1.) Some risk at fettered level would be more interesting than no risk at all

2.) the power trees feel too restrictive (maybe rather go with aptitdes like talents ?)

3.) there are psy powers that feel like doubles and should be consolidated; especially Foreboding/Forewarning and Prescience/Precognition in Divination

4.) I liked the different sustaining costs in beta1 and also the different phenomena tables per discipline

5.) A sidebar with rules to play an astropath would be nice

6.) Telepathic Link should be split into Mindscan and Telepathy (currently it feels odd and hard to balance in its difficulty)

7.) Missing the following powers from DH1 very much:

> Dowsing

> Soul Sight

> Psychic Blade

> Cellular Control (as in DH1)

> Projection

> some of the minor powers (Wall Walk, White Noise, Call Item, Fearful Aura, Distort Vision)

8.) Can manipulate flame stop flamers/meltas to work ? If yes, maybe thats worth mentioning

9.) Can spontaneous combustion make fuel tanks (incl. Flamer tanks, plasma tanks and melta tanks) explode ? Can it make a weapons magazin or grenades go off ?? If so, this should be mentioned

10.) In general I liked the beta1's way of phenomena risks better than the new betas way

1.) Some risk at fettered level would be more interesting than no risk at all

2.) the power trees feel too restrictive (maybe rather go with aptitdes like talents ?)

3.) there are psy powers that feel like doubles and should be consolidated; especially Foreboding/Forewarning and Prescience/Precognition in Divination

4.) I liked the different sustaining costs in beta1 and also the different phenomena tables per discipline

5.) A sidebar with rules to play an astropath would be nice

6.) Telepathic Link should be split into Mindscan and Telepathy (currently it feels odd and hard to balance in its difficulty)

7.) Missing the following powers from DH1 very much:

> Dowsing

> Soul Sight

> Psychic Blade

> Cellular Control (as in DH1)

> some of the minor powers (Wall Walk, White Noise, Call Item, Fearful Aura, Distort Vision)

8.) Can manipulate flame stop flamers/meltas to work ? If yes, maybe thats worth mentioning

9.) Can spontaneous combustion make fuel tanks (incl. Flamer tanks, plasma tanks and melta tanks) explode ? Can it make a weapons magazin or grenades go off ?? If so, this should be mentioned

10.) In general I liked the beta1's way of phenomena risks better than the new betas way

This pretty much ties up with my group's feelings on Psi - the main problem we've found is with the removal of the minor powers psykers have become less useful outside of direct combat. There is very little for the sneaky side of Psi as far as I could see and my players havn't found it either.

Perhaps an extra "Utility" discipline tree is needed?

Regards

Surak

1.) Some risk at fettered level would be more interesting than no risk at all

2.) the power trees feel too restrictive (maybe rather go with Aptitudes like talents ?)

4.) I liked the different sustaining costs in beta1 and also the different phenomena tables per discipline

10.) In general I liked the beta1's way of phenomena risks better than the new betas way

I totally agree with these and my gaming group is with me.

Also, we miss the following psychic powers: Ghost Hand/Precision Telekinesis, Shackle Soul, Torch, Dowsing and Call Flame. Oh, and Beast Master.

Good suggestions overall. The suggestion of a "utility" discipline including previous minor powers that give extra utility is really good. Perhaps this utility discipline can only be used at Fettered power levels, to represent its low power scale, too?

I'd say one thing that slightly bothers me from a mechanics point of view is how the focus power is tied to opposed rolls. With the bonuses to the roll from Psi Rating, it means that most opposed rolls will go to the pysker's side, specially at high levels. This has been an issue in previous versions of the 40K RPG's, and I unfortunately don't see it changing if it's kept this way.

I have not been much around since the previous incarnation of the beta was torpedoed, but I have to agree with the sentiment that limited flexibility is dull. The flip side is that too much flexibility outshines most other characters specializations and skills.

