The assumption that Elite Advances can't/shouldn't form a part of the character's background is a bit silly when Untouchable is the main Elite Advance they're showing off; a trait you're born with.

Actually, they specifically mention in the description of the Untouchable that it could be a dormant ability. So Simple Jack can wake up one morning to the terrible feeling that he is in fact an Untouchable, but Acolyte Mary can't do the same with the Sororitas.

That's an idiotic rationale on part of the writers, though. Suddenly waking up one day and realizing that you don't have a soul is one thing - having that soul and then lose it because apparently your soulless-ness was dormant during a large part of your life is just.. I don't know what to say.

Untouchable really should have a sticker on it saying that it can only be taken on creation - but there's too many issues with DH2 Untouchable vs. Fluff Untouchables to list.

I can't wait to see what rationale they'll think of next, to explain why Untouchables can get Psyniscience same as any other character.

Well, my example is the Tech-Priest who is actually pretty similar to a Sororitas (as far as origins go). The Tech-Priest is not an Elite Advancement option - it is represented by the Adeptus Mechanicus Background that gives the Mechaniucs Implants trait to the character. Even though by your logic it should be an Elite Advancement because that trait is nothing to sneeze at.

Hmm? I never said that Tech-Priests should be an Elite Advancement, nor did I imply that it should be. Do you feel that you cannot properly depict a Tech-Priest with the assigned Background without suggesting to make that Background more powerful than the average background?

Because if so, maybe it should be an Elite Advance. I'm not saying it should be, but it seems like you are saying it should be, based on my logic. In what way would you consider the Adeptus Mechanicus Background more powerful or less balanced than the other Backgrounds? Or is it just the Mechanicus Implants that are rubbing you the wrong way?

I think he's saying that the Mechanicus Implants give the background a distinctive advantage compared to the others.

I think he's saying that the Mechanicus Implants give the background a distinctive advantage compared to the others.

Yup.

Uhmm... I think the SoB makes perfect sense as an elite advance! I also think Schola progenum should be it's own homeworld! (as it was in DH1). There's no rule I see that prevents a character from taking an elite advance in the beginning provided they qualify! (IE Psykers and untouchables!)

In this case it would be as follows:

Experience : 500 pts

Prerequisites:

Homeworld: Schola progenum

Background : Adeptus ministorum

Gender: Female

Willpower: 35 +

Gm Guidance:

The adeptus sororitas are selected from an early age from candidates in their Scholas. As such the Gm is encouraged to require that this package be taken VERY early in the characters career (Preferably at game start).

Instant changes:

Character gains the Pure faith talent/trait (Not decided which it should be) and the ability to purchase pure faith talents.

Character gains weapon proficiency: Bolt weapons

Character gains a Godwyn deaz pattern bolter or bolt pistol and Light powered armor as starting equipment.

As everyone no doubt notices my requirements for the SoB are VERY strict and the Exp cost is still very high! This intentional as the benefits in FP and equipment are also VERY good (Especially for the non combat orders!)

The adeptus sororitas are selected from an early age from candidates in their Scholas.

LOL, they are chosen to be a Sororitas when they are little children... The character should buy this Elite Advancement before she chooses her Background to go with the proper timeline .

Also, the Pure Faith talent is pretty "meh". 500xp is blood-boilingly high for it.

Instead, I propose the following Elite Advancement:

FAITHFUL

Experience Cost: Free

Prerequisites: Willpower 40+

Instant Changes: The character gains the Pure Faith talent and gains access to the Faith talents.

And that's it. The Power of Faith for everyone!

The adeptus sororitas are selected from an early age from candidates in their Scholas.

LOL, they are chosen to be a Sororitas when they are little children... The character should buy this Elite Advancement before she chooses her Background to go with the proper timeline .

Also, the Pure Faith talent is pretty "meh". 500xp is blood-boilingly high for it.

Instead, I propose the following Elite Advancement:

FAITHFUL

Experience Cost: Free

Prerequisites: Willpower 40+

Instant Changes: The character gains the Pure Faith talent and gains access to the Faith talents.

