Honestly though, I would love more detail on aliens in BC. I want to hire Kroot mercs and have Hrud spies. I want a Dark Eldar beastmaster with a group of rare and exotic carnivores I can feed people who defy me to. The rules for alien allies are limited because loyalists should not be having any contact with aliens. BC is clearly the place to include them

Absolutely. There were a bunch of Chaos-corrupted xeno species glimpsed in the Gaunt's Ghosts novel Traitor General ; BC seems like the perfect way to explore that aspect of the 40Kverse.

Honestly though, I would love more detail on aliens in BC. I want to hire Kroot mercs and have Hrud spies. I want a Dark Eldar beastmaster with a group of rare and exotic carnivores I can feed people who defy me to. The rules for alien allies are limited because loyalists should not be having any contact with aliens. BC is clearly the place to include them

Absolutely. There were a bunch of Chaos-corrupted xeno species glimpsed in the Gaunt's Ghosts novel Traitor General ; BC seems like the perfect way to explore that aspect of the 40Kverse.

I mentioned this somewhere else recently, but it's implied over and over again that Chaos can corrupt everything and anything. The Craftworld Eldar stave off chaos by rigorous discipline and dedication to singular goals. The Dark Eldar have consciously and meticulously weeded out their literal souls and the psyker genes from their population. Orks are single-minded to the point of hilarity, yet have been known to be corrupted.

It's a repeating theme amongst sentient species that they have to somehow deal with the issue of chaos corruption, lest they fall completely to chaos. If they don't deal with it, there has to be some other extenuating circumstance that allows them to resist the influences of the Ruinous Powers - the Tau are almost soulless, and Kroot are animalistic, having an incredibly strong taboo when it comes to eating anything seemingly affected by the warp.

So why do we never get to see Chaos Eldar? Eldar - Craftworld, Dark, Exodite, Corsair or otherwise - that have been corrupted by Chaos? Maybe a Craftworld that have fallen to Nurgle in their attempts to preserve equilibrium. Maybe a Dark Eldar cult that are worshipping Slaanesh, attempting to gain his favour, or maybe worshipping the act of being fed upon, becoming one with She who devours .

Why don't we get to see Chaos Orks anymore? Yes, they are somewhat resilient, but that's not the same as immunity. The same goes for the Tau. We've seen literal machinery being completely taken over by Chaos - even the soulless aren't entirely immune.

Or an entire planet overtaken by kroot practising ritual cannibalism & incest, an entire world filled with eating and being eaten perpetually, a writhing mess of corrupted kroot-kind dragged back down the evolutionary ladder, barely above beasts of burden.

I'm not even requesting rules to play these. Just exposition, information, a setting, an adventure. Something.

Except that's not true; it's part of the fluff forever, for better or worse. GW has made it clear several times that all sources are equally valid, and if we go by traditional canon rules, it is canon until superseded by newer sources.

Who's the current Chief Librarian of the Ultramarines?

It's exactly true. Between Rogue Trader (1st Ed) and 2nd Ed 40K there was what you could best describe as a rationalisation of the universe. Rogue Trader was a haphazard mishmash of various stories and plot hooks and not everything was fully formed. A lot of the institutions that exist in current 40K were only hinted at in 1st Ed and a lot of things either didn't exist or were quite different to what they are today.

When they did 2nd Ed, one of the releases was "Codex Imperialis", a book that Codified a lot of the ideas from 1st Ed whilst dumping or significantly changing a lot of the extraneous stuff (no more half-Eldar Librarians, for example). The Codices that came after that first book continued to add and expand the universe, creating new universal constants (bolters do X, Marines function like Y, the Guard are Z, and so on). Since then GW have changed things now and then, but generally speaking from the start of 2nd Ed onwards GW has spent a lot of time getting the "vision" of 40K right, leaving behind the weirdness of 1st Ed almost completely.

BYE

When they did 2nd Ed, one of the releases was "Codex Imperialis",

Codex Imperialis was included in the core box game along with the rulebook and the wargear book. It was not a separate release.

It was an all-in-one army book that, when combined with the thinner "war for armageddon" pamphlet allowed players to start playing with their chosen faction immediately, the codex being optional. I miss when GW still did things like that. It also includes rules for squats.

However, as I mentioned before FFG included an adventure in which a group of Acolytes entered the warp unprotected. This defies one of the 'immutable' laws of 40k (to use your words). However since its published by an IP license holder it can be considered 'canon'.

So here's the paradox: Either we have to accept that FFG is able to include things not mentioned or current with GW canon, or we have to accept that these 'immutable' rules may in fact be malleable, or the third option is that we as consumers can discount works based on our personal opinion on its validity from previous sources (but this would mean there was no coherent universe, only personal interpretations in which everything is open to be interpreted) What's your take on this?

Codex Imperialis was included in the core box game along with the rulebook and the wargear book. It was not a separate release.

It was an all-in-one army book that, when combined with the thinner "war for armageddon" pamphlet allowed players to start playing with their chosen faction immediately, the codex being optional. I miss when GW still did things like that. It also includes rules for squats.

How does that in any way impact what I just said?

