I've been thinking about Unnatural Characteristics. I've always liked the change between Deathwatch and Black Crusade, where they become additive instead of multiplicative, but I don't think that change went far enough.

When we did the Only War Beta, folks complained that the Unnatural Strength and Toughness for Ogryn was too low. After all, tabletop Ogryn are stronger and tougher than Space Marines but Space Marines had Unnaturals of 4 compared to Ogryn's Unnaturals of 2. It occurred to me shortly after the playtest closed that the problem is not the Ogryns. The problem is the Space Marines.

I have playtested a Deathwatch adventures with Space Marines receiving Unnatural Strength and Toughness 2, and not using the "Astartes" grade weapons. I found the Space Marines to preform heroically, neigh invulnerable to small arms (but not completely invulnerable) but still interesting to play.

I would like to propose reducing the "standard" of Unnatural bonuses by about half and doing away with the Astartes grade weapons. This, I have found, mitigates the overpowered nature of certain adversaries (like Spare Marines) while still making them powerful, eliminates the need for two different types of bolter, eliminates the need for the Felling weapon trait (which only seems to exist to negate the overpowered nature of Unnatural Toughness) and still makes for interesting play. I think it actually opens up the possibility if playing Space Marines alongside (very experienced) humans without the need for a lot of special rules.

I also expect this will be a wildly unpopular opinion, but I though I'd toss it out there.

They are steel and they are doom.

Don't you dare to say they are portayed too strong.

It's what they are - the Emperors Finest.

I would like to propose reducing the "standard" of Unnatural bonuses by about half and doing away with the Astartes grade weapons. This, I have found, mitigates the overpowered nature of certain adversaries (like Spare Marines )

I LOL'd .

I think someone should really establish if Space Marines are just augmented normal humans or real meta-humans. In the first case, I'm perfectly OK with Unnatural Toughness (2) but then your Space Marines are like the more important characters of the Gears of War series: they are just tougher, meaner grunts with 50% more grit and badass - but at the end of the day, they are nothing very special.

THEY ARE STEEL AND THEY ARE DOOM - dammit ;D

We could argue forever about how strong Space Marines are; the various fluff sources support all kinds of power levels. I think it's more constructive to look at what makes for a more enjoyable game that scales better. And in this case, I think the suggestion in the OP is great.

Nagh.....a Space Marine should wipe the ground with a regular human.

A peak human can compete with a Space Marine. Officio Assasinorum members do it pretty often in the Black Library novels.

And anyway, a Space Marine's superiority should be represented by their training, equipment and across the board augmentation, not just HRRRG HULK SMASH.

I think it's more constructive to look at what makes for a more enjoyable game that scales better.

But then we could just lift up the Space Marines on the power scale meter: instead of some random "LUL, SPAESH MHARINES!" description, we could have a "They are legendary warriors with extraordinary abilities. Even the bestest Acolytes with the bestest wargear will have problems with fighting even one of these mighty demigods." and then make Space Marines something like an Epic encounter. The warning was given, the power level fits, problem solved.

A peak human can compete with a Space Marine. Officio Assasinorum members do it pretty often in the Black Library novels.

Imperial Assassins are not normal humans. They are genetically augmented, just like Space Marines.

I would like to point out that, with Toughness 40, Unnatural Toughness 2 and Power Armor, Space Marines are pretty much still Steel and Doom(!). They can shrug off standard stub and las fire like raindrops (Righteous Fury notwithstanding).

Of course, for issues of setting, I always look back the tabletop... and controversial position here, I know... and for this I look at a tabletop Guardsman vs a tabletop Marine. The tabletop Marine will whip the floor with the Guardsman, but that Guardsman does have a slim chance of defeating the Marine. As opposed to the the "snowballs chance in hell" he currently has in 40K RP.

Personally, I have found that my proposal makes special rules like Felling and Astartes weapons unneeded, makes Space Marines more interesting and dynamic in play and generally mitigates the "problem" of Unnatural Characteristics... which isn't that the rule is bad but that the rule is badly applied. (Of course, I'm frankly shocked that anyone agreed with me... so, cool.)

Imperial Assassins are not normal humans. They are genetically augmented, just like Space Marines.

I presented that example pretty poorly. Imperial Assassins can pretty easily wipe the floor with your common Space Marine. Going by that, I don't think it's ridiculous for a heavily augmented, suitably experienced and plot armoured Acolyte to approach the same level of competence as your standard tactical marine, honestly. The power gulf doesn't have to be so gigantic.

Also, if this change was implemented, it'd mean that Deathwatch or Grey Knight PCs would be entirely viable at higher XP levels, which I would enjoy a lot. Deathwatch in particular have been known to be assigned to Inquisitors on a fairly permanent basis, so there's fluff precedent.