And that's it. The Power of Faith for everyone!

Psykers are born that way too! As are untouchables! (I don't really buy into the late bloomer thing. Especially for untouchables!

Costs were boilingly high on purpose! Reason, Powered armor and bolter as free equipment! (As well as the relevant wp)

I like your faithful idea but I would call it a trait (Thus included in SoB package). Pure faith is too rare IMO to be reduced to a simple talent. In the previous core systems it was only given to two classes; SoB's and Missionaries (In RT). Hardly seems like it would be open to just anyone!

Psykers are born that way too! As are untouchables! (I don't really buy into the late bloomer thing. Especially for untouchables!

You can become a psyker or an untouchable later on, even though you had lived your whole life as an average person. It is logical to make those powers into something a character can discover later on in his career.

Stretching the Elite Advancements into Background Land is not a good idea IMHO as at this rate, we should turn the Adeptus Mechanicus, the Imperial Guard, the Arbites and even the Administratium/Ministorium Backgrounds into Elite Advancements too.

All of those listed backgrounds have the option to provide relatively low ranking members; you can play a lowly tech-adept, or an IG conscript, etc. But in terms of Battle Sisters, even your generic rank and file sister is capable of going toe to toe with things that would make the aforementioned lowly mooks run screaming, if they don't die before they get the chance.

I agree with Mr. Cruise. Personally, I've always been in favour of allowing all sorts of characters to team up - the setting offers sufficient potential for almost any combination of people. However, things will begin to get awkward for other characters if they are constantly outshone in their selected specialisation, because ultimately everyone in the group deserves their five minutes of coolness.

So if it really has to be a militant Sister, either tone her down further, or do like Black Industries did in Inquisitor's Handbook and offer a progression from Novice to fully fledged Sister. At least this way the player gets to experience the real thing later on, rather than something that had to be nerfed - even if it's just "nerfed" in paranthesis, such as by simply not giving the character the starting gear she ought to have on the basis of her profession.

On a sidenote, checking back on the Homeworlds, I feel the "Shrine World" Homeworld would be suitable enough for the Schola Progenium, as it seems to convey a similar idea of brainwashing. True, there is also a focus on martial training in the Schola, but given that none of the Homeworlds including Feral and Hive really add much in terms of combat, it may seem unfair to set the Schola Progenium apart.

All of those listed backgrounds have the option to provide relatively low ranking members; you can play a lowly tech-adept, or an IG conscript, etc.

I don't think so. The number of starting skills and the power level of the background bonuses are both pretty high for a low-level starting character. At worst, they are pretty much equal to a freshly initiated Novitiate.

Oh, and I don't know why we are arguing over Background balance. i mean, it is not like the current Backgrounds are super-duper balanced (so to say)... And now I'm looking at you Mr. "I have several essential starting skills, a free chainsword and one of the best Aptitudes" Outcast.

All of those listed backgrounds have the option to provide relatively low ranking members; you can play a lowly tech-adept, or an IG conscript, etc.

I don't think so. The number of starting skills and the power level of the background bonuses are both pretty high for a low-level starting character. At worst, they are pretty much equal to a freshly initiated Novitiate.

Oh, and I don't know why we are arguing over Background balance. i mean, it is not like the current Backgrounds are super-duper balanced (so to say)... And now I'm looking at you Mr. "I have several essential starting skills, a free chainsword and one of the best Aptitudes" Outcast.

I agree with this! To the point where it's one of the thing I E-mailed the dev's about. Outcast should have Primitive weapons not "Chain" weapons. Just sayin...

I completely agree with Cruise and Lynata on this. I don't really have anything to add.

As for regular people "becoming" Untouchables.. no. Just.. no. That's just.. no.

I have no idea what they were thinking. By this point, I'd be happier if they'd just scrap everything they've written on Untouchables. Just throw it out. If they specifically want an Elite Advancement to show off, show off something else, there's no shortage of things to be in WH40k.

