Did a playtest today with a new player, who raised an interesting question... How many tries do you get on a skill test? If failure doesn't actually change the circumstances of the encounter and you know you've failed, is there any reason not to keep trying, round after round, until you succeed?

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

What kind of skill test is the player attempting?

If at first you don't succeed try again and again and again.

If something interesting isn't happening after the first try for either failure or success, you shouldn't be rolling in the first place. Seriously, if you need the player to succeed at the task, let them do it at a cost. If you don't want them trying over and over, have something happens that stops them from re-attempting. Otherwise, don't make the roll.

In this specific instance, the character was attempting to use the psychic power Telepathic Link, fettered, to read the mind of a subject being interrogated. He kept failing the Focus Power test but kept trying the following round. There really didn't seem to be any game mechanics reason to prevent the constant re-rolls. It occurred to me, however, that there was no practical difference between this and a character making repeated Common Lore tests to remember a fact or repeated Logic tests to figure out a puzzle. There is no price for failing, beyond it taking more time to figure out the answer.

Well, some things you can reliably make multiple attempts at, and others may require an alteration of circumstances.

One of the things a GM should do is consider for each test "what actually happens in the world when the player fails".

So for Common Lore, a failed test to 'remember' may be considered as the character never having known in the first place. In this case he could only try again with access to some method of researching it.

For Security, the GM could consider that a failure triggers an alarm, or that the character doesn't have the appropriate tools (but maybe knows what they would be and how to get them), or even simply that the character just needs to take another hour at it (with stuff happening in the background, plots moving, etc., during that hour.)

So for the case of a failure at Telepathic Link, it's up to the GM to decide why the character failed: inability to draw energy from the immaterium for this could be some becalming of the warp around, or some mental trouble of the character, perhaps curable by some time in meditation. You could say that the interrogation target is simply unreadable at the psyker's skill, or rule that since he has all the time in the world to interrogate him he doesn't even need to roll at all (he'll eventually manifest the power).

Again, if there is nothing preventing the player from re-attempting something over and over, there shouldn't be a roll in the first place. It just happens. If you want to account for psychic phenomena possiblly happening, either tell him it will work but he has to roll on the table, or let him succeed and roll a single d10 and have him roll for phenomena if he rolls a 9.

If the only price for failing is how long it will take, then just take the failed roll, increase the time by an amount (e.g. 1 round > 1 minute > one hour > one day, or whatever you think is appropriate) based on degrees of failure, and declare the action done.

The rules specifically tell you to not roll dice unless there are interesting consequences for failure and success. This is GOOD advice and it will make you and your players enjoy the system a lot more. A failed roll does not always have to mean a failed action. Maybe it just means you succeed but at a cost. Name the cost to your player and see if he accepts it. You are the devil, and your players are all Faust. A good GM is not the opposing side. A good GM is the devil in the players' ears telling them what great rewards and power await them if only they would turn on that box with the strange carvings... You should always look at a failed roll as a chance to bargain with your players. Even in combat, if they fail a roll, offer them a bargain, such as hitting the shot but leaving cover, or doing reduced damage, or their gun jamming.

Here's the thing. If you make a player roll the dice to do something, they should be rolling once. Having them do it again and again multiple times is wasting time you could be using to have more interesting things happen. Physically rolling dice is the least exciting part of the game. The most exciting part is what happens immediately afterward/the expectation of what might happen. Focus on having that happen more often than rolling dice.

Here's the thing. If you make a player roll the dice to do something, they should be rolling once.

While there is some merit to Extended Tests, and the ability to 'recover' from a failure with a later successful test, it can tend to be up to the GM to decide whether or not the test is required and specifically what happens on success or failure.

In the case of "I'd like to use my horrible warp witchery to interrogate him", unless there's something preventing that (psy-dampers, etc.) the power manifestation roll can probably be foregone in favor of skipping to the willpower/intelligence testing.

