Well (and I apologize for highjacking the thread), I think the root power-creep cause is that Dark Heresy was designed as a gothic horror game for low-power-level characters, esp. in the beginning (so characters start off as more or less average guys facing an Evil Universe Far Greater Than Them)

A lot of the player base was not happy with this. (I'm sure we remember all the conversartions about how starting Acolytes are incompetent.) A lot of people don't want to play Dark Heresy as Space Call of Cthulhu, but as the pulp action genre that you get in Abnett's books, for instance. So you get the power creep that started in Blood of Martyrs, as well as the linear, almost video-game-like, combat-oriented structure of the Apostasy Gambit.

Since we've already derailed...

Making DH Space Cthulhu was a bad design choice in the first place.

The epicness that is 40k is completely washed out it's not even funny. What would have been fun was a combination of over-the-top action, cosmic horror, and investigation. Pretty much what later products try to deliver.

I wonder who first came up with the brilliant idea: Hey, lets make an Inquisition-based RPG, only we'll make sure the PCs are really, really crap.

I've had players comment on this, nothing that it's no wonder that the Imperium is failing if these acolytes are all that stands between Humanity and Utter Ruination

Since we've already derailed...

Making DH Space Cthulhu was a bad design choice in the first place.

The epicness that is 40k is completely washed out it's not even funny. What would have been fun was a combination of over-the-top action, cosmic horror, and investigation. Pretty much what later products try to deliver.

I wonder who first came up with the brilliant idea: Hey, lets make an Inquisition-based RPG, only we'll make sure the PCs are really, really crap.

I've had players comment on this, nothing that it's no wonder that the Imperium is failing if these acolytes are all that stands between Humanity and Utter Ruination

See? This is exactly what I mean.

I really liked Space Call of Cthulhu, and do not like over-the-top action. Other people are the opposite.

I like a mix of both. Over-the-top-in-space-call-of-cthulhu with a small amount of Shadowrun.

Epicness is really where you get it.

Ruined city with explosions in the background having to charge into it to dislodge some chaos cult? Yeah can be epic.

Hive city with a zombie infestation and your character is running fomr building to building, barely a step ahead of the undead horde with that revolver with 3 bullets he found a block down, taken from some half eaten cadaver without a second thought as he was running away? That's epic too.

The adventure from the GM kit is best suited for mid-level PCs- it is not an introductory scenario.

While the adversaries are fairly unpleasant, I don't think this meant that it was intended for mid-level PCs. Black Industries seemed happy enough throwing PCs into unfair situations that if they tried to take on in a straight up fight they would just die. I know of one group who dealt with the problem by going "Erm... there is something hideous in that windmill... lets set it on fire."

Even if you didn't host the Haarlock Trilogy, House of Dust and Ash (back of Disciples) is pretty solid. Definitely not for greenhorns, though.

I have never had a chance to play it, but I was going to use it in my campaign if it had lasted long enough. I like the overall feel, but yes, not for beginners. Firstly, the approach towards the PCs does seem to be that they are more trusted servants at this point, given a task that needs some discretion, rather than being thrown in because there is no one else, or just to see what happens (ala original the free RPG day adventure, which certainly feels like the Inquisition could care less what happens to the players).

Since we've already derailed...

Making DH Space Cthulhu was a bad design choice in the first place.

The epicness that is 40k is completely washed out it's not even funny. What would have been fun was a combination of over-the-top action, cosmic horror, and investigation. Pretty much what later products try to deliver.

I wonder who first came up with the brilliant idea: Hey, lets make an Inquisition-based RPG, only we'll make sure the PCs are really, really crap.

I've had players comment on this, nothing that it's no wonder that the Imperium is failing if these acolytes are all that stands between Humanity and Utter Ruination

I far far prefer the feel of the original Dark Heresy stuff. I want to play in the dark and grimy world of 40k, not play Space Marines etc. I want to feel the world is a horrendous place that is out to get you, and you are just struggling to survive. Now, this can change (and higher rank Dark Heresy PCs can have quite potent abilities, even without the silliness of Ascension), but it should be goddam earned.

The worst of the series has to be Deathwatch, and this is the one that tried to get the whole epicness the most. NOw, there were various reasons for this. 1) The game breaks down at this level (the inherent limits of the mechanics become painfully obvious), 2) FFG made some boo boos with their choices re the mechanics (dull dull horde rules, silly weapon stats, incredibly difficult to understand squad modes etc) and 3) Space Marines make terrible characters to play, and the adventures they will tend to go on get very repetitive, no matter what FFG tried to say. Space Marines are super soldiers, and their primary mission is to go out and murder aliens in whatever way possible... this gets slow quite quickly. A bit of variety can be added, but it only goes so far, and doesn't reach the variety that DH and RT characters can have. It is also the most dependent on setting knowledge. DW characters should have a handle on how they should be played, and on what is going on. DH characters shouldn't know what is going on (at least at the beginning), so a lack of player knowledge is actually in keeping with the setting.