All of those listed backgrounds have the option to provide relatively low ranking members; you can play a lowly tech-adept, or an IG conscript, etc.

I don't think so. The number of starting skills and the power level of the background bonuses are both pretty high for a low-level starting character. At worst, they are pretty much equal to a freshly initiated Novitiate.

Oh, and I don't know why we are arguing over Background balance. i mean, it is not like the current Backgrounds are super-duper balanced (so to say)... And now I'm looking at you Mr. "I have several essential starting skills, a free chainsword and one of the best Aptitudes" Outcast.

I agree with this! To the point where it's one of the thing I E-mailed the dev's about. Outcast should have Primitive weapons not "Chain" weapons. Just sayin...

Outcast feels.. so very odd to me. For multiple reasons.

Outcast feels like a case of the devs accidentaly writing themselves into a corner because of how overly specialised each background is. They'd really work better if they were general background concepts rather than specific Adeptus organisations. But then you get a bit of a clash with roles, I guess.

Outcast feels like a case of the devs accidentaly writing themselves into a corner because of how overly specialised each background is. They'd really work better if they were general background concepts rather than specific Adeptus organisations. But then you get a bit of a clash with roles, I guess.

Unless I'm mistaken (which I may be, I don't have the book with me), Outcast also gets the Social Aptitude.

Because being an Outcast in society obviously makes you adept at judging, weighing and exploiting social situations.

Obviously.

I don't know.. I kinda miss the old system. I like parts of this one, but in the end, it's not that much different from having an Origin Chart, with rows of options signifying various pre-play character events and backgrounds, and then pick a character archetype.

It is very open this way, and disassociates a character's role and position (fluff) from it's mechanical "rank" or "career". That's good. But that's nothing that couldn't have been done with Archetypes and a number of examples as to what would be appropriate to depict with each Archetype.

Interestingly, Only War seems to be taking the opposite direction - whereas I first considered the "Sergeant" Specialization to not necessarily be a Sergeant, but a leader in general, they then introduced Advanced Specializations such as the Commander, instead tying Fluff Role and Position with Mechanics, which.. always ends in oddities.

I would rather see a system of generalized Archetypes and then specific advanced ranks (á la Elite Advancements, costing experience) to depict specific character developments, titles, commissions, added expertise fields, etc, etc, with roleplaying (and mechanical) prerequisites.

But.. now I'm just ranting. I apologize.

Unless I'm mistaken (which I may be, I don't have the book with me), Outcast also gets the Social Aptitude.

Because being an Outcast in society obviously makes you adept at judging, weighing and exploiting social situations.

Obviously.

Yeah, I tried to mention this before, but I failed my roll to communicate clearly.

The Outcast seems to be a mix of every "non-mainstream" concept. Con-man and gunslinger, underhiver punk and burglar. All in one. Which makes no sense to me, especially given how narrow some of the other groupings are for comparison.

I for one would like the outcast broken into 2 or more packages, please.

The Outcast seems to be a mix of every "non-mainstream" concept. Con-man and gunslinger, underhiver punk and burglar. All in one. Which makes no sense to me, especially given how narrow some of the other groupings are for comparison.

Well, the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Imperial Guard backgrounds also represent a wide range of characters: from the Skitarii trooper through the Biologis butcher-surgeon to the average Engineseer and from the Cadian shock trooper through the Catachan jungle fighter to the DKOK grenadier.

The Outcast seems to be a mix of every "non-mainstream" concept. Con-man and gunslinger, underhiver punk and burglar. All in one. Which makes no sense to me, especially given how narrow some of the other groupings are for comparison.

Well, the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Imperial Guard backgrounds also represent a wide range of characters: from the Skitarii trooper through the Biologis butcher-surgeon to the average Engineseer and from the Cadian shock trooper through the Catachan jungle fighter to the DKOK grenadier.

Absolutely, but these groups tend to approach problems in largely the same way. Biologos and enginseer both needs to combine abstract knowledge with craftsman's like skill.