In this specific instance, the character was attempting to use the psychic power Telepathic Link, fettered, to read the mind of a subject being interrogated. He kept failing the Focus Power test but kept trying the following round. There really didn't seem to be any game mechanics reason to prevent the constant re-rolls. It occurred to me, however, that there was no practical difference between this and a character making repeated Common Lore tests to remember a fact or repeated Logic tests to figure out a puzzle. There is no price for failing, beyond it taking more time to figure out the answer.

In the case of Skills, there is a rules section on page 66 about re-tries. On the other hand, there is only a handful of skills that suffer from this. Most of them represent a momentary action (like dodging a shot, spotting a fleeing phenomena, deceiving someone) and thus they can't be reattempted in a reasonable fashion (you can't dodge a shot twice ifyouknowwhatImean ).

Psychic Powers on the other hand are beyond salvation. You can just spam the hell out of them until they succeed. But I think we already talked about this in my playtesting topic, didn't we ?

This isn't really a new issue, and it was present in the previous systems too.

There should be some written guidelines on the subject, but as always, there's limited space, I guess.

That being said, allow rolls as long as it makes sense and as long as the outcome(s) may be interesting.

Usually, at some point, my GMs either say that I just can't work it out, or that I've broken something, in these cases. To me, that makes sense, and if you allow infinite rolls, why even roll?

In this specific instance, the character was attempting to use the psychic power Telepathic Link, fettered, to read the mind of a subject being interrogated. He kept failing the Focus Power test but kept trying the following round. There really didn't seem to be any game mechanics reason to prevent the constant re-rolls. It occurred to me, however, that there was no practical difference between this and a character making repeated Common Lore tests to remember a fact or repeated Logic tests to figure out a puzzle. There is no price for failing, beyond it taking more time to figure out the answer.

Likewise, for Lore tests, if you fail the roll, you don't know whatever you tried to know something about, or maybe it escapes you at the moment. Come back and try again later, or start consulting the library.

Logic tests? You can't figure it out. Dead stop, it's too hard for you, you can't figure out the algorithm or how the puzzle is supposed to be solved, or you don't understand what rules dictate how it's supposed to be solved, you fail to see the system.

Consider what kind of tests might be appropriate. If they fail at first, they might have to come back later, or maybe Extended Skill Tests are appropriate as they take to the table and try to work it out, maybe they can find out a partial solution based on a row of different checks over and extended time period?

On top of the good points already made, it's worth noting that while the current beta address this to a certain extent, the original beta went further and actually had a retry entry for each skill with any explanation of how to handle it.

Most things, as people pointed out here, were one try whereas others had failure conditions or time effects (such as each retry took double the time of the previous go, so after a few tries it became impractical to keep going). It would be nice to have this level of detail back in the current version.

In this case, I would say that the subject of the interrogation is simply too hard if he can't do it on the first try, or that there would be a cooldown period before he could try again, or that if he fails spectacularly, maybe even harms the subject as he's rummaging through his brain.

Sadly, Psychic Powers simply ignore all these criteria. Their limiting factor is supposed to be the Psychic Phenomena but between the Fettered power level and the rather 'bleh'-ish phenomena table, it is just as limiting as a gun jam for a sniper rifle.

For Telepathic Link you neither have a cooldown period (You can use it in every 6th second!) nor you can do any harm because you have to learn a whole different psychic power (Psychic Scream) to be that harsh with someone's mind.

In this case, I would say that the subject of the interrogation is simply too hard if he can't do it on the first try, or that there would be a cooldown period before he could try again, or that if he fails spectacularly, maybe even harms the subject as he's rummaging through his brain.

Sadly, Psychic Powers simply ignore all these criteria. Their limiting factor is supposed to be the Psychic Phenomena but between the Fettered power level and the rather 'bleh'-ish phenomena table, it is just as limiting as a gun jam for a sniper rifle.

