

That I agree with my friend.