So what is our most current canon map?

..and I'd go with less populated cities.

jh

I don't think there's a current RPG canon map of "known world" or "whole world" (3rd has not done one to my knowledge).

It's the WFB books that tend to have them, elf and lizard etc., the beastman book with its "where are the concentrations of them" splotches etc. (I picked up a whack of them used for the bits of fluff in them)

Added - woo hoo, Ranald smiles upon me, the June edition of KWAS is Serpent Folk!

http://www.pelgranepress.com/?p=14924

Yea, I've picked up the new WFB books for as low as 50 cents on clearance at gamestores that seem to open and close here in Colorado on a whim. They are an excellent source of new ideas.

Hmm

Have you considered using the Pantathian's from Feist as a source of Idea's?

Alma Lodka could be an agent of Chaos, or perhaps another Slann off-shoot mage?

I admit to only a dim recollection of them, I think they too "owe a debt" to Lovecraft/Howard's Serpent People which is what I'm going for. I haven't thought too much about their psychology but don't see them so "bent" as the Pantathians, there may even be some "simply isolationist" ones and a bit of an internal argument about "destroy those last vestiges of the Ancient Enemy's plan" vs "do something about the threat of Chaos destroying the world".

The existing Serpent People went into hibernation during the Skyfire War (Old Ones bombing from orbit perhaps, no need to ever be clear), they never saw the Old Ones in person (so we maintain that mystery). They were not around for the Cataclysm - al lthey know is the Old Ones showed up, destroyed their race, then when the handful of survivors come out of hibernation they found Old Ones gone, all these lab experiment humanoids running around, and Chaos threatening to overwhelm the world (being cold blooded like the Old Ones they had never "stirred up" Chaos very much, they were aware of its potential but avoided over-using it, never developed the warp-gate technology)

All in all, one can forgive the Serpent People thinking the Old Ones made a botch of everything and being steamed about it (steal our planet and ruin it). They are not as advanced as the Old Ones were, not even really equal to the Slann (if they were, they would take direct action), and so don't have the means to "save the world" from Chaos directly (can't close the gates etc.). However, unlike the Slann they have no affection for the Old Ones Plan and the place of warm-blooded humanoids in it. So some among them think the way to combat Chaos etc. is to get rid of these warm-blooded humanoids that feed and emplower it. There are likely some Slann also pondering the value of "hitting the reset button".

Well, I like the Serpent Folk idea.

Remember the Troglodytes from as far as WFRP1 core rulebook. I dont know how much information about them are found after that and how much they are connected to Lizardmen in official sources. But, I think they were another race of Lizards that Old Ones created. So, why not intelligent Serpents also. Would give nice original touch to the continent.

Lizardmen and Southlands: Question is - what happened to them? Their numbers seem to reduce there. And sources give ideat that remaining are more "barbaric" than they kin in Lustria. It had to be constant wars against Chaos and Jungle Beastmen that finally broke the Southland Empire and remaining went to dark ages? I think something like this could work with Serpent Folk...

By the way - Are you adding also Dwarf-fluff in the project?

There is also the lost hold of Karak Zorn, considered to be the very first Dwarf settlement. Located in the mountains of the Southlands, it is fabled as a highly wealthy settlement, with towering zigurats made of gold. However, all contact with the hold was lost around the Imperial Year -2000, with the last messages being of large armies of Lizardmen attacking the city. Any expedition that has set out to find the city has never returned.

Thanks - yes I have found the threads of (a) daemons were banished from Southlands before they could romp gleefully through cities, plaque sequence more intact but (b) Lustria has more active presence of lizardfolk than Southlands and Southlands are "barbaric" etc. a bit of a challenge to address.

I sometimes chose "one path" when these things come up but usually "take GW's interesting handling of setting" as a "creative challenge".

I have come up with a reason Slann withdrew from most cities making them "skink only" (will be explained when I post draft, it was a "take Serpent Queen book fluff point + WFB lizardman fluff point about something that happened in Lustria, then say same thing here and voila - Slann evacuate bunch of cities).