And while soldiers can approach problems in enough different ways that we can have a full game only about guardsmen, their basic approach is still similar. They are trained in the used of weapons, cover and tactics.

The con-man would presumably approach problems trying to find a social solution and trying to hide if weapons are drawn. But the gunslinger is a specialised for of warrior, really. Not the same approach at all.

Similarly I've met punks and while they can be fun to hang out with, the social apptitude is not what I'd initially think of. Etc.

The Outcast seems to be a mix of every "non-mainstream" concept. Con-man and gunslinger, underhiver punk and burglar. All in one. Which makes no sense to me, especially given how narrow some of the other groupings are for comparison.

Well, the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Imperial Guard backgrounds also represent a wide range of characters: from the Skitarii trooper through the Biologis butcher-surgeon to the average Engineseer and from the Cadian shock trooper through the Catachan jungle fighter to the DKOK grenadier.

Yes, but a Skitarii trooper and a Biologis butcher-chiurgeon have a lot more in common in terms of background rationale befitting the assigned mechanical characteristics than I feel a generalized Gunslinger, Conman or Malfian Noble would have.

The problem isn't so much what Outcast attempts to depict fluff-wise as much as it feels schizophrenic when doing so. It's a mish-mash that very well may or may not be fitting an "Outcast".

It's a very confusing background in terms of what it mechanically does compared to the way it's described. I find myself wondering what kind of character it's actually meant to be fitting for. My idea of an "Outcast" does not include the Social Aptitude, and while there are arguably "outcast" characters that would benefit from it, (as the aforementioned conman), that concept would exclude other aspects of the background as written and presented.

It's just.. odd. I think the generalizations went a bit too far in this case.

The con-man would presumably approach problems trying to find a social solution and trying to hide if weapons are drawn. But the gunslinger is a specialised for of warrior, really. Not the same approach at all.

They do share a common thing: they all play dirty. That's not a lesser thing than the AM's "we do tech" and the IG's "gunsgunsguns" theme.

The con-man would presumably approach problems trying to find a social solution and trying to hide if weapons are drawn. But the gunslinger is a specialised for of warrior, really. Not the same approach at all.

They do share a common thing: they all play dirty. That's not a lesser thing than the AM's "we do tech" and the IG's "gunsgunsguns" theme.

That's sort of what I'm trying to communicate:

They all play dirty, and that's all. That's so much wider than "we do tech" or "gunsgunsguns" that it really fails to be a theme.

Don't the Advanced Specialties of Only War, in some cases, completely change a PC's Aptitudes? Is it possible FFG'll do the same with future DH2 splats? Are we (the eventual owners of this new edition) entirely satisfied with chargen, backgrounds, roles, and Aptitudes as they are now, or does all of it need a lot more work?

I feel like DH2 is being rushed. Updates are coming shotgun-fast, and the next week's topic is being pushed through in seven days, and it seems (to me, at least) there are at most maybe twenty people participating in the beta (on this forum, anyway), which seems kinda sparse, and I'm really starting get a sense of dread...like DH2 is either gonna completely blow, or it'll just get sh!tcanned.

The con-man would presumably approach problems trying to find a social solution and trying to hide if weapons are drawn. But the gunslinger is a specialised for of warrior, really. Not the same approach at all.

They do share a common thing: they all play dirty. That's not a lesser thing than the AM's "we do tech" and the IG's "gunsgunsguns" theme.

The fact that they all "play dirty" is fine and is a question of fluff. But that as the only common base is an extremely wide number of character, and it could mean a Noble that wants to charm the pants off the servant girls just as much as an underhive guttersnipe that wants to steal your kidneys and piss on the wound.

One of these do well with the Social Aptitude, the other doesn't.

One of these do well with "Acrobatics or Sleight of Hand" Skills, the other doesn't.

"Playing dirty" is incredibly broad.