I think it's more constructive to look at what makes for a more enjoyable game that scales better.

But then we could just lift up the Space Marines on the power scale meter: instead of some random "LUL, SPAESH MHARINES!" description, we could have a "They are legendary warriors with extraordinary abilities. Even the bestest Acolytes with the bestest wargear will have problems with fighting even one of these mighty demigods." and then make Space Marines something like an Epic encounter. The warning was given, the power level fits, problem solved.

A peak human can compete with a Space Marine. Officio Assasinorum members do it pretty often in the Black Library novels.

Imperial Assassins are not normal humans. They are genetically augmented, just like Space Marines.

I also would see it rather this way.

Real imperial assassins are clearly above a regular human.

They are genetically improved, cybernetically enhanced, highly trained and equipped with deadly weapons.

They indeed are on a similar level like Space Marines. One could say, they are the emperors second finest ;D

They're arguably better than Space Marines. Maybe not in an honest firefight, but in most other situations I'm fairly sure a Vindicare or Eversor is going to beat a Tactical Marine.

In special circumstances yes - as they hit when their time has come.

But on average I'd go with a space marine.

Anyway, another important thing to consider on this topic; if you bring the Space Marine power level down, in terms of characteristics, that means you can much more easily accommodate for the myriad creatures in the setting that are above and beyond the power of a typical Space Marine. Scaling is one of the biggest issues of the 40kRPG system, and really needs to be addressed.

Of course, for issues of setting, I always look back the tabletop... and controversial position here, I know... and for this I look at a tabletop Guardsman vs a tabletop Marine. The tabletop Marine will whip the floor with the Guardsman, but that Guardsman does have a slim chance of defeating the Marine. As opposed to the the "snowballs chance in hell" he currently has in 40K RP.

On the tabletop, an average Guardsman with a lasgun has 10% chance to incapacitate a Space Marine. And he has the same chance (10%) to cause Righteous Fury in the RPG .

That RF is absolutely not going to incapacitate a Space Marine anyway, though. It'll give him a single wound probably.

Of course, for issues of setting, I always look back the tabletop... and controversial position here, I know... and for this I look at a tabletop Guardsman vs a tabletop Marine. The tabletop Marine will whip the floor with the Guardsman, but that Guardsman does have a slim chance of defeating the Marine. As opposed to the the "snowballs chance in hell" he currently has in 40K RP.

On the tabletop, an average Guardsman with a lasgun has 10% chance to incapacitate a Space Marine. And he has the same chance (10%) to cause Righteous Fury in the RPG .

Except that there is a huge difference between incapacitating a Space Marine and doing 1 point of damage to a Space Marine.

I dont consider the scaling to be that bad.

There are mainly 3 things that need to be careful about:

> Defence values that cant be broken

> Dodging that always dodges

> Damage that annihilates anything

Two of those are definitely issues facing Space Marines. Deathwatch as a whole is just a game of escalating Toughness Bonuses and finding ways to overcome them. It's really bad game design.

That RF is absolutely not going to incapacitate a Space Marine anyway, though. It'll give him a single wound probably.

I mean, maybe the problem is that the Righteous Fury is not "Righteous" enough.

Eh. A lucky shot shouldn't be able to incapacitate anything regardless of their defences. I think it'd be better to look at the raw defence values of NPCs, rather than the RF rules. Otherwise you'd have guardsmen instagibbing Carnifexes.

I think Marines are fine where they are. They truly are better then regular humans in almost every way. They chosen from the best of the best of us, and their gene seed does more then just give them big muscles. It changes their genetic code. They aren't really Homo Sapien anymore. If you want to lower Space Marines unnaturals, you'd have to lower everyones, which wouldn't be a terrible problem, but then you'd probably also need to lower racial stat averages. Not everything is going to fit into D100. It's weird looking at a Squiggoth and seeing Unnatural Toughness +13, but that's just how we hafta roll with it.

I don't see why we need unnaturals anyway. Breaking 100 for characteristics isn't that catastrophic, a Squiggoth SHOULD by all means be auto-passing what's considered a challenging test for a human. BS and WS are the only characteristics where values over 100 really break things, but they have no real need to go that high anyway.

Eh. A lucky shot shouldn't be able to incapacitate anything regardless of their defences. I think it'd be better to look at the raw defence values of NPCs, rather than the RF rules. Otherwise you'd have guardsmen instagibbing Carnifexes.

But that's how Guardsmen incapacitate Space Marines on the TT too: with lucky shots. Or plasma/melta guns, but that's a different topic entirely .