... Night's Watch will be a more vulnerable trait than Ally .

Discuss.

Because of Ygritte?

I can't really think of anything other than Ygritte as being what makes Night's Watch vulnerable. The Traitorous Crow is another Night's Watch hate card, but that will almost never see play outside of a dedicated Night's Watch deck.

I was thinking that Neutral characters will be her most frequent target.

Because of Ygritte, who will actually be played, as opposed to the (very little viable) Ally-hate out there that rarely ever is.

(The ulterior motive of the thread is to propose that, in practice, Ally isn't much of a detriment to a character. The comparison to Night's Watch through Ygritte was really just to stir the pot, not to make a true comparison - because there are far too many Night's Watch love effects out there to really make an apples-to-apples comparison of the traits.)

I still think ally makes me think thrice. At least in a T1 environment.

But why , Dennis? What are you expecting to see that makes "Ally" such a questionable choice? And how often do you actually see it? And do you really think thrice on cards like Castellan of the Rock, Hellholt Engineer, or Pyat Pree based on "Ally"???

Or, taken from the other side, how much specific Ally hate makes your own T1 decks? Did Dissension make the cut, especially now that the Refugees are restricted? Shadow-Varys? (I expect Oakheart to make Martell and Lanni decks, sure, but more as a 3-cost Renown character with a potential secondary benefit.)

+1 ktom

The only time in recent memory I've been annoyed by a negative keyword was Jorah discarding my Fleet from Lys...

On the other hand, I've seen House Divided *way* more than any ally hate.

Then again, I don't play in a T1 environment, so.

Varys and Arys are still very prevalent, and since Targ continues to be strong, Jorah is also popular in that house. I will never play an Ally that costs more than 3, and rarely more than cost 2, due to the loss of tempo from such cards.

Varys and Arys are still very prevalent, and since Targ continues to be strong, Jorah is also popular in that house. I will never play an Ally that costs more than 3, and rarely more than cost 2, due to the loss of tempo from such cards.

This. Sure you may not see ally hate in every game, but somewhere during a tournament, once the cream rises, you will, most likely with your tourney life on the line. My main point is, when there are so many great non-ally options, why would anyone opt for an ally when they don't have to, it just adds a risk for no reason where there doesn't need to be any.

Gotta love a good teaser topic.

Varys and Arys are still very prevalent, and since Targ continues to be strong, Jorah is also popular in that house. I will never play an Ally that costs more than 3, and rarely more than cost 2, due to the loss of tempo from such cards.

This. Sure you may not see ally hate in every game, but somewhere during a tournament, once the cream rises, you will, most likely with your tourney life on the line. My main point is, when there are so many great non-ally options, why would anyone opt for an ally when they don't have to , it just adds a risk for no reason where there doesn't need to be any.

I certainly agree with this. All things being equal between two characters that are largely interchangeable in your deck, you go with the non-Ally. What I'm trying to figure out, though, is why people seem to cite about "Ally" as a primary reason not to play various cards when, in practice, it is really more of a third tie-breaker. When ally characters are not interchangeable in various decks, people don't even seem to think twice about it.

But then, I think the choice to put Ally-hate into a deck is at a similar decision-making level. I don't think people are grabbing Arys, Varys, or even Jorah early in the deck-building process thinking "if I don't have them, I'm vulnerable to Ally characters." I think for most people, they grab those characters when they are filling out the deck near the end of the process and looking for utility characters. I think their inclusion tends to be more of a "never hurts to have Ally-hate," not "no deck is incomplete without Ally hate."

Which brings me back to the "teaser" in the topic. Because I think "Ally-hate" is included in decks more as a "never hurts" utility choice than as a toolbox or specific choice, I think Ygritte will start taking the place a lot of those "anti-Ally" characters because her ability works against a broader section of characters - and "take control" effects tend to inspire a deeper "loss of tempo" than discard effects.

So, as a result, does "neutral" or Night's Watch become something you "think thrice" about before including - the way you do for Ally ? And what happens if the choice comes down to a neutral or an in-House Ally ?