Don't the Advanced Specialties of Only War, in some cases, completely change a PC's Aptitudes? Is it possible FFG'll do the same with future DH2 splats? Are we (the eventual owners of this new edition) entirely satisfied with chargen, backgrounds, roles, and Aptitudes as they are now, or does all of it need a lot more work?

I feel like DH2 is being rushed. Updates are coming shotgun-fast, and the next week's topic is being pushed through in seven days, and it seems (to me, at least) there are at most maybe twenty people participating in the beta (on this forum, anyway), which seems kinda sparse, and I'm really starting get a sense of dread...like DH2 is either gonna completely blow, or it'll just get sh!tcanned.

My views are explained further up in the thread (and also in my own Unified Ruleset homebrew thread), so I'm not going to repeat them.

As much as I'm happy that they took a step back and went back to an iterative, evolutionary approach, I'm not all too happy with their choices. A lot of things seem lackluster, other things that have been suggested for years are forgotten (Weapon Training Talent issues, anyone?), and other things just seem to be knee-jerk reactions in an effort to homogenize the ruleset ("everything should be available to everyone at any time" as a design goal?), such as Psyniscience being available to everyone on very loose grounds not at all coherent with the actual functionality of psyniscience, or Untouchables being not only underwhelming, but nonsensically essentially "developing" a latent non-soul-ness (seriously, what the hell?).

That being said, some of the discussions are very rewarding in helping me define what I'd like to do myself, so I guess there's that. But I see very little incentive to move to DH2 myself.

I agree that the outcast seems to really be the "Everybody else" category rather than a true criminal (Which would be a "role" I think). Even DH1 I always felt that the Scum more represented a common civilian than anything else. I wouldn't even mind renaming the background as some gothicy version of Civilian since the actual "Rogue types" are covered by the Assassin and Desperado Roles.

As for regular people "becoming" Untouchables.. no. Just.. no. That's just.. no.

That is quite possible, just as there are 'latent psykers'.

The trait is lored to be in many cases genetic, but perhaps makes no claim that the gene be active from birth.

As for regular people "becoming" Untouchables.. no. Just.. no. That's just.. no.

That is quite possible, just as there are 'latent psykers'.

The trait is lored to be in many cases genetic, but perhaps makes no claim that the gene be active from birth.

A latent psyker is one that hasn't realized their potential, that hasn't "bloomed out" and activated that part of him that contains a less-than-normal connection to the warp, that part that supercharges him and uses his soul as a gateway between realspace and the Immaterium.

An untouchable is someone that literally has no soul . There's nothing that can be "latent". There's nothing that can "burst out". There's nothing that can trigger it, because being an untouchable isn't a matter of having something that you've yet to use, it is about not having something; lacking something you never, ever had!

The only way I can see someone "becoming" untouchable is through some truly arcane, deeply traumatic and irreversible event that permanently cuts you off from the warp, ripping your soul away from you, leaving the dreadful husk behind.

A latent psyker is one that hasn't realized their potential, that hasn't "bloomed out" and activated that part of him that contains a less-than-normal connection to the warp, that part that supercharges him and uses his soul as a gateway between realspace and the Immaterium.

An untouchable is someone that literally has no soul . There's nothing that can be "latent". There's nothing that can "burst out". There's nothing that can trigger it, because being an untouchable isn't a matter of having something that you've yet to use, it is about not having something; lacking something you never, ever had!

The only way I can see someone "becoming" untouchable is through some truly arcane, deeply traumatic and irreversible event that permanently cuts you off from the warp, ripping your soul away from you, leaving the dreadful husk behind.

You realize that 40k is largely a universe where such a 'spirit' can be lost can be lost, correct?

A latent psyker is one who through some means 'bloomed' out into the warp, where once that spirit looked as a tiny human flicker, brightened into the beacon in the immaterium that is a psyker.

And so a latent untouchable would be the exact opposite, who was born with perhaps a tenuous spirit that eventually caved way into the nulling pit that is a pariah.

Those two obviously discount things like xenotech alterations.

Having your bones replaced by nullrods is quite a sensible 40k thing to do.