One way I have compromised is by having psyker characters describe psychic actions, particularly minor ones, but roll a more conventional skill test for them. This can also work in more major cases as flavour.

An example would be the psyker in my current campaign that frequently describes bullets as bouncing off a telekinetic shield or shots mysteriously missing when his defenses or evade rolls succeed.

If you are willing to risk the aforementioned balance issues rolling a skill check for a minor action, say willpower + charm for a minor disposition change created by mental manipulation or willpower + security for telekinetically picking a lock worked well enough in the first beta.

These are judgement calls and workarounds more than suggested fixes, but they did a lot to alleviate the loss of the minor powers feel.

Eisenhorn, Patience Kys, and Ravenor are all extensively defined by minor psychic actions in the course of operating as much as by cataclysmic powers.

Patience writes a note by rearranging pores on her skin and Eisenhorn distracts sentries by enhancing their paranoia. This is what makes being a psyker cool. Shooting lightning is super fun, but not mechanically that much different than walking around with guns. Obviously risk and such can fiddle with the experience. But if you are nothing but a gunslinger who blows himself up on a bad roll that is more than a little underwhelming to me.

Also, can we have a mind duel between bodyless psykers as a high end option? Always wanted this assuming its dynamic and not just a simple roll off...

Patience writes a note by rearranging pores on her skin and Eisenhorn distracts sentries by enhancing their paranoia. This is what makes being a psyker cool. Shooting lightning is super fun, but not mechanically that much different than walking around with guns. Obviously risk and such can fiddle with the experience. But if you are nothing but a gunslinger who blows himself up on a bad roll that is more than a little underwhelming to me.

Also, can we have a mind duel between bodyless psykers as a high end option? Always wanted this assuming its dynamic and not just a simple roll off...

Sooooo muchhh thissss

The powers feel like a wet fart compared to Vanila DH. What happened to willpower bonus being used for something. What is the point in playing a psyker if all you're doing is shooting invisible (crap/dodgable) mind bullets and throwing mental Molotovs at people. They need more " WITNES YOUR DOOM!!! "

Good suggestions overall. The suggestion of a "utility" discipline including previous minor powers that give extra utility is really good. Perhaps this utility discipline can only be used at Fettered power levels, to represent its low power scale, too?

I'd say one thing that slightly bothers me from a mechanics point of view is how the focus power is tied to opposed rolls. With the bonuses to the roll from Psi Rating, it means that most opposed rolls will go to the pysker's side, specially at high levels. This has been an issue in previous versions of the 40K RPG's, and I unfortunately don't see it changing if it's kept this way.

I think that the opposed roll is meant to go towards the psyker , they are the ones using their minds as a weapon and are trained at it , no ?

I have not been much around since the previous incarnation of the beta was torpedoed, but I have to agree with the sentiment that limited flexibility is dull. The flip side is that too much flexibility outshines most other characters specializations and skills.

One way I have compromised is by having psyker characters describe psychic actions, particularly minor ones, but roll a more conventional skill test for them. This can also work in more major cases as flavour.

An example would be the psyker in my current campaign that frequently describes bullets as bouncing off a telekinetic shield or shots mysteriously missing when his defenses or evade rolls succeed.

If you are willing to risk the aforementioned balance issues rolling a skill check for a minor action, say willpower + charm for a minor disposition change created by mental manipulation or willpower + security for telekinetically picking a lock worked well enough in the first beta.

These are judgement calls and workarounds more than suggested fixes, but they did a lot to alleviate the loss of the minor powers feel.

Eisenhorn, Patience Kys, and Ravenor are all extensively defined by minor psychic actions in the course of operating as much as by cataclysmic powers.

Patience writes a note by rearranging pores on her skin and Eisenhorn distracts sentries by enhancing their paranoia. This is what makes being a psyker cool. Shooting lightning is super fun, but not mechanically that much different than walking around with guns. Obviously risk and such can fiddle with the experience. But if you are nothing but a gunslinger who blows himself up on a bad roll that is more than a little underwhelming to me.