While I really really realy like DW for its books to read (great art, great fluff, great everything), I have to agree that playing such kinds of scenarios definitely gets some problems over time as the variations are not sufficient. This goes for DW, and for a lesser degree also for OW (although here, the mechanic issue is not that bad). BC is a rather exotic breed - interesting to look into but nothing for me on the long run.

RT and DH remain as really outstanding choices.

One rather investigation-based, the other more free with some economic parts and a lot of classical adventure-style.

Both really fun to play with a lot of atmosphere and good potential for a lot of variety.

In my opinion, it would be the best decision to give RT and DH their second editions and run these as main lines. Making them rule-compatible and focus on rather 2 main lines than 5 different ones.

Space Marines could still be kept as reinforcement characters and get even an own chapter to describe and crrate them. For all other fluff, there are the DW books that so far exist.

Well (and I apologize for highjacking the thread)...

Actually, a lot of this is stuff I wanted to know anyway, so thanks! The only thing left that I am wondering about is WHY is Ascension so "broken"? Nobody has ever really explained it to me. It seems like one of those things people acknowledge but never discuss.

The only thing left that I am wondering about is WHY is Ascension so "broken"? Nobody has ever really explained it to me. It seems like one of those things people acknowledge but never discuss.

A lot of it may be hearsay nowadays, but there were some legitimate brow-raising topics that were hotly discussed some years ago when Ascension was released. I suppose it would be more accurate that some contents of the book are broken, rather than Ascension as a whole? For example, most of its careers such as the Storm Trooper may work fine, but if you really wanted to, you could make a Vindicare Assassin who gets Unnatural Toughness (which I still say is kind of broken in DH in general) and, on top of that, a dozen Dodges each round (see here ). I've heard the Psychic stuff is also pretty bad, but as I've never been very interested in caster-type stuff I am only relying on hearsay myself on that one.

From what I understand of Ascension, Fettering + Unnatural Willpower made it virtually impossible for Psykers to EVER fail a PT test, while simultaneously removing the threat of Psychic Phenomena/Perils. Leading to Psychic power spam and combining powers to truly ridiculous effects. One example I remember was comboing Cellular Control (immunity to Fatigue) or Regeneration, with Inferno (from Ascension). In case you don't know, Inferno creates an omnidirectional firestorm to erupt from the Psyker, expanding 10 meters per round. The "drawback" to Inferno, is that every round the Psyker maintains it he gains one point of Fatigue. Except Cellular Control allows the Psyker to become immune to Fatigue and Regeneration instantly removes Fatigue.... Well. You have a Psyker that can literally summon an infinitely expanding firestorm. Stuff like that is what makes Psykers broken in Ascension.

Well (and I apologize for highjacking the thread)...

Actually, a lot of this is stuff I wanted to know anyway, so thanks! The only thing left that I am wondering about is WHY is Ascension so "broken"? Nobody has ever really explained it to me. It seems like one of those things people acknowledge but never discuss.

Two thing s really. Vindicator Assassins that cannot be hit (literally). Primaris Psykers that can do anything.

Not balance issues, but bad design -- living weapons as player characters in a game that is supposed to be about politics and intrigue. Badly developed rules for said politics and intrigue.

Now I have never actually played Ascension, but I have studied the book relatively well (God do I spend my lfe well or what?) and I think that these criticisms are accurate.

Vindicares assassins can only roll a single dodge from an attack; worse case a re-roll with fate point, but he still can get hit...sure they can dodge 12 different attack, but they miss one roll and they get the wound.

Personally it's more the fact that he'll be perched somewhere for days before the rest of the team show up, make a few nice shots and then fade away until the next time he's needed. He's really more of a tool than a part of a cell to me; something you should get using influence rather than suddenly having some elite training done quickly (said training also starts at birth for 'real' Vindicare Assassins).

As for the psyker...well, it's a power gimmic true, but really, if your player uses that every **** time, then you got a player problem, not a class/power/system problem....Some people want to be powerful true, but that's like having a team running around with silenced autoguns with fire selectors and manstopper rounds..why bother with the setting if you're gonna ignore it completely?

Vindicares assassins can only roll a single dodge from an attack; worse case a re-roll with fate point, but he still can get hit...sure they can dodge 12 different attack, but they miss one roll and they get the wound.

You're missing something important.

A Vindicare Assassin can get a Dodge of over 100%.

Still a 100 means a fail.

Still a 100 means a fail.

There is no 100 autofail in Dark Heresy to my knowledge.

99% is good enough anyway.

Vindicares assassins can only roll a single dodge from an attack; worse case a re-roll with fate point, but he still can get hit...sure they can dodge 12 different attack, but they miss one roll and they get the wound.

