Once I get a spare half hour, I'll figure out how the following two characters stack up against each other (both have the same xp cost spent on talents and stat increases, I think.).

Ambidextrous, Two-Weapon Wielder, Lightning Attack, Swift Attack, Bladedancer, with chainsword

Swift Attack, Crushing Blow, +10 Strength, + 10 Weapon Skill, with chainaxe.

Furious assault and hammer blow also stack beautifully, allowing for two Concussive (2) attacks at +30 to hit with 1/2 SB on extra penetration.

I'm not too worried about the feasibility of axes

OK here it is; three attacks all based on a character with a 40 in all stats + 2750 points of xp spent, using three different styles of fighting. XP costs are those of the baseline stat and talent costs in BC and OW. The target is a Stormtrooper with TB3 and Heavy Carapace (AP6).

The first has Ambidextrous (250xp), Two-Weapon Wielder (Melee) (500xp), Swift Attack (500xp), Lightning Attack (750xp), and Bladedancer (750xp) = 2750xp total. He is Lightning Attacking with dual-wielded chainswords, which do 1d10 + 2 + 4 = 1d10 + 6 Pen 2; 7.5 + 6 = 13.5 average damage – AP4 – TB3 = 6.5 average damage per hit after reduction.

The second has Crushing Blow (750xp), Hammer Blow (750xp), +5 Weapon Skill (250xp), +10 Strength (750xp), and Frenzy (250xp) = 2750xp total. With Frenzy, his WS is 40 + 5 + 10 = 55 and his Strength is 40 + 10 + 10 = 60. He is making an All-Out Attack with Hammer Blow; his damage is 1d10 + 4 + 6 + 3 = 1d10 + 13 Pen 5; 7.5 + 13 = 20.5 – AP1 – TB3 = 16.5 average damage per hit after reduction.

The third has Ambidextrous (250xp), Two-Weapon Wielder (Melee) (500xp), Two-Weapon Wielder (Ranged) (500xp), Swift Attack (500xp), Sidearm (750xp), and BS+5 (250xp) = 2750xp total. He is attacking with a Swift Attack with a chainsword and a Semi-Auro Burst with a bolt pistol. The chainsword does the same damage as the first guy per hit (6.5 after reduction); the bolt pistol does 7.5 + 5 = 12.5 – AP2 – TB3 = 7.5 per hit after reduction.

Mr. Math says:

The first guy makes a Half Action Aim and 2 Lightning Attacks. His WS is 40.

He does an average of 10.4 damage per turn.

The second guy makes an All-Out Attack.

He does an average of 14.025 damage per turn (plus the Concussive effect, which I am not considering).

The third guy aims with his sword, makes a Swift Attack with that, and then fires semi-auto with his bolt pistol.

He does an average of 11.1 damage per turn.

Dual-wielding LA guy is actually lowest of all.

And the all out guy can attack twice with furious assault, doing a bunch more damage.

Yay brutal axe warriors.

Thanks for the math!

Axe guy does do more damage, though the drawback is that because he's going All-Out, he can't parry or dodge that turn. In a one-on-one duel, this is okay, IF you manage to kill the guy you're attacking. If you fail to kill your opponent, or if your opponent was smart enough to bring a buddy along, then you'd better be ready to tank some damage. Which, honestly, seems to represent axe-wielders perfectly; sacrificing defense for pure offensive power.

Sword-and-board seems to be a combo nobody uses, though. If anyone uses a shield in Dark Heresy it's more often than not in conjunction with a gun.

Sword-and-board seems to be a combo nobody uses, though. If anyone uses a shield in Dark Heresy it's more often than not in conjunction with a gun.

After talking to Mr. Math, I'm not sure why.

Sidearm is a very cost-effective Talent. Think about it. Like Blademaster and Gunslinger, it costs 750xp (assuming it's the same as BC/OW base cost). However, BM and GS are not cost-effective, because 750 is what it costs to raise your WS or BS up +10, which does the same thing as BM or GS, as well as a lot more. Sidearm on the other hand affects _BOTH_ WS and BS.

After some consideration, I think people really, really exaggerate the effectiveness of Lightning Attack. They see the potential for a huge number of hits and don't realize that that potential is going to be actualized very rarely.

Let's take a Genestealer. King Melee Combat! WS65, Multiple Arms (4), Lightning Attack, Ambidextrous, and Two-Weapon Wielder (Melee). It has the POTENTIAL to get 20 hits (wow!). However, the actual number of _average_ hits is 5. Which is a lot, but not the proverbial cuisinart that everybody seems to have in mind. And the chance of getting 20 hits is (pulls out calculator) 0.000625% (!!).