Also, can we have a mind duel between bodyless psykers as a high end option? Always wanted this assuming its dynamic and not just a simple roll off...

I agree with you a lot.

A minor / utility / whatever tree would be a really really good addition.

"Bodyless" Psykers would be great, maybe with a Divination power ? Being able to leave your body like Ravenour did ?

I always missed that...

Perhaps if fettered only went wahoony shaped on a 100 or something...that could work to not truly negate risk with psychic powers...

"Bodyless" Psykers would be great, maybe with a Divination power ? Being able to leave your body like Ravenour did ?

I always missed that...

A Divination Astral Projection power comes to mind.

Would be a possible solution, yes.

I must say that, despite all the minor quibbles and suggestions, which I think are all of them very good, the mains points we are looking for are:

Returning the Psychic Phenomenah to a more personalized state

Reviewing the powers

Giving more flexibility to the system.

I must say, though, that I agree very much with utility powers, but disagree with an utility tree. I believe that would be a very "gamey" decision, whereas dividing the trees in types of psychic powers makes a lot more sense setting-wise.

Gaunt, to your question 9, I would say very much Yes, but I don't think, regarding Question 8, that a pyrokinetics lower than a high beta class would be able to stop a melta blast...

Regarding 5, I'd love me some Astropaths, but I believe it should be an Elite Advance by itself, as they feel very different from usual psykers in all the fluff I've read, at least.

Regarding 8: it could be tied to PR.

> PR 2+ can stop a flamer from working

> PR 4+ can stop Plasma
> PR 6+ can stop Meltas

Regarding 8: it could be tied to PR.

> PR 2+ can stop a flamer from working

> PR 4+ can stop Plasma

> PR 6+ can stop Meltas

Hmmm...

It's an idea...

Maybe a roll on the power with a penalty depending on the intensity?

This would make it work not only for weapons, but other kinds of flames...

I don't think it should work for plasma, maybe, as it may be a little of a stretch to consider plasma as flame, seeing as it is a different state of matter.

Plasma is no flame. But isnt it a kind of heated up material ? If the upheating is blocked, the plasma would be useless ?

Or how does plasma work ?

As far as I know , Plasma is a state the a particular element is in. So the list goes solid , liquid , gas and plasma ? Don't quote me on this though.

As for astropaths , I don't think they would make a good addition to the game as a PC choice. They are a very very very very VERY specialized type of psyker , their training focuses on melding of two minds to intercept messages and endurance. At least that's what I got from reading all the 40k books.

They go into a bit of detail on this in "The outcast dead" book.

Just a note, Astral Projection is most certainly Telepathy, and not Divination. It even exists already as two different powers in DH and Ascension. And I would love to have it back

Plasma is no flame. But isnt it a kind of heated up material ? If the upheating is blocked, the plasma would be useless ?

Or how does plasma work ?

Technically, a flame is a plasma, if you want to be strict about it.

As far as I know , Plasma is a state the a particular element is in. So the list goes solid , liquid , gas and plasma ? Don't quote me on this though.

A plasma is matter heated to such a degree that electrons stanrt spontaneously seperating from the atomic orbitals and move about independently. Now as those of you who payed attention in school probably know, (visible) light is (mostly) emitted when electrons more from orbital to another, where the second orbital has a lower energy. The difference in energy is emitted as a photon, which is to say, light*.

So a flame is technically a plasma which we see because electrons leave their atoms and later re-unite with them (or some other atom), thus moving into an orbital with a lower energy, meaning photons are emitted.

For whatever that 's worth.

Applying real science to 40k weapons is a quick way to rack up some major insanity points. I wouldn't recommend it.

Just a note, Astral Projection is most certainly Telepathy, and not Divination. It even exists already as two different powers in DH and Ascension. And I would love to have it back

Indeed, I bow to you wisdow on this one, it is a TP power.

My bad.

