I sat down this morning to write up a couple of characters, testing out the latest update changes. My Hive World Outcast Warrior spent 600 (!) of his starting exp on Weapon Training (Low Tech) and Weapon Training (Heavy). Seriously, 2/3 of his starting experience was spent on two Weapon Trainings... one of which involves being able to use a knife. This is ridiculous.

IMO, all Acolytes should start with Weapon Training (Low Tech, Las and Solid Projectile). In this way, they all start with the ability to use the most common weapons of the Imperium... which only makes sense of agents of the secret police of a universally militarized culture.

Under this model, characters would have to pay experience points for access to the more powerful "special" weapons... like bolters and chainswords, plasma guns and power fists. This puts a mechanical limitation on those weapons beyond just getting ahold of them and is why I prefer this model to simply doing away with Weapon Training altogether.

How about just scrapping those talents altogether? They offer nothing and serve only (as you've experienced) and XP tax. Weapon training feats talents are a holdover from D&D and I'd like to think game design has advanced past them.

Plus, at least in DnD they serve a purpose. You have to be fairly careful with feat selection in DnD because of how few you can actually get in the course of a game. Whereas in DH you can get as many as you have XP.

I like the talents as a way to slow down progression to the mighty weapons.

I'd rather differ Low-Tech ranged from Melee (as Low-Tech ranged is rather exotic than melee) and have a look over the starting talents --> give Low-Tech (melee) to most backgrounds or grant this one talent for free in general.

In the time it takes to climb to the Influence levels to get the mighty weapons, you'll likely have had more than enough time to plan ahead and grab the proficiency.

How about just scrapping those talents altogether? They offer nothing and serve only (as you've experienced) and XP tax. Weapon training feats talents are a holdover from D&D and I'd like to think game design has advanced past them.

In general I agree but, as I said, they can be a control on more powerful weapons. If you want a plasma gun, you need to invest 300 exp in Weapon Training (Plasma). That seems a worthwhile use for the talent to me.

My suggestion should be well-known by now; they need to be split up between Type and Class, and "Low-Tech" needs to be scrapped. It's hilariously broken that you can somehow use a chainsword but not a dagger, with the right (or wrong, I guess) combination of talents.

Scrapping the system entirely would be ridiculous and tantamount to throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The idea that any Guardsman knows how to use a Plasma-weapon or all Acolytes know how to use a Rocket Launcher is preposterous.

What about Rogue Traders "Universal" classes ?

I'm looking at it less from the position of "Every acolyte knows how to use every weapon" and more from the position of "What do these talents actually add to gameplay? Why charge a player XP in order to use their preferred weapon?" The 'realism' lost in a system where all of the player characters are experts at using every weapon is more than made up for by allowing them to spend that XP on more interesting skills and talents, in my opinion.

What about Rogue Traders "Universal" classes ?

Personally, I like the weapon-type trainings over the universals from Rogue Trader because it feels similar to the tabletop to me. Every guardsman has a lasgun but the guardsman with a plasma gun pays points for his special weapon. I know the reasoning behind it is completely different but at the same time it isn't. I like the notion that you have to pay to get access to the big guns.

Your millage may vary.

I also like the Weapon Training talents but would prefer that everyone starts with Low Tech. Having Weapon Training talents serves to provide diversity and uniqueness within the group.

How does it? Everyone's definitely going to get the talents for the weapon they plan to use, anyway. It does very little to sway people's preferences, beyond the first handful of sessions.

If only one guy in the group has "Plasma" and they come across a bad guy with a plasma pistol, he'll use it while everyone can't. Sure, it's not something that makes a huge difference but it does cause some excitement for the player that got his hands on one, especially after a hard fought battle.

What about Rogue Traders "Universal" classes ?

The existence of the "Universal" talent-group was likely created to reduce bookkeeping, at the expense of consistency, and only served the highlight the issues with the system as it was. Out of all the ways they've tinkered with the system in this regard, Rogue Trader had the worst iteration.

Which doesn't say much, looking at Only War.

I'm looking at it less from the position of "Every acolyte knows how to use every weapon" and more from the position of "What do these talents actually add to gameplay? Why charge a player XP in order to use their preferred weapon?" The 'realism' lost in a system where all of the player characters are experts at using every weapon is more than made up for by allowing them to spend that XP on more interesting skills and talents, in my opinion.

It's not a matter of "realism", it's a matter of internal consistency and character development. Your capability to use the preferred weapon of your character is as much a part of you as your ability to sneak past a group of guards or your propensity of violence and smashing the skulls of two persons at once.

Edit: My suggestions, reposted:

On weapon talents & proficiencies:

The way Weapon Training works in Only War doesn't sit well with me. But at the same time, neither does the older systems. No matter what, I think there is something lacking.

I was thinking I'd break weapons up into CLASS and TYPE, with two different talents. Weapon Proficiency (<class>) trains you in Class, while Weapon Training (<type>) trains you in Type.

