As I mentioned before, I think a little modifier version of RT Universal talent would make sense.

> Simple Weapon Training: SP, Laser & Low-Tech Melee Weapons / Throwing Weapons

> Advanced Weapon Training : Chain Weapons, Shock Weapons, Flamer, Low-Tech Ranged Weapons (as they are rarer in use), Grenades, Chain Throwing Weapons, Bolt Weapons, Force Weapons, Launcher Weapons

> Professional Weapon Training: Plasma Weapons, Power Weapons, Melta Weapons, Power Throwing Weapons

> Heavy Weapon Training : is needed for the Heavy versions of above categories

> Exotic Weapon Training (as now)

It would allow for different proficiency level and still be compact enough.

I'd like to see a weapon training (basic) which incorporated knifes, las weapons, SP weapons and other 'common' weaponry to the settings.

I think Heavy, Chain, Power, Plasma, Melta (possibly merge these last two into advanced energy or something), Flame and exotic should stay separate to represent specialised training.

Basically I don't have a problem with a character paying a (frankly low) cost in order to acquire a talent to use a weapon which will likely require specialist knowledge (chain weapons are referred to as heavy and unwieldy in many sources, which require the wielder to know how to handle one to reduce the odds of finger loss) but think characters should start out with all of the 'standard' weapons available to then. Its a bit annoying that my character with SP weapon training can't use a lasgun, even though both operate in the same fundamental way (aim, pull trigger).

A plasma gun on the other hand is an ancient and little understood piece of equipment, which in some cases vastly reduces the wielders life expectancy. There absolutely should be penalties for trying to use one if you don't know how.

I agree partially.

Maybe it really would be enough to have a "Basic" Weapon training talent, which has SP, Las and Low-Tech (melee) in it.

Those are talents which everyone anyway will learn or has just from the beginning.

See it as a basic training from the Inquisition for Acolytes.

The rest remains the same.

Well, just to add my two Thrones to this discussion, I'd like to say that, if you change the penalties to -20 and -10, respectively, Fgdsfg suggestion would be perfect.

It's easy to notice that the Warhammer setting and game divide weapons by class and type already. You always notice the weapons in terms of what they are (pistols, rifles, etc) and what nasty instrument of death they deliver at their opponents (bullets, bolts, plasma, screaming gretchins throug the warp, etc).

the flaw of the rules is only capturing half of this. Can't you perfectly picture a primitive guard, a master with a flintlock, having some difficulty with a lasgun? that handicap, however, would not be the same as that of character who doesn't know how to operate either rifles or laser weapons.

So, weapons have classes and types. If you don't know how to use either, you have a penalty of -20. If you know how to use one, but not the other, your penalty goes down to -10. If you know how to use both, you have no penalty and may the heretics quake at your coming.

I strongly agree that both kinds of talent should be T1 with at least one general aptitude, making them cheaper, and that basic weapons just should have no type, or better, a "simple" type that requires no talent.

I would just like to stop and congratulate Fgdsfg for this very elegant and efficient idea.

Yes this. Can we please start with this?

Wouldn't it be far more interesting if the flamer specialist was the guy who's taken talents that allow him to use Flamers more efficiently in new and interesting ways, rather than the dude who's taken a talent to dodge a boring flat penalty on his attack roll?

And then do stuff like this for each weapon?

Basically, yeah. It'd help diversify each class of weapon and give them all their own distinct niches, too, which would be good. Proficiency with a weapon should be less about whether or not you can use the thing without shooting yourself in the leg, and more about the cool, interesting stuff you can do with your weapon of choice.

Basically, yeah. It'd help diversify each class of weapon and give them all their own distinct niches, too, which would be good. Proficiency with a weapon should be less about whether or not you can use the thing without shooting yourself in the leg, and more about the cool, interesting stuff you can do with your weapon of choice.

See, I don't agree with that. Some of these weapons are unstable and dangerous. If you pick one up without the proper knowledge (or strength, see the rules for operating Astartes weapons as a non Astartes) then it should be a potentially risky thing to do.

Then make it risky. As it stands, it's a -20 modifier. That's not risky, it's just making characters incompetent for no readily apparent reason other than very poorly implemented realism.