For Telepathic Link you neither have a cooldown period (You can use it in every 6th second!) nor you can do any harm because you have to learn a whole different psychic power (Psychic Scream) to be that harsh with someone's mind.

Obviously what I meant wasn't to state that which is RAW, but merely explain how I would narrate it in relation to the topic. I apologize for any confusion on your part.

Obviously what I meant wasn't to state that which is RAW, but merely explain how I would narrate it in relation to the topic. I apologize for any confusion on your part.

Oh, sorry for the misunderstanding. But it still doesn't really solve the problem: if the player wants to endlessly spam Telepathic Link, he can always point at the rulebook and do it.

In this case, I would say that the subject of the interrogation is simply too hard if he can't do it on the first try, or that there would be a cooldown period before he could try again, or that if he fails spectacularly, maybe even harms the subject as he's rummaging through his brain.

Sadly, Psychic Powers simply ignore all these criteria. Their limiting factor is supposed to be the Psychic Phenomena but between the Fettered power level and the rather 'bleh'-ish phenomena table, it is just as limiting as a gun jam for a sniper rifle.

For Telepathic Link you neither have a cooldown period (You can use it in every 6th second!) nor you can do any harm because you have to learn a whole different psychic power (Psychic Scream) to be that harsh with someone's mind.

As someone said, If they've ll the time in the world for it I won't make them even roll for something that they are supposed to be able to do. Or I'll make them roll once and apply a twist (Oh, you broke the lock!) if they get a VERY BAD roll. If they don't I'd describe how they stay there for hours doing ****, and maybe share out some fatigue points.

In the case of the psychic power, I'd probably say he needs a unfettered level to break that mind, or simply that the psy-guy stays there ten or twelve hours and he gets completely exhausted.

In the case of the psychic power, I'd probably say he needs a unfettered level to break that mind, or simply that the psy-guy stays there ten or twelve hours and he gets completely exhausted.

You can play the unfettered card with an Eldar Farseer or a veteran Inquisitor... But with Billy the dock worker? That would be a path straight down to Ridicule Lane .

And in 10 hours, the psyker can attempt 6000 (!!!!) Telepathic Links. If the player fails all 6000 opposed Willpower tests then hell he deserves that exhaustion !

At least in the case of Skills, you (as the GM) have basis with limiting re-tries. If you want to limit psychic power re-tries then welcome in Houserule Land, hope you will enjoy your stay.

Obviously what I meant wasn't to state that which is RAW, but merely explain how I would narrate it in relation to the topic. I apologize for any confusion on your part.

Oh, sorry for the misunderstanding. But it still doesn't really solve the problem: if the player wants to endlessly spam Telepathic Link, he can always point at the rulebook and do it.

Hahahahaha, no.

The GM exists to mediate, and decides when or why a player is to make a roll. What I presented was merely a narrative rationale as to why it might not be possible to spam Telepathic Link, no matter what the rulebook says.

I wouldn't allow him to Telepathically Link with vegetables, either.

Players.. pointing at rulebooks. Hah! What will they think of next...

The GM exists to mediate, and decides when or why a player is to make a roll. What I presented was merely a narrative rationale as to why it might not be possible to spam Telepathic Link, no matter what the rulebook says.

Yeah, screw the rulebook, who needs that big, expensive heap of paper to play anyway ?

The GM exists to mediate, and decides when or why a player is to make a roll. What I presented was merely a narrative rationale as to why it might not be possible to spam Telepathic Link, no matter what the rulebook says.

Yeah, screw the rulebook, who needs that big, expensive heap of paper to play anyway ?

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that the rulebook should be thrown away - do you want some help with that strawman you're building?

I advise you to read up on the GM section. If you play roleplaying games like a game of Chess, you're going to have a bad time.

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that the rulebook should be thrown away - do you want some help with that strawman you're building?

I advise you to read up on the GM section. If you play roleplaying games like a game of Chess, you're going to have a bad time.