My explanation for "what happened to all of the Southlands lizardmen" is that having fended off the incursion locally, and recall this was before contact was lost between the continents, the Southlands Slann dutifully sent off their lizardmen and many themselves went to join the millions of lizardmen fighing and dying in Lustria. So the Southlands was still depopulated, they just did their fighting and dying elsewhere (shades of the elf colonial recall).

There's a much higher proportion of militant skinks, lots of Chameleon Skinks, and that may result in the barbaric flavour. "Barbaric" is also bit of PR also though. The Chameleon Skinks wage a war of terror to keep others out of the depopulated cities, putting up lots of shrunk heads etc., so this gives the sense of barbarism.

Troglogytes I could see Old Ones creating as a "miner race" to get resoruces for them. I think official fluff has the Saurus and Kroxigor do all the 'heavy lifting' but that doesnt' stop Trogs from being created. A key dividing line for me in these things is "does a race reproduce naturally or is it tied to spawning from a temple city site".

There is a wacking huge concentration of beastmen in the south-central-east bit of Southlands according to beastman book and I am making the "eastern" remaining active Temple City in a "constant state of conflict".

References to Karak Zorn definitely to be included. There are maps showing where it is (near the "lost plateau" which is interesting if you look up what it's name means in dwarfish). So far I am leaving it "to be filled in by an individual GM" but may add more suggestions. Where does the "ziggurats of gold" reference come from? That's a neat one that I haven't seen.

Hope to get more of your input when I post draft. It will have lots of highlights where I'm filling in stuff or looking for others to help if I haven't been struck by inspiration yet.

So part of what my work needs is rules on using winds of magic when they are weaker.

Winds come from both poles where gates crashed etc. They are "normal" in game terms from below chaos wastes to some place before the lands of Nekhara and Araby which are known to be poor for winds. Then they are really weak in equatorial zone.

Do folks think this map captures it? One issue with Nekhara is a straight line of where wind strength drops puts Ulthuan's southern lands in same region. However winds would not transition in strength strictly on latitude, that's a general guide. Ulthuan's great ritual drawing in magic would make it more magical than latitude suggests.

this means that the extreme Southlands is not magically poor (were the elves have current outposts and also where I put my "Ivory Kingdoms", the most advanced native cultures).

I plan to make Channeling harder but not spellcasting,, in fact Miscasts would be less common because there is less ambient magic to trigger (a bit of a trade off to not beat up completely on PC wizards). It's getting the power to work magic that's hard, not working it per se. It would still be harder, but not as hard, to channel some winds when in a linked environment (e.g. Ghyran in jungle, Aqshy when hot generally).

Necromancy of course works fine. Blessings work on theory they draw from the gods (the aethyr, warp, what you will).

[map deleted as superseded by draft document on page 4 of thread]

Comments/ideas welcome.

Perhaps all channeling could be treated as if in conservative stance?

That's a little tame and no change for casters who favour conservative.

What mix of misfortune, challenge, some # failures into outcome pool, minus x to any power generated is more what I'm debating.

I believe an old fan supplement for Araby suggested (in percentile system) making Channelling 20% harder there.

Perhaps a misfortune in Poor, and 2 in very poor?

Challenge dice could work in very poor, but auto fails are a pretty hard ask. 2 Auto-fails are statistically better than 2 challenge dice.

Perhaps you could instead of adding more penalties, add layers of success instead?

1 success equals 2 power and every success afterwards adds an additional power no matter your stance? Boons could represent attunement to the aetheric environment and allow the use of normal rules for your next channeling roll?

20% harder casting/channelling comes out to approximately 4 black dice (in a standard caster).

You could put automatic two cancels.

jh

Thanks Jay, more in line with my thinking and the draft I share will be along those lines, maybe just a bit less harsh.

The New Coast is, by the map I shared above, in the Poor region not Equatorial very poor so it won't punish magic users as much as the Equatorial zone. Having a wand or other storage device will be critical for spelllcasters.

Southland Dwarfs:

Back to the question about the mysterious lost Dwarf settlement and the "towering ziggurats of gold". I dont remember where I got this one, but I checked few WIKI-articles and they too have the same commect.

My pet is, that is somewhere from the WFB: Dwarfs books (maybe timeline, maybe somewhere else) or even WFB:Lizardmen book.

Because I also remember there was some conflict between Dwarfs and Lizardmen too. This was -2000.