Using a weapon for which you have neither Class nor Type would incur a -40 penalty, while having training in either Class or Type would incur a -20. Having training in both would mean no inherent penalty at all.

The "Arms Master"-talent would reduce the penalty by 20, to a maximum of -10 (So if you have Type but not Class, the penalty would be -10; If you have neither Class nor Type, it would be -20 instead of -40).

Some weapons would have no Type, while some may have no Class; this includes, for example, many Exotic Weapons that operate so differently that the only way you can realistically use them is with the Exotic Weapons Operation talent.

Classes would be Melee, Thrown, Basic, Pistol and Heavy.

ADDENDUM: Add "Unarmed" to Classes, based on Pugilist/Unarmed Warrior discussion here . /ADDENDUM EDIT: Scratch that. This is better achieved with a Special Quality. /EDIT

Types would be Bolt, Chain, Spray, Las, Launcher, Melta, Power, Shock, and Solid Projectile.

Some (Exotic) weapons would have Unique Type, corresponding to the general kind of exotic weapon it is. For example, weapons with the Eldar Type would all be usable by someone with the Exotic Weapons Operation (Eldar) talent. All Gauss Types with the Exotic Weapons Operation (Gauss). This is, of course, provided that they also can use that Class. In many cases, a Pistol is still a Pistol and a Heavy weapon is still Heavy.

What this system specifically allows is diversification of concepts, but what it does primarily for me is that it removes the sillyness of someone being able to use a Power Sword, but not a Feudal Sword. Or a Shock-Whip, but not a Grox-Whip.

This is because while you would need Weapon Proficiency (Melee) AND Weapon Training (Power) to use a Power Sword properly, a regular Feudal Sworld would only be Class: Melee, but with Type: None.

Weapon Proficiency (Class) would be categorized as a Tier 1 talent with the General and Offense OR Defence OR Finesse Aptitudes.

Weapons Training (Type) would be classified as a Tier 1 talent with the General and Finesse Aptitudes (just like basic Only War).

Sound good?

What about Rogue Traders "Universal" classes ?

Terrible. If you want to hand out blanket proficiencies, why do you have proficiencies at all? And if you do hand them out, how come they specifically don't include Flame and Primitive (Low-Tech)?

The existence of the "Universal" talent-group was likely created to reduce bookkeeping, at the expense of consistency, and only served the highlight the issues with the system as it was. Out of all the ways they've tinkered with the system in this regard, Rogue Trader had the worst iteration.

Which doesn't say much, looking at Only War.

I'm looking at it less from the position of "Every acolyte knows how to use every weapon" and more from the position of "What do these talents actually add to gameplay? Why charge a player XP in order to use their preferred weapon?" The 'realism' lost in a system where all of the player characters are experts at using every weapon is more than made up for by allowing them to spend that XP on more interesting skills and talents, in my opinion.

By that logic, why charge them for anything? Why charge a player XP in order to use their preferred Skill? Why charge for Talents?

It's not a matter of "realism", it's a matter of internal consistency and character development. Your capability to use the preferred weapon of your character is as much a part of you as your ability to sneak past a group of guards or your propensity of violence and smashing the skulls of two persons at once.

Edit: My suggestions, reposted:

On weapon talents & proficiencies:

The way Weapon Training works in Only War doesn't sit well with me. But at the same time, neither does the older systems. No matter what, I think there is something lacking.

I was thinking I'd break weapons up into CLASS and TYPE, with two different talents. Weapon Proficiency (<class>) trains you in Class, while Weapon Training (<type>) trains you in Type.

Using a weapon for which you have neither Class nor Type would incur a -40 penalty, while having training in either Class or Type would incur a -20. Having training in both would mean no inherent penalty at all.

The "Arms Master"-talent would reduce the penalty by 20, to a maximum of -10 (So if you have Type but not Class, the penalty would be -10; If you have neither Class nor Type, it would be -20 instead of -40).

Some weapons would have no Type, while some may have no Class; this includes, for example, many Exotic Weapons that operate so differently that the only way you can realistically use them is with the Exotic Weapons Operation talent.

Classes would be Melee, Thrown, Basic, Pistol and Heavy.

ADDENDUM: Add "Unarmed" to Classes, based on Pugilist/Unarmed Warrior discussion here . /ADDENDUM EDIT: Scratch that. This is better achieved with a Special Quality. /EDIT

Types would be Bolt, Chain, Spray, Las, Launcher, Melta, Power, Shock, and Solid Projectile.

Some (Exotic) weapons would have Unique Type, corresponding to the general kind of exotic weapon it is. For example, weapons with the Eldar Type would all be usable by someone with the Exotic Weapons Operation (Eldar) talent. All Gauss Types with the Exotic Weapons Operation (Gauss). This is, of course, provided that they also can use that Class. In many cases, a Pistol is still a Pistol and a Heavy weapon is still Heavy.

What this system specifically allows is diversification of concepts, but what it does primarily for me is that it removes the sillyness of someone being able to use a Power Sword, but not a Feudal Sword. Or a Shock-Whip, but not a Grox-Whip.