Yeah, that's fair. I'd be on board with penalties imposing risk over accuracy, such as maybe a penalty to the AG test to drop the plasma gun on an overheat (you don't see the warning signs due to unfamiliarity or something). Don't know how well that will sit with the 'stop all penalties crowd though'

Then make it risky. As it stands, it's a -20 modifier. That's not risky, it's just making characters incompetent for no readily apparent reason other than very poorly implemented realism.

What I usually do is treat any weapon a character has no proficiency with as unreliable.

That could work well if it scaled.

Reliable weapon loses reliable quality

Regular weapon becomes unreliable

Unreliable weapon gain overheat 91+ injury chance

Weapons with natural overheat cannot be dropped

All guns without appropriate talent are treated as inaccurate

Thats all way too complicated. Good ideas, but too a big balancing thing.

The way they so far copied OW indicates that complex changes will have low chance of being implemented.

Well, it was just something off the top of my head while I wait for my skype game to start to be fair

A simple version could just be 'If you don't have the talent the gun gains the inaccurate quality'. Its a bit flavourless though.

Don't ge tme wrong - I like the concept of your idea.

Just am afraid it might be too complex to get a chance...

/\/\/\ Those are boring.

Basically, yeah. It'd help diversify each class of weapon and give them all their own distinct niches, too, which would be good. Proficiency with a weapon should be less about whether or not you can use the thing without shooting yourself in the leg, and more about the cool, interesting stuff you can do with your weapon of choice.

Las - Your las-weapon fire inflicts Pinning (as Weapon Specialist in OW)

SP - Your SP weapons come with 1 modification of your choice and may have 1 more modification by weapon quality.

Low-tech - If you succeed on your attack by 3+ DoS, your attack goes unnoticed by nearby enemies (something to help silent takedowns? Maybe auto-kill with a stealth attack?)

Plasma - You are skilled in dealing with overheating plasma weapons and may direct the energy of the weapon away from yourself. Something to the effect of making a short-ranged flame attack with the energy from the overheat.

Melta - Melta weapons now have double AP at short-mid range (bye-bye cover. or maybe, characters without this training do not gain the benefit of the Melta quality)

Bolt - Your bolt-weapon fire gains Blast(1) to represent firing tiny missiles at a target

Flame - If you successfully light an opponent on fire, you gain Fear(1) (or +1 if you have Fear already)

Chain - If your attack deals damage, also deal 1 critical damage to that location. If you deal critical damage, add 1. (+1 damage is kind of boring so maybe something else...)

Power - You are adept at destroying weapons with power fields. Your attacks automatically destroy weapons vulnerable to the Power Field special quality (maybe +X pen as well. WSb?)

Those all actually sound interesting and fun, cps, and I like them.

However, in the interest of comedy, I have to ask, have you run the math on them?

Yeah, I like those. I've got some extra ideas, which could also work (or just act as extra talents, no need to limit things.

Las - You're extra attuned with how your weapon works, knowing how to squeeze that extra bit of juice out of the power pack. All Las weapons wielded by you increase their capacity by 50 percent.

Las - You know your weapon's limits well, and by extension, how to push them. When firing on overcharge settings, your weapon does not lose the Reliable quality.

Plasma - After far too many close calls, you've got a good sense for when a plasma gun is about to blow up on you. You no longer have to make an Agility test to drop an overheating plasma gun. (This would, of course, involve adding an Agility test to the Overheat rules, but I've always thought that should be a thing.)

Melta - Not only do your attacks penetrate armour, they all but demolish it. When firing a melta weapon against a non-vehicle or structure target, you reduce the effective armour value of the target's armour by your DoS, permanently. This reduction is applied AFTER the attack's damage is calculated. (This may feel fairly OP, but I kinda feel that melta should be , it's designed to be a reliable tool for destroying tanks.)

Bolt - You know where to direct your attacks so that the explosive force of your shots shakes your target to the core, significantly reducing their ability to fight back. Bolter shots gain the Concussive (0) quality.

I'm sure I can think up more when it's not 4 AM, but that's what I've got off the top of my head.

Those all actually sound interesting and fun, cps, and I like them.

However, in the interest of comedy, I have to ask, have you run the math on them?

Of course not. Like almost everyone here I just pull things out of my ass and think they sound great.

Those all actually sound interesting and fun, cps, and I like them.

However, in the interest of comedy, I have to ask, have you run the math on them?

Of course not. Like almost everyone here I just pull things out of my ass and think they sound great.

Oh irony... how flippancy does not diminish you