Definitely think twice about including neutral cards now, which is why I think ygritte will be largely irrelevant. Several of us discussed Black Friday after the tourney and experienced the same phenomena, having ygritte stuck in our hands several times all day because the opponent had no neutrals on board. It's easier to not include neutrals than it is to not include ally's.

Ally feels vulnerable because of Oakheart, Dissension, Mormont, but especially because of Varys.

Varys sees play in many decks. I shy away from allies often for that reason more than any other. Varys is a great card that is worthy as a 1x in almost any control deck. He sees a lot of play.

I think its more that in a tourney it increases the chance that someone will have a deck that just ruins your day due to having allies, non unique cards, attachments, etc.

And all it takes is that random deck being your first match to boot you out of the top cut.

But yeah, the card would have to be amazing and good immediately before I even consider a non-neutral, non-unique character under strength 3, let alone an ally.

I don't run any events because there are so many cards that cancel them. It's just too unreliable.

My whole deck is allies! ALLY OVERLOAD!!! BOW DOWN TO YOUR STALWART ALLY MASTERS!!!!

My whole deck is allies! ALLY OVERLOAD!!! BOW DOWN TO YOUR STALWART ALLY MASTERS!!!!

What I'm seeing in this thread is that people try to steer away from Ally characters because there are as many as 3 characters in the environment, each able to "target kill/discard" a single Ally, that they might see. No more than 2 in a deck, probably, and rarely more than one hits play in a game.

So it sounds like mdc's "ALLY OVERLOAD!!!" can be achieved with, oh, roughly 2 characters?

Is a similar thing happening with neutrals, even though "NEUTRAL OVERLOAD!!!" over Ygritte can be achieved with 2 characters as well?

Actually I'm just being a dcdennis... err troll. I'm just being a troll.

I mostly agree with you about ally hate. I consider it when I have two cards, but it's not like I outright avoid allies. I just tend towards non-allies when there are similar cards. As far as ally overload goes, it's kind of hilarious how little bad stuff happens to my allies even when I have 4 or 5 of them on the board.

I DON'T play allies if they're over 3 cost, though. I even have to heavily consider 3 cost and 2 cost allies, though 2 cost is far more likely to make the cut. 4 cost allies are right out. 3 cost allies are 50/50. So while Ally avoidance isn't a thing for me, I think you would be hard-pressed to find people willing to drop 3+ gold on a card that could be discarded by pure luck.

It takes a lot of skill for me to afford Ser Arys Oakheart Matt.

Actually I'm just being a dcdennis... err troll. I'm just being a troll.

Oh, I knew that. I just have fun launching an actual point off of a troll.

@bomb - as much or more skill compared to Hand's Judgement/Paper Shield?

Yet I challenge you to find a T1 deck without events....

It's more what Danigral says. Any ally isn't going to be automatically discarded as soon as it hits the table. Every ally is vulnerable to be discarded at any point by another character coming into play. The change in tempo is too much to risk on a character of 3 gold or more, arguably even 2 gold or higher. Ygritte very well may cause people to significantly question neutral characters at cost 3 or higher. Ironically, many people will still play a neutral ally (Varys).

It's more what Danigral says. Any ally isn't going to be automatically discarded as soon as it hits the table. Every ally is vulnerable to be discarded at any point by another character coming into play. The change in tempo is too much to risk on a character of 3 gold or more, arguably even 2 gold or higher. Ygritte very well may cause people to significantly question neutral characters at cost 3 or higher. Ironically, many people will still play a neutral ally (Varys).

It feels pretty crappy when you pull Varys out to toss away an opponent's Ally only to have the opponent bring out his copy of Varys to toss yours away.

While I do consider the Ally trait to be dangerous, it has never really stopped me from using high-cost Allies. The best example I can think of off the top of my head is LotR Bronn; his ability is just too good for me not to put him in decks. Yea, he can be Stealthed and hit by the little bit of Ally hate thats out there, but he can also just stand there and protect me against challenges then get me an unopposed in whatever challenge type my opponent has no Deadly defenders. As one of only two Deadly tri-cons in the game (that I am aware of, there might be more but I can only think of two) I think he's worth the four gold. Ygritte is a bit different since your opponent gets control of the Character, and even though people will only be running one per deck, I definitely will reconsider my N guys.