definition of defense

By ranaldite, in WFRP Rules Questions

Posted at

What's the formal definition of defense for effects that need a numerical value?

Armor black dice: yes?

Shield black dice: yes?

Defense black dice from mutation: ?

Spells:?

Active defense blacks:?

Self guarded position blacks :?

Black dice from allies:?

Other:?

Is it all the blacks you're making the DM roll or some subset?

Posted at

What's the formal definition of defense for effects that need a numerical value?

Armor black dice: yes?

Shield black dice: yes?

Defense black dice from mutation: ?

Spells:?

Active defense blacks:?

Self guarded position blacks :?

Black dice from allies:?

Other:?

Is it all the blacks you're making the DM roll or some subset?

It is typically this:

A single purple die (base combat difficulty) plus:

  • Armor and shield defense: possibly some black defense dice
  • One black die for a defense: Block (if shield), OR Parry (weapon), OR Dodge (if agility 3+). Only one per defender and only once per recharge (usually every other round).
  • Yes, there may be other modifiers such as spells, assist from ally, guarded position (if you're doing nothing else), etc.

The GM adds them to his dice pool.

A typical roll is this:

Strength 3 goblin attacking with a basic Melee Strike against a gambler with no armor and a sword. The player decides to Parry (1 black die).

GM rolls: 3 blue dice for strength, 1 purple die, and 1 black (parry). The gambler is wearing no armor, so no other black dice.

In this case: The goblin is not trained in weapon skill, so no bonus yellow die.

Play around with the rolls a bit on the dice roller program: https://googledrive.com/host/0B27SCDR38xFuNE96TGV4S1Jjdlk/rollers/wfrp3e/#

Is this what you mean?

Edited by Emirikol
Posted at

What I need to know is if there's an effect that is based on the exact numerical value of a character's defense, how is that value defined and what is counted in there. There are potential future circumstances where I could theoretically throw something like 11 black dice at the gm for certain things - is all of that formally speaking "defense" or only a subset?

Posted at

There is no firm exact numerical value. So, when you read an ability that says 'Weapon Skill vs. Target Defense" , for example, that simply means the entire sub-set of modifiers. There is no formal number like a Skill vs. Skill check like Stealth vs. Observation opposed check or something like that.

From GM's Toolkit definitions in the half-assed and mostly-incomplete-for-actual-important-things-people-might-ever-have-to-look-up Glossary they put out:

"Defence. A target’s defence rating is how much harder he is to hit than normal. A defence bonus or rating is generally provided by armour, a special ability, or a magical effect. Each point of defence rating adds one misfortune die to dice pools targeting the character with an attack."

From the Player's Guide p81:

"A variety of Active Defence or other reactions such as Dodge or Parry may be played as a reaction to an attack. These abilities commonly add misfortune dice to the dice pool, making the attack less likely to succeed or, if it succeeds, reducing the quality of the success. If the target of the attack has access to such abilities, he should trigger them at this point, before the dice pool is rolled. There is no limit to the number of reactions that can be played in response to a
given attack, except that each effect can only be triggered once."

So, potentially, you could be an Ironbreaker (we call them Iron brokens ), with Gromril (DR2), Shield (DR 1), and use your Block (DR1), Dodge (DR1) and Parry (DR1) in the same round: That would total 6 black defense dice if they were all used against ONE attack. The following incoming attacks or following round, you wouldn't have any active defenses available (because they'd be recharging), but it is of little consequence because of the dwarf ironbroken's total damage soak value would be at least 9 or 10.

Did you have some other theoretical dice you'd add in?

jh

Posted at

Yep. So (in one theoretical build of my character 5-8 advances down the line), I could have

1 from robes

3 from shield

1 from the mutation

2 from block

1 from dodge

2 from guarded position (the character is an obligatory noncombatant)

Now, there's a shield related action that is in one of my GM's binders that I think lets you use defense as soak in some contexts (it has the ancestor trait and requires resilience trained). It has a pretty high recharge but our combats don't last very long. If all the above count as defense that ends up as... a lot of soak. 13 counting toughness?. But there seems like there might be a formal difference between extra black dice and defense - I'm just wondering. Do penalty dice from darkness count as defense? Etc.

Posted at

⎕⎕⎕⎕ for darkness, but you would logically suffer penalty to active defenses. Extra black dice here all count as defense, except darkness- thats just a penalty to attack.

Which career are you playing and which mutation are you afflicted with?