And there's no reason why someone couldn't enter the Warp without suffering its effects. The Warp doesn't work in a predictable manner - that's the entire point of Chaos. And who's to say they weren't touched by the Warp? Isn't that kinda up the GM? And if the adventure you're referring to is the last section of The Chaos Commandment, there are places where they can suffer Insanity/Corruption (not to mention that which they might suffer when facing Daemons) and if we wanted to get really technical the area they enter is specifically said to be a pocket dimension created by the BBG. If this is not the book you were referring to, please correct me.

As to your three choices:

Choice 1: Not really valid. GW has to approve everything, and I doubt they'd approve something that goes against their vision of 40K.

Choice 2: There are set parts of the 40K fluff that do not change. The Horus Heresy happened. The Emperor sits on the Golden Throne. Space Marines are all male. There are no half-Eldar Librarians working for the Ultramarines. All the crazy stuff from the pre-2nd Ed days is either reinterpreted into something more fitting with the way 40K now works (the story of Huron Blackheart, specific details of the Horus Heresy, and so on), or is simply gone (Imperial Fists capturing Space Slaan before boarding Hive Ships to talk with Zoats - no, I'm not making that example up, that's from a book, specifically a book that no longer counts).

Choice 3: It's a kind of golden mean fallacy. It's the "we can do whatever we want" answer, which because of that isn't really an answer. As I've said before, people can do whatever they want and no one has any right to stop them. What people can't do is insist that their own method of doing something is just as valid as the actual stuff that counts. So if you want to have female Space Marines (as a common example), then go right ahead, but they don't exist in 40K-proper.

BYE

Except that's not true; it's part of the fluff forever, for better or worse. GW has made it clear several times that all sources are equally valid, and if we go by traditional canon rules, it is canon until superseded by newer sources.

Who's the current Chief Librarian of the Ultramarines?

It's exactly true. Between Rogue Trader (1st Ed) and 2nd Ed 40K there was what you could best describe as a rationalisation of the universe. Rogue Trader was a haphazard mishmash of various stories and plot hooks and not everything was fully formed. A lot of the institutions that exist in current 40K were only hinted at in 1st Ed and a lot of things either didn't exist or were quite different to what they are today.

When they did 2nd Ed, one of the releases was "Codex Imperialis", a book that Codified a lot of the ideas from 1st Ed whilst dumping or significantly changing a lot of the extraneous stuff (no more half-Eldar Librarians, for example). The Codices that came after that first book continued to add and expand the universe, creating new universal constants (bolters do X, Marines function like Y, the Guard are Z, and so on). Since then GW have changed things now and then, but generally speaking from the start of 2nd Ed onwards GW has spent a lot of time getting the "vision" of 40K right, leaving behind the weirdness of 1st Ed almost completely.

BYE

You're ignoring the point; newer releases does not invalidate older releases. This is, as you said, "Not [...] open to debate or interpretation."

Even if we take the popular approach of canon validity counting from the oldest sources until invalidated by a newer source - an approach that specifically does not apply to Warhammer - lots of older fluff is never specifically negated by newer fluff. Including, as far as I know, the Half-Eldar Chief Librarian of the Ultramarines, no matter how stupid you personally think that is. Unless, of course, you care to answer my previous question.

I really find it suprising that you managed to score this writing gig with this attitude, which goes entirely against GW's own position on the fluff , and I sincerely hope that you're fired.

I also find it hilarious that you think that "GW has spent a lot of time getting the "vision" of 40K right" , when nothing could be further from the truth. If they did, the entire universe wouldn't be riddled with inconsistencies and you wouldn't see large-scale makeovers of pre-existing species. You're talking about the same company that both removed Squats because they specifically didn't want WH40k to just be "Warhammer Fantasy in Space" and then made Necrons Tomb Kings.. in space.

Codex Imperialis was included in the core box game along with the rulebook and the wargear book. It was not a separate release.

It was an all-in-one army book that, when combined with the thinner "war for armageddon" pamphlet allowed players to start playing with their chosen faction immediately, the codex being optional. I miss when GW still did things like that. It also includes rules for squats.

How does that in any way impact what I just said?

I just think if you're going to be condescending you should be more accurate in your wording, otherwise it sounds like you are unfamiliar with the source material you hold such strong opinions over.

And there's no reason why someone couldn't enter the Warp without suffering its effects. The Warp doesn't work in a predictable manner - that's the entire point of Chaos. And who's to say they weren't touched by the Warp? Isn't that kinda up the GM? And if the adventure you're referring to is the last section of The Chaos Commandment, there are places where they can suffer Insanity/Corruption (not to mention that which they might suffer when facing Daemons) and if we wanted to get really technical the area they enter is specifically said to be a pocket dimension created by the BBG. If this is not the book you were referring to, please correct me.

No that is very much the book I am referring to, and the entire premise of that section countermands everything GW has published on the matter (I'm not the only one who thinks so either, go check the Amazon reviews). That's why the importance of Gellar fields is stressed so much. If it was approved by GW, its another change towards what is often considered an immutable law, which is entering the warp without protection is a VERY BAD THING . For comparison look at the section in Ark of Lost Souls where the Gellar field fails. All I see with the argument that its a bubble in the warp is handwaving, which tells me you think anything is possible given a decent explanation, which would mean we agree.