We all think it should return, however!

As well as some propper TK, I would say.

So...was that a "yes" to "manipulate flame" being able to stop plasma guns from being used ?

Cool moment when the pyromancer smiles in your face while you pull the trigger and realize it wont help.

Applying real science to 40k weapons is a quick way to rack up some major insanity points. I wouldn't recommend it.

But remember: "Only the Insane have Strength enough to Prosper".

Plasma is no flame. But isnt it a kind of heated up material ? If the upheating is blocked, the plasma would be useless ?

Or how does plasma work ?

Technically, a flame is a plasma, if you want to be strict about it.

As far as I know , Plasma is a state the a particular element is in. So the list goes solid , liquid , gas and plasma ? Don't quote me on this though.

A plasma is matter heated to such a degree that electrons stanrt spontaneously seperating from the atomic orbitals and move about independently. Now as those of you who payed attention in school probably know, (visible) light is (mostly) emitted when electrons more from orbital to another, where the second orbital has a lower energy. The difference in energy is emitted as a photon, which is to say, light*.

So a flame is technically a plasma which we see because electrons leave their atoms and later re-unite with them (or some other atom), thus moving into an orbital with a lower energy, meaning photons are emitted.

For whatever that 's worth.

And that, kids, is why I went to law school!

Jokes aside, what are your thoughts on PK and plasma, then?

As far as I know , Plasma is a state the a particular element is in. So the list goes solid , liquid , gas and plasma ? Don't quote me on this though.

As for astropaths , I don't think they would make a good addition to the game as a PC choice. They are a very very very very VERY specialized type of psyker , their training focuses on melding of two minds to intercept messages and endurance. At least that's what I got from reading all the 40k books.

They go into a bit of detail on this in "The outcast dead" book.

Yeah, they explain a lot about them in the Shira Calpurnia series as well. There are, however, the Astropath Transcendants, from RT, who can overcome most of the frailty inherent to their condition.

I believe it should be quite rare to have an Astropath in the group, but could be an interesting option as an elite, not just a TP power..

Is there any reason why there is absolutely no mention of Willpower Bonus in any power at all ?

Good suggestions overall. The suggestion of a "utility" discipline including previous minor powers that give extra utility is really good. Perhaps this utility discipline can only be used at Fettered power levels, to represent its low power scale, too?

I'd say one thing that slightly bothers me from a mechanics point of view is how the focus power is tied to opposed rolls. With the bonuses to the roll from Psi Rating, it means that most opposed rolls will go to the pysker's side, specially at high levels. This has been an issue in previous versions of the 40K RPG's, and I unfortunately don't see it changing if it's kept this way.

I think that the opposed roll is meant to go towards the psyker , they are the ones using their minds as a weapon and are trained at it , no ?

Yes and no. By virtue of having a higher willpower than the norm, it will usually go to the Psyker, and at high PR ratings, it makes it kind of a non-issue to win these contests. A Psyker with starting WP 45 (roughly, it's not so hard to get), who has increased it to +20 (so, 65), with PR 5 casting at push (+3 PR for a total of 8) is rolling the opposed roll at 95 WP vs. whatever the enemy has. Even really powerful enemies range at 55-60 in their WP scores (for example, a herald of Nurgle has 58 WP). If the bonus to the focus power test from PR wasn't included in this, the opposed roll would be 65 vs. 58. Still advantageous to the Psyker, but not quite as much as 95 vs. 58, which makes some Psychic powers too good at endgame levels.

Is there any reason why there is absolutely no mention of Willpower Bonus in any power at all ?

Because it doesn't scale properly (unlike PR, specially as soon as you toss in Unnatural Attributes), and because it puts too much emphasis on Willpower. You already use WP to cast, resist fear, overcome certain effects... Power effects being limited by PR (which cannot be increased as easily as WPB, not starts so high) is a better mechanic.

I just can't help but feel that the powers as they are in the game right now are underwhelming.