Hi all, new thread for update #3!

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=4557

This is a short one as mentioned earlier, as we're still working on some items that will appear in the next one. Thanks for all the great feedback we're getting!

–Tim

And as Combat is the topic for the week, what do folks think about Delay?

Right now it is a Half Action, and we are thinking of updating the text thusly:

Page 177, Delay: Replace the description with “Instead of acting immediately, the character waits for a better opportunity. When he chooses Delay, his turn immediately ends. Any time before the start of his next turn, the character can perform a Half Action of his choice—even though it is not currently his turn. This later action counts as being part of his turn, so for example he cannot use it to make another attack action if he made one before taking the Delay action. If this Half Action is not used before the start of the character’s next turn, it is lost. If two or more characters both attempt to perform a Half Action gained from Delay at the same time, they must make an Opposed Agility test to see who acts first.

Alternatively, this could simply be made a Full Action. Thoughts?

–Tim

How about making it a Full Action at the expense of the PC's Reaction?

“Instead of acting immediately, the character waits for a better opportunity. When he chooses Delay, his turn immediately ends. Any time before the start of his next turn, the character can perform up to a Full Action of his choice- even though it is not currently his turn- at the expense of one Reaction. If this Full Action is not used before the start of the character’s next turn, it is lost. If two or more characters both attempt to perform any Actions gained from Delay at the same time, they must make an Opposed Agility test to see who acts first."

No, I think it would be better if that is half action. That way a character might move into position, and sneak up on some heretics, that are about to open the door, or something.

Also guy seriously, do something with sniper rifles. With the current rules set, they are simply OP.

Let me give you an example from recent OW session.

We played Old soldiers scenario from GM kit. Players found some shotguns, and were pretty happy about it ("this would come handy on close encounters"). They captured the general, and the psyker was casting Gate of Infinity to teleport them with the general, while two guys were standing in the corridor, defending from storm troopers counterattack. At first they were about to use shotguns, but then realised they'd deal 1d10+7 damage, while their long lases deal 1d10+5 with Pen 3, on the start, plus 2d10. So storm troopers came in, bam two shots, two kills.

Next

Dark eldar caught up with them, Lord Kalkus Veth jump from the Venom, and BAM! headshot, from the ratling, with his comrade, that bans people from using reactions.

Ork warboss was felled with two shots from long las.

The talent Unavoidable Strike, will negate the last disadvantage, that accurate weapons will have, and that is easy dodge. A BS 40 guy, with accurate weapon half action aim +20, fires single shot +10, on a short range +10 (maybe with red dot +10), has 90% chance of hitting, getting 5DoS easy, giving -50 to dodge to anyone. Bam - one shot - one master lvl opponent with 20 wounds dead.

Make this Tier 3 talent, if you really want this talent to exist. But better, forget, that it existed.

My feedback so far:

1.) the Update itself is rather minor - nothing critical here yet - I hope Update 4 will be a big one...

2.) currently, delay seems to be too flexible for me with its half action. If someone delays his action, he should delay the complete action (full) and

a.) get only a half action as the delayed action

or

b.) gets a full action as the delayed action but needs to sacrifice his reaction

In my oppinion, letting a player use a half action, then delay and use another half action without any "costs" is too exploitable.

I think the proposed wording is still unclear. I refer to the thread I made about this very topic a few weeks back.

The problem is that it is not clear if you can take the Delay Half Action as your second Half Action on your turn. Basically you need to clarify whether the Half Action you use later is:

a) The same one you "use" to Delay, i.e you're just postponing the Half Action until later

b) your other, unused, Half Action. Ie you're "burning" a Half Action in order to take the other one later than usual.

Making it a Full Action is good for clarity, but I personally like option a better

Always keep in mind that also your enemies might (and will) use this.

It also would make the Init order much less predictable if you can delay your actions 1:1...

Still going to keep saying that Trade isn't the crafting skill despite being used for crafting in its own rules and tech use doesn't need that ability.

I'd also still like to see much more in the way of skills and talents in character creation spread out across Role, Background and Homeworld (put literacy in homeworld)

And as Combat is the topic for the week, what do folks think about Delay?

Right now it is a Half Action, and we are thinking of updating the text thusly:

Page 177, Delay: Replace the description with “Instead of acting immediately, the character waits for a better opportunity. When he chooses Delay, his turn immediately ends. Any time before the start of his next turn, the character can perform a Half Action of his choice—even though it is not currently his turn. This later action counts as being part of his turn, so for example he cannot use it to make another attack action if he made one before taking the Delay action. If this Half Action is not used before the start of the character’s next turn, it is lost. If two or more characters both attempt to perform a Half Action gained from Delay at the same time, they must make an Opposed Agility test to see who acts first.

Alternatively, this could simply be made a Full Action. Thoughts?