Or your saying that FG/GW can handwave something and its instantly canon. But if someone else does it its not, or should be considered impossible until there is an official word on the matter. What if I had written that adventure instead of it being published through this company? Do you think that scenario would be well accepted by the majority of fans?

Even if the handwaving is accepted. How far can a company create something away from the perceived vision as it exists in the consciousness of the fanbase before it doesn't count? Who really holds the decision? Again, not to sound like a broken record but Rick Priestly is no longer working for the company. The current designers are people like you and me, or even Matt Ward. Its all 'expanded universe' at this stage.

On a side note, your reply to option one is very reminiscent of the argument Christians use for the bible being the word of god.

I sincerely hope that you're fired.

Dude, I enjoy your posts a lot on this forum and I always enjoy what you bring to the table but seriously, that's not cool. I find it surprising as well, but perhaps the attitude he's showing is what's needed to work within tight constrains as a freelancer and in this case its actually beneficial from a professional standpoint. Lets not let this turn into something ugly, its sitting nicely on 'heated debate' right now

Dude, I enjoy your posts a lot on this forum and I always enjoy what you bring to the table but seriously, that's not cool. I find it surprising as well, but perhaps the attitude he's showing is what's needed to work within tight constrains as a freelancer and in this case its actually beneficial from a professional standpoint. Lets not let this turn into something ugly, its sitting nicely on 'heated debate' right now

The Immutable laws thing seems to be a crazy argument considering how much GW change their minds and re-interpret their old stuff.

There may come a time when they decide all the work you've put all your effort and hard work into is simply no longer true. It would be unfair to argue for all those who enjoy your particular vision that it's dead and gone so don't use it or even think about it.

...and I sincerely hope that you're fired.

And as you've now decided to make this personal, this will be the point where I bow out of the conversation.

...

Yeah that was a bit rough, whilst we don't always see eye to eye I don't wish anyone to be stripped of their livelihood, especially when you consider it is only a game.

All the best for the future and remember creativity should always rule over stagnation, just to make this debate sound like Tzeentch vs Nurgle ;-).

...and I sincerely hope that you're fired.

And as you've now decided to make this personal, this will be the point where I bow out of the conversation.

...

It's not personal, when you're a professional. The fact that you are factually wrong, can be proven factually wrong, yet still insist that you are right about something that directly impacts your work - the essence of which the setting is wrought - is very much cause for concern and a valid reason for calling for your termination.

But if you chose to take the easy way out, that's entirely up to you. Just don't paint it up as some huff-puff indignation parade of "My oh my, you made this personal, now I'm out, the fact that I don't have a leg to stand on has nothing to do with it! Good day! I said GOOD DAY!".

Yeah that was a bit rough, whilst we don't always see eye to eye I don't wish anyone to be stripped of their livelihood, especially when you consider it is only a game.

All the best for the future and remember creativity should always rule over stagnation, just to make this debate sound like Tzeentch vs Nurgle ;-).

Two important points;

There are other jobs out there and as freelancer, this unlikely forms the basis of his entire livelihood. Even if it does, the fact that someone needs the job isn't really a good reason to hire them if they are bad at their job. You wouldn't hire a child-molester as a kindergarten teacher just because he needs a job, nor Homer Simpson to manage your nuclear plant.

Second, creativity for it's own sake is absolutely useless. Point in case: All 'modern' art ever.

From one thing to another (please excuse the double-post); Obliterator Viruses?

While Obliterators are something all of Chaos does, and maybe it would fit Khorne more, the Obliterator Viruses are, well.. viruses.

Could it fit into a Tome of Decay?

Im gonna go ahead and assume you meant Nurgle, not Khorne.

Yeah, I'd like to see the obliterator virus in this book, and it does seem like the place for it (obviously including Maulers or whatever the CC version is called as well). I kind of feel like it should be a gift of the gods or similar though, I don't really like the idea of obliterator being a class you 'move into'. Its a disease, it'd be good if we could treat it as such

Im gonna go ahead and assume you meant Nurgle, not Khorne.

Yeah, I'd like to see the obliterator virus in this book, and it does seem like the place for it (obviously including Maulers or whatever the CC version is called as well). I kind of feel like it should be a gift of the gods or similar though, I don't really like the idea of obliterator being a class you 'move into'. Its a disease, it'd be good if we could treat it as such

Nono, I meant Khorne - Obliterators, raging fusions of marine and machine, capable of manifesting weaponry from just about any part of their body, is pretty much as khornite as it goes, in concept.

But at the same time, the Obliterator Virus *is* a virus, so it would definitely be an appropriate place to have it. And it's not like *all* Obliterators are Khornite - afaik, they can be part of any army dedicated to any god.

And yes, definitely. It should be a disease and I'd love it if it also interacted with Gift of the Gods somehow. Maybe the progression of the disease could be tied to it, somehow?

Coming to a shop near you:

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=4686

Now stop quarrelling and whining!