Some ideas about magic-use in equator-area:

You probably read David Graham The Magic of Araby (WFRP2, Liber Fanatica). We had good time developing the Necromancy and these rules, well - seems like ages ago.

Now, later, I think I would have changed LITTLE more those magic rules. I have read Slaves to Darkness books, where the Norse reavers make little ride to the coast of Araby. They very much describe the disappearance of their Gods (Dark Gods) will and power. And this is troublesome to them.

• So, I would say that both Colour Magic and Chaos Magic are hindered. This is because the source of these powers float from the poles and become weak. Also the will of the Dark Gods is weaker.
• Necromancy uses the Dhar pools of the lands. Even this is same Dark Magic (Dhar) as Chaos Magic, I would still penalize more the use of Chaos Sorcery and not the Necromancy, because they do channel the magic little differently. Necromancy doesn't gain the power from one of the Dark Gods.
• And High Magic is not affected by the weakening of the winds because they draw power upon multiple winds at once allowing its practitioners to gather enough energies for their spells.
• Dwaf Rune Magic . Well, this is more interesting - I would give penalties to this one too...

As for the penalties then:

• POOR areas might create minor penalties. WFRP2 penalties -20 to Channelling and -2 to Casting might be something like Misfortune die (MAYBE two) in WFRP3.
• VERY POOR areas is another thing - Should be even more hindered. I would go for Challenge die or automatic failures.

Thanks. Yup Dhar is your "go to" - does make me think a bit about earlier edition negative effects from using it.

Effects on High Magic are bit academic (personally I think it would be hindered in very poor but Teclis is not showing up). I'm also thinking Chaos Gods not as present - just because some tribes are cannibals doesn't mean they worship Khorne (though that's small consolation as they tenderize the meat). The plagues are Skaven not Nurgle. Though again, by the time you get to the southernmost part of the continent winds are "normal".

Part of what I was wanting to make sure I had right is that winds come from north and from south, so going far enough south they return in strength.

I'm now thinking the following in terms of effects:

The Winds of Magic are weaker in the Southlands as the Equatorial zone is as far from the poles as one can go. Casting magic works normally, it is getting the power through Chanelling that is more difficult. However, miscasts are also less likely as the weaker winds are less unpredictable (count Chaos Star as one fewer for miscast purposes).

However, some Winds are a bit easier due to environmental factors. Aqshy is generally easier due to hot climate making “heat” a much dwelled upon concept, Ghyran and Ghur are both easier in jungles where there is so much plant and animal life this explains the modified results for these colours

Going south, Winds become poor in the region of Araby and Khemri (3 black to Channeling) and then very poor in the Equatorial Zone such as the Bay of Medes (2 black and failure), before again becoming poor continuing South (e.g., to the Dark Coast and New Coast), and then returning to normal in the furthest Southlands (Ivory Kingdoms and Elven outposts). Aqshy , Ghyran or Ghur users if circumstances are right instead face Poor 2 black and Very Poor (3 black)

In addition, in poor and very poor regions there is no automatic recovery when below Equilbrium during Acts.

In very poor regions, starting Power at the opening of an Act is reduced. Roll Challenge die and subtract one power from Equilibrium for each failure or three power for Chaos Star. Aqshy , Ghyran or Ghur users if circumstances are right may roll a fortune die) as well to try to counter a failure.

Geomantic lines between temple cities and inside pyramids would have their own rules. Pyramids focus enough energy to be normal all the time. Geomantic lines can be tapped but at considerable risk (there's a short story where a wizard does that and "brings the house down").

If it became relevant, I would make daemons more "unstable" in poor and very poor region (if using the daemon group card rule for it, have the track shortened, perhaps in very poor zone advance it automatically every round).

- Note if you look at the map, much of the interesting stuff do to in Southlands is actually not in the equatorial very poor zone, PC's more likely to face Poor. However, if anyone is looking for it, the maps that show where Karak Zorn are if overlaid with my map would likely put it in Very Poor zone. Then again, what dwarf wants a wizard around anyway.

- I note that one of the New Coast colonies is going to be on a geomantic line - just for fun (and also on a ruin of an ancient Nekharan colony for added fun, per mention several posts up, more ruins better, so some Nekharans got here and settled long ago [settled because they hadn't found what they were sent for and decided not see another half of them die getting home just to be executed]).