Look, all I'm saying is that not everyone is an elite-level GM and not all players are super-cool with all the decisions their GMs make. What if your players say that they disagree with your interpretation of the spammable psychic powers? After the interrogation, the Acolytes run into a combat and the psyker uses Telepathic Link six times in six consequent turns - how will you retain consistency as the GM?

Maybe it is not a problem for you, because you are a good GM and your players are all cool guys, but saying that this isn't a problem because of this is a pretty big hyperbole IMHO.

The GM exists to mediate, and decides when or why a player is to make a roll. What I presented was merely a narrative rationale as to why it might not be possible to spam Telepathic Link, no matter what the rulebook says.

Yeah, screw the rulebook, who needs that big, expensive heap of paper to play anyway ?

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that the rulebook should be thrown away - do you want some help with that strawman you're building?

I advise you to read up on the GM section. If you play roleplaying games like a game of Chess, you're going to have a bad time.

In a shocking turn of a events, I have to say that Fgsdfg is right on this one. Every game has weird quirks that if a player figures out allows for some weird, non-sensical things to happen and if your game isn't about exploring those then the GM needs to step in and say, "I don't give a **** what the rulebook says, no, you can't cast Telekinetic Link 6,000 times." It's part of GMing. The rulebook for a game is not gospel (in particular anything written by FFG).

The GM exists to mediate, and decides when or why a player is to make a roll. What I presented was merely a narrative rationale as to why it might not be possible to spam Telepathic Link, no matter what the rulebook says.

Yeah, screw the rulebook, who needs that big, expensive heap of paper to play anyway ?

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that the rulebook should be thrown away - do you want some help with that strawman you're building?

I advise you to read up on the GM section. If you play roleplaying games like a game of Chess, you're going to have a bad time.

In a shocking turn of a events, I have to say that Fgsdfg is right on this one. Every game has weird quirks that if a player figures out allows for some weird, non-sensical things to happen and if your game isn't about exploring those then the GM needs to step in and say, "I don't give a **** what the rulebook says, no, you can't cast Telekinetic Link 6,000 times." It's part of GMing. The rulebook for a game is not gospel (in particular anything written by FFG).

Of course, since we're in the process of writing said rulebook, I thought this might be a place to slip in a little guidance to help GMs deal with instances like this... (faceplam)

I don't think I've ever read a single RPG that didn't open with explaining the hallowed Rule Zero, anyway.

I'm not sure why there is this much of a discussion about Telepathic Link's focus power test.

If you're in a standard non-combat (read: less stressful) situation, it's usually assumed that you can "take 20" (if you're familiar with DnD)-- i.e. you automatically succeed to manifest the power.

Then you resolve the mindreading with some other opposed test.

If it's a combat situation, you can spam whatever power you like.

(Of course if it isn't helping you not die in that combat, you might want to reconsider your actions.)

This may be discussed in the section on Narrative Time versus Combat Time, but GMs may elect to handle things differently (or you know, discuss it with their players). If your group wants to require focus power tests for such events, you'll probably wish to decide what happens if you fail. As may have been mentioned: If you're requiring a roll, you should make it do something. If the rules say he can try again every 5 seconds, you may want to just deem it successful if time isn't critical. Or you can say, like other skill tests, that a failure to manifest means the psyker's too addled to do it for this interrogation.

That said, if there's this much dispute in playtests, there should probably be a small box that says "GMs should decide what happens in the world when a player fails, or if the player even needs to roll for some things in less critical situations."

If you're in a standard non-combat (read: less stressful) situation, it's usually assumed that you can "take 20" (if you're familiar with DnD)-- i.e. you automatically succeed to manifest the power.

First, explain to me where you see that assumption in the rules because I haven't seen it.

Second, if you only roll during combat then there are a lot of skills, and a few powers, you will never roll them in combat. I don't believe the intention is that those succeed automatically.