With Unnatural Agility, that Vindicare isn't likely to miss a dodge ever, except in the case of catastrophic failure. Sure, he might fail it once every four sessions, but they can just fatepoint it away that one time they screw it up, and saying: "Well, he might fail it once every four sessions" is hardly heartening news, when you're dealing with a character that is otherwise nearly invulnerable.

Then there is the fact that a properly munchkined Primaris Psyker deals enough damage to reliably kill a Lord of Change every round. Or was it several? It was ridiculous, that's for sure

Again, that also rise up a problem of the player, not just the system.

That's not a problem with the system. That's a problem with the Primaris.

Well, we both get the idea on what we mean.

With Unnatural Agility, that Vindicare isn't likely to miss a dodge ever, except in the case of catastrophic failure. Sure, he might fail it once every four sessions, but they can just fatepoint it away that one time they screw it up, and saying: "Well, he might fail it once every four sessions" is hardly heartening news, when you're dealing with a character that is otherwise nearly invulnerable.

What's catastrophic failure? DH doesn't have an auto fail/critical failure system unless I've missed something.

With Unnatural Agility, that Vindicare isn't likely to miss a dodge ever, except in the case of catastrophic failure. Sure, he might fail it once every four sessions, but they can just fatepoint it away that one time they screw it up, and saying: "Well, he might fail it once every four sessions" is hardly heartening news, when you're dealing with a character that is otherwise nearly invulnerable.

What's catastrophic failure? DH doesn't have an auto fail/critical failure system unless I've missed something.

My group's always played with the "on a 100 it's an automatic fail" (And the GM will usually cook up something extra-bad for failing that hard-- your sword breaks on the other guy's armor, you actually zone out and miss a bunch of crucial events, etc. etc.) Wasn't aware that there wasn't an auto-fail in Dark Heresy.

...In that case, a Vindicare with Unnatural Agility will be more or less, virtually invulnerable, and pretty much the only thing I personally can think of that could kill one (as the rules are written) is the Primaris Psyker :/

With Unnatural Agility, that Vindicare isn't likely to miss a dodge ever, except in the case of catastrophic failure. Sure, he might fail it once every four sessions, but they can just fatepoint it away that one time they screw it up, and saying: "Well, he might fail it once every four sessions" is hardly heartening news, when you're dealing with a character that is otherwise nearly invulnerable.

What's catastrophic failure? DH doesn't have an auto fail/critical failure system unless I've missed something.

My group's always played with the "on a 100 it's an automatic fail" (And the GM will usually cook up something extra-bad for failing that hard-- your sword breaks on the other guy's armor, you actually zone out and miss a bunch of crucial events, etc. etc.) Wasn't aware that there wasn't an auto-fail in Dark Heresy.

...In that case, a Vindicare with Unnatural Agility will be more or less, virtually invulnerable, and pretty much the only thing I personally can think of that could kill one (as the rules are written) is the Primaris Psyker :/

I'm pretty sure you're playing with a house rule.

Anyway yeah, 99% is close enough to 100%.

BTW in RAW the Vindicare can dodge invisible psychic powers, so your Primaris is screwed too.

With Unnatural Agility, that Vindicare isn't likely to miss a dodge ever, except in the case of catastrophic failure. Sure, he might fail it once every four sessions, but they can just fatepoint it away that one time they screw it up, and saying: "Well, he might fail it once every four sessions" is hardly heartening news, when you're dealing with a character that is otherwise nearly invulnerable.

What's catastrophic failure? DH doesn't have an auto fail/critical failure system unless I've missed something.

My group's always played with the "on a 100 it's an automatic fail" (And the GM will usually cook up something extra-bad for failing that hard-- your sword breaks on the other guy's armor, you actually zone out and miss a bunch of crucial events, etc. etc.) Wasn't aware that there wasn't an auto-fail in Dark Heresy.

...In that case, a Vindicare with Unnatural Agility will be more or less, virtually invulnerable, and pretty much the only thing I personally can think of that could kill one (as the rules are written) is the Primaris Psyker :/

I'm pretty sure you're playing with a house rule.

Anyway yeah, 99% is close enough to 100%.

BTW in RAW the Vindicare can dodge invisible psychic powers, so your Primaris is screwed too.

Would that extend to "non-damaging" psychic powers like Dominate? Stuff like Bio-lightning, Force Bolt, Holocaust, etc. I could see, but even though I'd generally accepted the Vindicare as hilariously OP I didn't realize it actually extended to stuff like mind control.

Would that extend to "non-damaging" psychic powers like Dominate? Stuff like Bio-lightning, Force Bolt, Holocaust, etc. I could see, but even though I'd generally accepted the Vindicare as hilariously OP I didn't realize it actually extended to stuff like mind control.

It's very vague. "Attacks that cannot normally be dodged" at the GM's discretion.