–Tim

This seems like a good solution to the problem. The full action approach might be the best as it gives players the possibility of getting a free action in before doing the delay (very much like the clause that stops double attacks/concentrations.

The only question would be can you interrupt another players turn (shot as they step out of cover for example) or do you have to wait for a gap between rounds.

As to the other suggestion of making it a full round delay with a lose of reaction, seems like it might be too powerful (especially once characters get step aside). Personally I'd like delay to be an occasional thing not something players use every fight.

And as Combat is the topic for the week, what do folks think about Delay?

Right now it is a Half Action, and we are thinking of updating the text thusly:

Page 177, Delay: Replace the description with “Instead of acting immediately, the character waits for a better opportunity. When he chooses Delay, his turn immediately ends. Any time before the start of his next turn, the character can perform a Half Action of his choice—even though it is not currently his turn. This later action counts as being part of his turn, so for example he cannot use it to make another attack action if he made one before taking the Delay action. If this Half Action is not used before the start of the character’s next turn, it is lost. If two or more characters both attempt to perform a Half Action gained from Delay at the same time, they must make an Opposed Agility test to see who acts first.

Alternatively, this could simply be made a Full Action. Thoughts?

–Tim

This seems like a good solution to the problem. The full action approach might be the best as it gives players the possibility of getting a free action in before doing the delay (very much like the clause that stops double attacks/concentrations.

The only question would be can you interrupt another players turn (shot as they step out of cover for example) or do you have to wait for a gap between rounds.

As to the other suggestion of making it a full round delay with a lose of reaction, seems like it might be too powerful (especially once characters get step aside). Personally I'd like delay to be an occasional thing not something players use every fight.

In my oppinion, it should NOT be allowed to interrupt other players turn, as that is what Overwatch is for.,

I agree. I also think the Full-Action is the best way to do it, in order to encourage people not to use it. Combat drags on enough as it is, and having everyone delaying all the time just makes it worse

Outlaws can still use a chainsword to hurt you but not a regular sword.

Everyone should start with WT(Low-Tech)

Outlaws can still use a chainsword to hurt you but not a regular sword.

Everyone should start with WT(Low-Tech)

WT Low-Tech should be divided into Melee and Ranged.

The Melee version should be given to the starting characters already, but not the rather exotic Low-Tech melee.

Also guy seriously, do something with sniper rifles. With the current rules set, they are simply OP.

Let me give you an example from recent OW session.

We played Old soldiers scenario from GM kit. Players found some shotguns, and were pretty happy about it ("this would come handy on close encounters"). They captured the general, and the psyker was casting Gate of Infinity to teleport them with the general, while two guys were standing in the corridor, defending from storm troopers counterattack. At first they were about to use shotguns, but then realised they'd deal 1d10+7 damage, while their long lases deal 1d10+5 with Pen 3, on the start, plus 2d10. So storm troopers came in, bam two shots, two kills.

Next

Dark eldar caught up with them, Lord Kalkus Veth jump from the Venom, and BAM! headshot, from the ratling, with his comrade, that bans people from using reactions.

Ork warboss was felled with two shots from long las.

I think it's both hilarious and sad that your experiences with Only War are applicable to the Dark Heresy 2 beta. The next updates are going to be minor tweaks, but the final DH2 system will be OW with a new character creation system and an awkward, tacked-on Subtlety system with no clear mechanical purpose.

Hopefully by the time they redo Rogue Trader they'll have devised a way to do an interesting system without the wonky dice.

I am also very afraid that they might not do any huge change at all.

Thats horrible. At least some issues should be taken seriously, most importantly Fatigue, opposed evasion & armour caps

If the devsnow think OW-compatibility is the no.1 rule - fine ! Ok !

But that does not mean by any way to not correct some of the issues named in the forum.

Even larger changes can be done and still be fully compatible with the previous lines.

Given the time constraints between now and when the next update (the combat system update) is due I fully expect it to get the same treatment as the first three updates: minor tweaks, spelling corrections, and edge-case clarifications.

That doesnt live up to the expectations at all.

Also guy seriously, do something with sniper rifles. With the current rules set, they are simply OP.

I think it's both hilarious and sad that your experiences with Only War are applicable to the Dark Heresy 2 beta. The next updates are going to be minor tweaks, but the final DH2 system will be OW with a new character creation system and an awkward, tacked-on Subtlety system with no clear mechanical purpose.

Hopefully by the time they redo Rogue Trader they'll have devised a way to do an interesting system without the wonky dice.

Several things.