Some more thoughts, based on your ideas:

• Yes - I liked your map about the "magical flow". I'm very sure both poles of the world had the Old Ones Gateways (some "chaos" maps point that south is as dark as north), so yes - the magic should flow strong in the south.
• Your thinking that to boost poor Winds of Magic, you could channel the power from the land - like Kislev Ice Shamans/Witches? This is logical, but this type of casting should probably be result of study of using the magic this way (channel the energy of land). I dont think Imperial Wizard can do this (easily). Local witches might have learned this way over the generations. Yet, their practice maybe unstable/clumsy in some other way.
• Geomantic Lines are another matter - They could provided some boost. If they are not corrupted or destroyed. Probably some are...
• I think it works well, that Dwarfen "original home" is situated in the VERY POOR region. Dwarfs are non-magical race. The knowledge of Runes might have come ALOT later when they went to north.

High Magic and it's penalties:

• Other possibility could be that High Magic is not hindered in the POOR regions, but it is hindered little (minor penalties) in the VERY POOR.
• If so - Slann and High Elf masters like Teclis are SO powerful that they do not really even notice this penalty.
• Also both Slann and High Elves have numerous magical boost that more than make up with those penalties.

Thanks. Yes re boosts. The Slann would be in pyramids and on geomantic lines most of time and otherwise have storage devices and nummy nummy Itzi Grubs (one of the things I'm bringing over from WFB, not so nummy to humans or elves, Resilience check). If out on safari (hardly common event) that was planned, a Slann might even work some mojo that created a temporary link back to its pyramid.

In terms of Kislevite style Ice Magic some parallels possible. There's no 3rd edition model of that so I don't think I'm going to try developing it. Behind scenes could explain some local non-college etc. magic. My understanding is that the "land" would need the magic to begin with - going back to the Winds (e.g., in Kislev winds through land to ice witch). This could have a parallel - the area labeled Jungles of the Gods (Poor) is going to be one of those "special forests" but a bit sleepier than Athel Loren. Jungle-versions of fey spirits. There's a nice reference to real world practices of some African tribes, along line of "when one of their number is harmed they sing to wake the jungle for it has fallen asleep and must wake up to protect them"..

The major "magic" of the more civilized Ebonians is more ancestor worship/vodoo (loa are ancestors in some views).

This is an incomplete draft of my work to date. Lots of stat blocks to do and things to develop. However I welcome comments and suggestions etc.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zqnkk94n5iiqafz/Southlands_draft.pdf

Finished work would include a regional map of New Coast and other things.

I deleted the map file of wind zones as it's now in this draft.

Well, let' start with few things from the timeline:

- 2421 Losterikson. Yes, I have this one on my Norsca Timeline also. He is not the first and "the great" Losteriksson that found Skeggi from Lustria (which was as early as 888). That is in a "New Coast" also by the way... I think this is some mistake between different editions of WFB, but I taught why not make two different fellows and kept both these entries on my timeline. So, that could be explanation for that.

- 2462 and 2503 - Is this something you invented or from some source? Either way I do like it and like to add this one to my Norsca Project.

- 2522 - The Templemann Expedition & the New TEW timeline. I know we have talked about this one before. I still thing, with the current knowledge, that year 2522 is wrong year for the New TEW campaing - It should be 2521 (when Surtha Lenk is doing his Spiring Driving). But, this is not important in this project.

- 2522 - New covernor is Marcus Baerfaust - What is this ?! He is not the Black Cowl?

How about doing this sourcebook without any rules? I mean leave the rules outside and give system specific rules in a different side-document? This is really good project-idea and becoming - well, just really good sourcebook about region that should have been visited ages ago. This is something that could eventually serve all the editions, even the coming 4th edition one day...

I'll keep reading and try to find something more to comment. So far looking pretty good.

Thanks for digging in.

2421 (oops should have foot-noted that). Warhammer Battle Bestiary,1984, page 11, 100 years ago Losterikson discovers New Coast. That's not dead set at 100, could be less than 100 the way timeline is given (a bar with years as -100, -200, -500) and then events more or less next to these points. However, then we have Marienburg Sold Down the River, 1999, page 21, which gives 2421 as "Discovery of New Coast" but does not say by who (it also gives the Gold Rush in 2463). So I use former for who and latter for specific date.

