First make it clear that Dodge skill have bonus from cover (p. 74)

Second , to avoid/mitigate the most annoying thing of binary dodge (that when you are caught with a weapon pointing at your face you just say "hey bastard roll for initiative!" and dodge his attack), make Dodge skill have penalty for open ground. Something like:

- 30 for being caught open ground at point-blanck range of a weapon

- 20 for being caught open ground at short range of a weapon (flat 10 metres? x3 perception bonus of the attacker? x2 PER + BS bonus?)

- 10 for being caught open ground (new default for open ground, as with update #5 you can Dive for Cover)

+ 0 for having half/little cover

and so on

Third, option for Called Shot. Something like "you can impose -30 penalty for you BS attack and make it harder to dodge it imposing -20 penalty to Dodge of the defender.

I also think a negative modifier to dodge would be a possible solution.

One should definitely be used with the currently UP called shot.

With the new talent "Nowhere to hide", called shot gets even less useful.

Why not impose -30 on dodge, if the attacker uses a called shot (as the attacker gets -30 also compared to the standard attack AND has to use a full action, this would be fair).

And it would affect both ranged and melee, which is good.

And it would affect both ranged and melee, which is good.

Melee have feint already and more, it is Called Shot

Called shot is for melee also, not only for ranged.

As a defender you already can run (-20 BS), Dive for Cover, have cover (+10/+20/+30 Dodge) and Dodge is a skill that you can learn (Known, Trained, Experienced, Veteran) and BS is not.

Dodge bonus can be increased with skills, Guarded actions, and cover; but attack bonus can also be increased with aiming, range bonuses and weapon mods.

I think the best way to deal with high-Dodge characters is to simply shoot them with a lot of weapons at once. They can only make one (two with Step Aside) dodges per round after all. I don't feel bad about having the strongest enemies focus on combat-capable party members -- the carapace-armored Warrior looks much more dangerous than the robed Mystic, so the enemies are trying to get the toughest enemies out of the way first.

Dodge bonus can be increased with skills, Guarded actions, and cover; but attack bonus can also be increased with aiming, range bonuses and weapon mods.

I think the best way to deal with high-Dodge characters is to simply shoot them with a lot of weapons at once. They can only make one (two with Step Aside) dodges per round after all. I don't feel bad about having the strongest enemies focus on combat-capable party members -- the carapace-armored Warrior looks much more dangerous than the robed Mystic, so the enemies are trying to get the toughest enemies out of the way first.

Most important RPG rule: shoot the mage first.

That's only a thing because D&D has terrible rules.

I never played D&D. So it has nothing to do with that for me.

In Shadowrun, it was always "Geek the Mage!" - no D&D there either

I think it can be taken rather as a rule to kill the unpredictable first, than anything directly rule related.

I thought it was agreed that binary dodge is just too limiting.

Like the idea about penalties to dodge based on range/situation/cover. Definitely something to look into more. After all , its harder to dodge a lazer than it is a solid projectile and its certainly harder to dodge a shotgun spread than a single shot from very far away.

Personally , I think that Dodge should have a lot of limitation when it comes to using it in melee. For example : Not enough room to effectively dodge , bumping into other people , getting out of range when dodging which procs an attack of opportunity and so forth. I don't think dodge should be as effective in melee as parry.

I thought it was agreed that binary dodge is just too limiting.

If you go through the various threads, there are very strong opinions on both sides of it. Arguably, it's the most contentious issue of Beta2.

As proof of that on FFG's side, they started with binary Dodge, updated it to UNopposed Dodge & now they're reupdated it back to binary Dodge. Going through Update #5 right now, I see that it is the one single item that's been crossed out.

Like the idea about penalties to dodge based on range/situation/cover. Definitely something to look into more. After all , its harder to dodge a lazer than it is a solid projectile and its certainly harder to dodge a shotgun spread than a single shot from very far away.

Personally , I think that Dodge should have a lot of limitation when it comes to using it in melee. For example : Not enough room to effectively dodge , bumping into other people , getting out of range when dodging which procs an attack of opportunity and so forth. I don't think dodge should be as effective in melee as parry.

Good thoughts Syrius but, in the interest of discussion, I'll point out that Dodge vs. modern ranged weapons require an absolute unmitigated suspension of disbelief that melee weapons do not. While, as you suggest, the speed of light (Las weapons) is monumentally faster than explosively propelled projectiles (Solid Projectile) - the latter still hums along quite nicely I think at something like 9-12 miles/second...far far far faster than the fastest human on the planet has any chance whatsoever in dodging. Generally ducking behind cover is one thing, but if a character is reacting to a specific ballistic ranged shot already fired his way? That's simply absurd...but we play with it, of course, in the interest of...well...in brief, fun & balance, I guess.