First, the inescapable attack is just wrong on so many levels. You get rid of dodge and people just die immediately. It also has the perverse effect of making it harder to dodge kill shots from full auto, meaning there is now NO defense against getting turned to hamburger when someone rolls a low number against you. (e.g. Hit with two degrees of success, 2 bullets and -20 to dodge. Hit with 5 bullets, -50 to dodge and dead). I agree with some of the posters that it should be at least tier 3 and preferably tier three with some weird aptitude to make it expensive as all getout (like perception and intelligence..... you have to see the opening and have the intelligence to use it).

Second, I don't see what was wrong with the DH2B1 idea of dodge being an opposed roll every time. These issues will resolve themselves without the need for inescapable attack if it is opposed. Not to beat a dead horse here since I am sure that you won't go back to it, but I actually really liked the opportunity to design my combat round using AP. If I wanted to fight defensively, I could have more dodge, but didn't attack very effectively.

Third, sniper rifles illustrate how powerful added dice are in this system. Many times in DH1, we would fight a demon with a defense of 15 and the only weapons that could penetrate its armor were the sniper rifle and the man portable laser cannon.

I liked the idea from DH2B1 of making the accurate weapons heavy weapons, so that they must be braced before use and only have a field of fire. This limits their deadliness unless the sniper is set and ready to ambush (which is what they are really used for anyway).

And as Combat is the topic for the week, what do folks think about Delay?

Right now it is a Half Action, and we are thinking of updating the text thusly:

Page 177, Delay: Replace the description with “Instead of acting immediately, the character waits for a better opportunity. When he chooses Delay, his turn immediately ends. Any time before the start of his next turn, the character can perform a Half Action of his choice—even though it is not currently his turn. This later action counts as being part of his turn, so for example he cannot use it to make another attack action if he made one before taking the Delay action. If this Half Action is not used before the start of the character’s next turn, it is lost. If two or more characters both attempt to perform a Half Action gained from Delay at the same time, they must make an Opposed Agility test to see who acts first.

Alternatively, this could simply be made a Full Action. Thoughts?

–Tim

I don't have a problem with your revised text except that I would want it clarified if this inserted action is an interrrupt or not. Can I activate the delay in the middle of another character's action or must I wait for in between characters? I like there being a cost to delay (only the half action), and the option to use half the action on your turn to move into position like another poster mentioned.

I'd like to see:

Get rid of Inescapable Attack, make all dodges opposed skill tests (even single shots)

Any chance of a reintroduction of discipline specific PotW? That was a really cool addition.

Re-introduce the bracing rule for accurate weapons.

INESCAPABLE ATTACK

I think that with the update 3 version of INESCAPABLE ATTACK it could easily get out of hand combined with lightning attack. you already have to achieve the same DOS as the attacker to fully avoid a lightning attack, but if you apply penalties again on top of this, it will be impossible... i think they should go back to the previous, the one in update 2, or just get rid of it an make attack/evasion a normal opposed test (which it should be anyway IMHO, as it was in beta v1)

I generally dislike 'perfects', be they perfect attacks or defences.

Inescapable Attack more or less falls into the category of Perfect Attack.

Penalties to Dodge rolls are fine, forcing re-rolls of succesful dodges are fine.

Denying dodge rolls is bad game design.

A couple of more things that I have now noticed now that we have playtested some more that I would like to see errata'd:

The flame rules are back to DH1 style and kill you. If you get hit by flame, even if it does no damage, you are out of the combat and have a good chance of dying. Suddenly, all these conversations about weapons are irrelevant, as the most deadly encounter out there is a bunch of flunkies with molotov cocktails! Realize that the average person is going to last 3-5 turns before going unconcious, and the average chance of putting yourself out (even if you don't get killed from dropping prone in melee) is 10-20%. Most people will then just die when hit by a fire bomb, not to mention a pyromancer or a cleric with a flamer.

What was wrong with the way that you did this in DH2B1? We applauded the change when it arrived in beta 1 as we thought it fixed one of the really bad rules in DH1.

Also, the shock rule needs to be looked at. Stun? Really? For a weapon that you can start the game with? Stun is harsh and takes the player out of the game for minutes, which is bad table management. You hit someone with a T=30 and they will average 3 degrees of failure, stunning them for 3 rounds, which is 10-15 minutes of game time. Is it fun to make someone sit there while their character gets pummelled (or killed by flame!). You should find some other mechanic that doesn't take the player out of the game.

One more thing, that you always write in the rules and then take back in the errata...

I would really like to go to a system where parry blocks melee and dodge blocks ranged. Allowing dodge to block anything overpowers the agility stat.

I actually really liked the DH2B1 original version where you had one skill, evade, which had three stats attached to it depending upon what you wanted to evade. WS for melee, Agil for ranged and WP for pyschic.

And I lied, one more thing that we couldn't find in the rules. How do you do unarmed attack without the specialty talents? Does it require WT-Low tech to use? Can you parry? Can you have a lucky glove to give you a custom grip? The situation called for a bar fight and we were stumped on how to adjudicate.