Sword-and-board seems to be a combo nobody uses, though. If anyone uses a shield in Dark Heresy it's more often than not in conjunction with a gun.

After talking to Mr. Math, I'm not sure why.

Sidearm is a very cost-effective Talent. Think about it. Like Blademaster and Gunslinger, it costs 750xp (assuming it's the same as BC/OW base cost). However, BM and GS are not cost-effective, because 750 is what it costs to raise your WS or BS up +10, which does the same thing as BM or GS, as well as a lot more. Sidearm on the other hand affects _BOTH_ WS and BS.

After some consideration, I think people really, really exaggerate the effectiveness of Lightning Attack. They see the potential for a huge number of hits and don't realize that that potential is going to be actualized very rarely.

Let's take a Genestealer. King Melee Combat! WS65, Multiple Arms (4), Lightning Attack, Ambidextrous, and Two-Weapon Wielder (Melee). It has the POTENTIAL to get 20 hits (wow!). However, the actual number of _average_ hits is 5. Which is a lot, but not the proverbial cuisinart that everybody seems to have in mind. And the chance of getting 20 hits is (pulls out calculator) 0.000625% (!!).

That's gamer psychology for you. Most people (myself definitely included) tend to look at the upsides of a potential gaming strategy while paying much less attention to the drawbacks. We say, "Woah! I can cause like eight chainsword hits with a Lightning Attack if I roll a 01! That's awesome!"

As a side note, Sidearm is not a talent in the DH Beta Version 2.0. There's another talent called Two-Weapon Master which basically rolls Gunslinger, Blade Dancer and Sidearm into one talent.

Hey, remember its easier to parry furious assault than lightning attack.

Apparently Two Weapon Wielder (Melee and Ranged) AND Two Weapon Master don't need Ambidextrous...

Hey, remember its easier to parry furious assault than lightning attack.

I am not sure about this because Furious Assault is extremely ambiguously worded (unless the wording is changed in the Beta).

"If the character successfully hits his target..."

What does "hits" mean? "Hit" is used in two different senses in 40K RPG: either 1) succeed in an attack roll or 2) succeed in an attack roll that the target does not evade. I believe the former was the intention, because this talent dates to pefore BC and appears to work off the old Swift Attack mechanic of allowing two separate to-hit rolls.

Cymbel -- Ambidextrous is not a requirement for Two-Weapon Wielder, but it is required to get the full benefit.

Hey, remember its easier to parry furious assault than lightning attack.

I am not sure about this because Furious Assault is extremely ambiguously worded (unless the wording is changed in the Beta).

"If the character successfully hits his target..."

What does "hits" mean? "Hit" is used in two different senses in 40K RPG: either 1) succeed in an attack roll or 2) succeed in an attack roll that the target does not evade. I believe the former was the intention, because this talent dates to pefore BC and appears to work off the old Swift Attack mechanic of allowing two separate to-hit rolls.

Cymbel -- Ambidextrous is not a requirement for Two-Weapon Wielder, but it is required to get the full benefit.

In the beta, Devastating Assault (replaces Furious Assault) reads: "When the character hits with an All-out Attack and the attack is not Dodged or Parried ..." This does indeed make it much easier to evade an All-out Attack than a Lightning Attack... However, the talent Inescapable Attack gives the target of your attack -10 to evasion checks for every DoS on your attack roll (only applicable to single attacks, called shots and all-out attacks). With this talent, it becomes much easier for the axeman to land their first hit.

Also, I believe the Two-Weapon Master talent eliminates penalties for dual-wielding weapons. This means that the Ambidextrous talent provides no benefit once you buy Two-Weapon Master. IMO Ambidexrous should be a prerequisite for TWM.

Thanks for the Beta clarifications!

Ambidextrous is a Tier 1 talent compared to Two-Weapon Master's Tier 3, however, so at best it is a stopgap to make dual-wielding suck less while you save up your XP.

Previous systems had Ambidextrous be the final piece to eliminate all the dual wielding penalties, but it looks like they took it out this time.

Can you fire semi- or full auto bursts in close combat? I remeber it was only single shots in DH1.

I am 99% certain you can now.

Can you fire semi- or full auto bursts in close combat? I remeber it was only single shots in DH1.

You can in BC/OW.

This was made possible by the changes to the to-hit mods for different kinds of attacks, which were necessary to prevent pistols from being better than melee weapons in close combat (among other things).