In contrast, dodging a melee attack is completely doable in the real world & has been done in abundance since antiquity, right?

Not saying there can't/shouldn't be melee-dodging modifiers or anything about melee-dodge vs. melee-parry. Just saying that, in a discussion comparing limitations on Ranged-Dodge vs. Melee-Dodge - there's a case to be made that Ranged-Dodging has infinitely more problems than Melee-Dodging.

Just sayin'. Cheers

Yeah , the whole "speed of projectile" is just speculation. The part about melee + dodge modifiers is something to focus on. I waffle too much

It's weird how so many people interpret Dodge as "There is a bullet in the air headed in my direction and I'm now going to move out of the way" and not "That guy over there is leveling his gun at me. I better move!"

Dodge bonus can be increased with skills, Guarded actions, and cover; but attack bonus can also be increased with aiming, range bonuses and weapon mods.

I think the best way to deal with high-Dodge characters is to simply shoot them with a lot of weapons at once. They can only make one (two with Step Aside) dodges per round after all. I don't feel bad about having the strongest enemies focus on combat-capable party members -- the carapace-armored Warrior looks much more dangerous than the robed Mystic, so the enemies are trying to get the toughest enemies out of the way first.

Most important RPG rule: shoot the mage first.

This rule came into being during 1st and 2nd Edition D&D because anyone capable of playing a good mage could easily cause serious damage to a party of PCs.

It had nothing to do with terrible rules.

This rule came into being during 1st and 2nd Edition D&D because anyone capable of playing a good mage could easily cause serious damage to a party of PCs.

It had nothing to do with terrible rules.

I would argue that spell casters being dangerous masters of reality while martial types can be safely ignored is a good example of the results of bad rules.

In my opinion, the shooter is always going to have the upper hand. It's far easier in reality to attack and kill someone that has minimal cover and inferior weaponry.

Dodge should be a last ditch attempt to avoid being killed and in reality it would be more luck than anything. Perhaps the real issue is how good cover and defensive tactics really are.

It's weird how so many people interpret Dodge as "There is a bullet in the air headed in my direction and I'm now going to move out of the way" and not "That guy over there is leveling his gun at me. I better move!"

I think most people know that when you dodge a shot from a gunman , you're not dodging the bullet. You're dodging the aiming.

It's weird how so many people interpret Dodge as "There is a bullet in the air headed in my direction and I'm now going to move out of the way" and not "That guy over there is leveling his gun at me. I better move!"

I think most people know that when you dodge a shot from a gunman , you're not dodging the bullet. You're dodging the aiming.

And currently with binary dodge, the attacker has no chance to improve his anticipating of the defenders movement by his DoS without taking a talent (INescapeable attack).

It's weird how so many people interpret Dodge as "There is a bullet in the air headed in my direction and I'm now going to move out of the way" and not "That guy over there is leveling his gun at me. I better move!"

I think most people know that when you dodge a shot from a gunman , you're not dodging the bullet. You're dodging the aiming.

That's true but it's also kind of boring and lacks any tactical approach whatsoever. Not to mention that realistically, the roll should be opposed. The skill of the intended target to evade vs the skill of the shooter to not let them get away. In realistic situations, the odds are against the evading person.

There could be a Divination power for increased dodging though which enables the psyker to foresee where the shots will come from.

It's weird how so many people interpret Dodge as "There is a bullet in the air headed in my direction and I'm now going to move out of the way" and not "That guy over there is leveling his gun at me. I better move!"

I think most people know that when you dodge a shot from a gunman , you're not dodging the bullet. You're dodging the aiming.

That's true but it's also kind of boring and lacks any tactical approach whatsoever. Not to mention that realistically, the roll should be opposed. The skill of the intended target to evade vs the skill of the shooter to not let them get away. In realistic situations, the odds are against the evading person.

I prefer it opposed ! I want it to be opposed.

It's weird how so many people interpret Dodge as "There is a bullet in the air headed in my direction and I'm now going to move out of the way" and not "That guy over there is leveling his gun at me. I better move!"

The "I'm going to get out of the way" reaction to guns being leveled at you is to get behind cover - which is different than a "Dodge Action" in Dark Heresy. Getting behind cover is a general move in reaction to guns being leveled at you and affords you the protection of that cover.

In contrast, Dodging follows a specific attack and only when that attack is successful . If the attack isn't successful the character doesn't perform a Dodge Action. Dodging is very specific to a successful attack.

So it's not weird to think that Dodging is in reaction to a specific ranged attack successfully about to strike you...because that's exactly what mechanically happens. But since matrix-like dodging of ranged attacks is obviously absurd, we all suspend belief and choose to "re-interpret" that something else happened.