This is because while you would need Weapon Proficiency (Melee) AND Weapon Training (Power) to use a Power Sword properly, a regular Feudal Sworld would only be Class: Melee, but with Type: None.

Weapon Proficiency (Class) would be categorized as a Tier 1 talent with the General and Offense OR Defence OR Finesse Aptitudes.

Weapons Training (Type) would be classified as a Tier 1 talent with the General and Finesse Aptitudes (just like basic Only War).

Sound good?

I really like this idea and would love it in our games. Thanks for posting

Thanks for the write up Fgdsfg. My only question is whether grenades are considered Thrown weapons here for proficiency purposes.

Overall, I do agree with cps that the Weapon Training talents are a gross tax on xp, especially at lower-levels. That being said, I am not totally in favor of just scrapping the talents. I would rather go with the suggestion of beefing up the starting WTs (particularly by adding at least Low-Tech and Las to every character). Additionally, I would prefer to see the distribution of WTs shifted to the roles rather than backgrounds.

I like fgdsfg's write-up, but I don't really care for the concept at all as relates to playing the game. I understand a need for consistency in the game, but this does seem like WAY too much of an xp tax. How about this:

Characters receive a number of weapon specialization talents based on their WS bonus and their BS bonus at character creation. The specialties that's character can choose from to start with are associated with his/her background. Players are now able to start with an interesting selection of possible weapons, you utilize the characteristic bonus, and you maintain some of the "realism" of the game.

I prefer keeping Weapon Training Talents, to represent the fact that stuff like Plasma and Heavy Weapons require special training and can't be wielded by any grunt as easily as a laspistol. But the starting Weapon Training Talents should be broadened. WTTs should be used to require a commitment by the character if they want to use a 'fancy' weapon, and not to impose nonsensical penalties for using a knife...

My suggestion should be well-known by now; they need to be split up between Type and Class, and "Low-Tech" needs to be scrapped. It's hilariously broken that you can somehow use a chainsword but not a dagger, with the right (or wrong, I guess) combination of talents.

Scrapping the system entirely would be ridiculous and tantamount to throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The idea that any Guardsman knows how to use a Plasma-weapon or all Acolytes know how to use a Rocket Launcher is preposterous.

I'm looking at it less from the position of "Every acolyte knows how to use every weapon" and more from the position of "What do these talents actually add to gameplay? Why charge a player XP in order to use their preferred weapon?" The 'realism' lost in a system where all of the player characters are experts at using every weapon is more than made up for by allowing them to spend that XP on more interesting skills and talents, in my opinion.

By that logic, why charge them for anything? Why charge a player XP in order to use their preferred Skill? Why charge for Talents?

By that logic, why charge them for anything? Why charge a player XP in order to use their preferred Skill? Why charge for Talents?

This is some real slippery slope argument here, and I feel like you probably realise that. Players are already charged XP for being proficient in using weapons. It's called WS and BS. Characteristics which have next to no application outside of shooting/hitting things.

I like fgdsfg's write-up, but I don't really care for the concept at all as relates to playing the game. I understand a need for consistency in the game, but this does seem like WAY too much of an xp tax.

Characters receive a number of weapon specialization talents based on their WS bonus and their BS bonus at character creation. The specialties that's character can choose from to start with are associated with his/her background. Players are now able to start with an interesting selection of possible weapons, you utilize the characteristic bonus, and you maintain some of the "realism" of the game.

But then, I already think that the Weapon Specialist of OW get too many free weapon training talents.

By that logic, why charge them for anything? Why charge a player XP in order to use their preferred Skill? Why charge for Talents?

This is some real slippery slope argument here, and I feel like you probably realise that. Players are already charged XP for being proficient in using weapons. It's called WS and BS. Characteristics which have next to no application outside of shooting/hitting things.

This.

A player choosing to be good at stealth skills over knowledge skills is an interesting character differentiation. A player choosing to be good at shooting lasers over miniature rockets is not really that interesting a distinction. That's the difference.

But then, I already think that the Weapon Specialist of OW get too many free weapon training talents.

In practical terms, the Weapon Specialist get's one "free" Weapon Training (if we assign two of his three to the Low Tech and Las or SP training which every single other Guardsman gets)... so I really don't can't agree with your position.

But then, I already think that the Weapon Specialist of OW get too many free weapon training talents.

In practical terms, the Weapon Specialist get's one "free" Weapon Training (if we assign two of his three to the Low Tech and Las or SP training which every single other Guardsman gets)... so I really don't can't agree with your position.

I wouldn't have either, until I started playing one.

*shrug*

For one, I think the Weapon Training talent should stay. It is a nice touch of realism and gives some staying power to basic SP/las weapons at the beginning of the characters' career (as they couldn't use the more advanced and much better weapons without the xp tax).

But I also agree with making low-tech weapons talent-free. And Weapon Training should have different xp costs depending on the weapon class it was bought for. An SP Weapon Training should be much cheaper than a Plasma Weapon Training.