Here's my assessment:
Constant Defense:
⎕ Robes
⎕ Shield (tower shield is not something you can walk around with; it is a military battlefield improvement)
⎕ Mutation (?)
⎕ Guarded position every round in lieu of any other action or that Shield action from omens of war you're talking about

Recharge Defenses (Recharge 2..only good vs ONE attack each..not a full-round bonus)
⎕ Block (shield equipped), and +⎕ if Resilience Trained
⎕ Dodge and +⎕ if Coordination Trained

Use a Main Gauche in your Weapon Hand for Parry (Recharge 2..only good vs ONE attack each..not a full-round bonus)
⎕ Parry , +⎕Weapon Skill trained, +⎕ Defensive (main gauche)

Got to get you some better armor :)

..

Edited by Emirikol
Posted at

I have seen the wood elf wardancer get alot of defensive dice via their charging action cards. Not sure what their active defence card is called, but its very good.

Posted at

not a tower shield. an (eventually) runed superior quality buckler. there are various in-character and str 2 reasons why armor is not an option. but anyway this all depends on my gm. Not really looking for character optimization, just a definition of terms.

Posted at

Oh yea, good thinking on the runed buckler.

\

The main term definition you'll have to deal with is "ignores armor soak." There aren't many other circumstances that matter.

jh

Edited by Emirikol
Posted at

What's the formal definition of defense for effects that need a numerical value?

...*snip*...

Is it all the blacks you're making the DM roll or some subset?

It's a subset. Your defence rating contributes black dice to incoming attacks, but not all black dice in the attack count as (or originate from) your defence rating. Defence rating generates misfortune dice, not the other way around. Armour and shields usually contribute defence rating, most (but not all) other things usually just add black dice instead. The phrasing of the card or ability is critical to determining if it's just +1 misfortune die or +1 Defence (which then generates a misfortune die if and only if the attack card says "vs Target Defence").

In most cases they are functionally identical, but there are a few corner case interactions where the distinction matters. The action card you're asking about is one of those corner cases.

I'm pretty sure Ranaldite here is inquiring about "Armour Expertise". It is an action card that reads:

Effect: When you are hit by a Melee Attack or Ranged Attack, you may add 6 recharge tokens to this card to turn and catch the blow on your armour and shield. Add your Defence value to your Soak value against this attack.

If Ranaldite's PC were wearing cloth (Defence 0, Soak 1) and carrying a buckler (Defence 1, Soak 0) her total Defence rating would be 1. If those were the only factors involved, using "Armour Expertise" would add 1 to her soak.

Now let's say Ranaldite's PC has the mutation "Feathers" (because the character we're almost certainly talking about actually does). "Feathers" says:

"Colourful feathers sprout from your skin, providing +1 Defence."

So now "Armour Expertise" adds +2 to her soak (including the 1 from the buckler), because the mutation specifically mentions that it grants Defence (not just misfortune dice).

If the fight was taking place in darkness, during a rainstorm, and the Ranaldite where on the high ground and using Guarded Position, then there might be half a dozen additional black dice in the attack pool... but her actual Defence rating would still only be a 2 (1 from the buckler, 1 from the feathers), and thus Armour Expertise would only add +2 soak.

Answers to Ranaldite's laundry list of black dice and which ones count as Defence:

  • Armor black dice: Yes
  • Shield black dice: Yes
  • Defense black dice from mutation: Yes, in the case of the specific mutation card mentioned.
  • Spells: Depends on the exact phrasing of the spell card.
  • Active defense blacks: Probably not, because of how they are phrased. It seems a little odd, because they're called "active defence" cards, but technically they don't mention modifying your defence rating. The most likely reason why they are phrased the way they are is because of the Improved versions, which add a purple die instead of a black.
  • Self guarded position blacks : No.
  • Black dice from allies: Depends on the phrasing of the ability the ally is using, but in most cases no. If you mean "from allies using Guarded Position" the answer is no.
  • Other: Depends on the wording.

So "Armour Expertise" will generate roughly 1 to 3 points of bonus soak for most characters and situations (and 2 for our friend the Ranaldite given her current gear). That makes it roughly balanced with other soak-boosting powers that cost 1 XP, such as the "Roll With It" Tactic Talent or the "Shrug It Off" Action (both of which soak 2 damage each). It may be slightly better or worse than those cards for certain builds, but it's not some sort of crazy combo piece that's going to suddenly soak an arbitrarily large amount of damage when the stars are just right.

Edited by r_b_bergstrom