- This is Old World history and the actual name of the Norse explorer could easily have been gotten wrong of course.

2462 and 2503 - No sure which 2462 you mean. 2503 I invented. I could find no named colonies in New Coast so created all of them and decided at least a couple would "not have made it", the early Estalian effort and then Norse - them being aggressive were good candidates to annoy lizardfolk.

2522/21 : I use 2521 to start my campaign (Eye for an Eye extrapolates to it) and 2522 as the year of the events in 3rd Edition Enemy Within. That's very much my campaign (though its also year on map in back of the adventure book). The 2520 events onwards can all be moved back or forward a year depending on "what year 3rd Enemy Within" takes place in during a given campaign. I'll put a box in about that.

Marcus Baerfaust - who's the BC depends on campaign. If he's not and survives, he was duped by his Lieutenant/2nd in command and so a shame-duty like Governor of the Southlands makes sense. Then again, puts him close to source of that Effigy if he is a villain. Again, a campaign can vary but a new governor with ties to the shenanigans of Enemy Within is fun. On assumption this is a likely destination for any PC's, an "ambiguous" governor is goal. That and not pushing fun NPC's offstage.

Rules/System Neutral - I need to do the rules anyway, statting some creatures was originally a key part of my objective, so am including them as one document for simplicity. Except for the stat-blocks, they are in their own section at end so can be "jettisoned" if desired. If an earlier edition fan wanted to do the "2nd edition" take on things that would be fine, the two editions take a similar enough view of things like colours of magic etc. to simply use different stats for same fluff. Also some of the "fun stuff" is very bound up in some rules stuff like the "invisible predator" that haunts corrupt geomantic lines.

Thanks reading it carefully and taking time to comment, please do keep going!

File is updated with those edits.

The Losteriksson bit is an issue since yes, same name circa 800 discovers Lustria according to Lizardman WFB, though Marienburg Sold Down River puts that in 2402. One of those wonderful "edition" things.

The 1984 text has Lustia discovered by "Erik the Lost" and New Cost discovered by Losteriksson, obviously fairly close together, which is also what Marienburg SDR suggests.

Depends how far back you want your Norse in Lustria/discovery of Lustria.

I'm quite game to "switch names" of the Norse explorer who found New Coast, or perhaps there is now a Losteriksson clan of Norse?

Yeah - My take is, that it is mistake, but easily corrected. These do happen alot in Warhammer fluff. With little creation they can be fixed.

• I would go with WFB-fluff, because the Lustria thing is set in many places now in the year 888. Either ignore the 2402 Discovery of Lustria in Marienburg, or change that little (maybe Wastelanders found colonyt there in 2402).
• Erik the Lost and his son Losteriksson are mentioned in the WFB:Conquest of the New World . Erik the Lost was probably the first Norse in the Southlands. Great explorer, who ended accidentally to the Southlands (he was going for the Lustria). But it was his son, Losteriksson, that became the "greatest" explorer who found Lustria and Skeggi. This was in 9th century. This doesn't say that it was Erik who found the New Coast , just ended up as far as Southlands.
• So, maybe then the second Losteriksson actually founds the New Coast SOOO much later (2421). I would go with the Losteriksson clan name and that this "second losteriksson" ancestors would be (or was rumoured to be) the first Losteriksson (and also the Erik the Lost).

PS. Yes - I meant 2465 & 2503 and the Norse colony. But you got my point. And I got my answere . Let's put this Longaxe colonyt to both projects and timelines.

WFB fluff it shall be. There's also the good old time warpy idea. There's WFB precedent for that (there's a sauran who travels forward in time to be at a major conflict), Losteriksson manages to lose 1600 years somewhere...., perhaps carrying a cursed gew gaw, which he is said to have hidden somewhere in the New Coast.... (perhaps the real reason the lizardmen stormed Longaxe.....). Can never have too many cursed gew gaws floating about...

Another lostericsson whould also need a father called lost Eric, so he could be his son.

more likely it was a lazy apprentice scribe wrote down the wrong date