Man, the absolute last thing we need IMHO is to make Accurate weapons MORE effective.

We clearly have a heretic here.

Somebody call the Commissar.

*bam*

Seriously, the BS34 Heretek in my BC game is regularly churning out 20+ damage a hit with that thing.

The only way to limit it is to keep him from aiming effectively (Suppressing Fire is my friend). In which case the long las is a glorified stub revolver.

Meltas are specialty anti-vehicular, ant-bunker weapons (and they are lackluster in any other role).

Newsflash: meltas are pretty mediocre against vehicles and bunkers too. It is a typical high-risk/medium-result weapon.

Meltas are specialty anti-vehicular, ant-bunker weapons (and they are lackluster in any other role).

Newsflash: meltas are pretty mediocre against vehicles and bunkers too. It is a typical high-risk/medium-result weapon.

You think? Against a Chimera's side armor a melta (at short range) will kill the tank in two hits on average. (I mean in Only War, not TT).

That's a rifle-sized weapon.

Though I think the multimelta will perform similarly (hmmm, average damage 27, Pen 24 brings armour to 0, 35 Structural Integrity... yup same result).

High risk, yes. Getting close to a tank...

Meltas should have Pen15 (which doubles to a 30 when close) to make them fulfil their function better

Then again, due to how Degrees of Success work and how easy it is to hit a vehicle at close range, average damage is likely to be a bit higher than just average dice roll + modifier.

And various Talents will make it quite nasty,

I think 2 hits to take out a medium vehicle on average is fine. You don't want it destroying the thing most of the time in one hit.

Random thought: What if DoS also added 1 damage for each degree?

But two Melta-hits on close range means that whatever you target has a chance to shoot back at you.

If it is a heavy stubber on the top of the chimera, your second melta shot will never come...

If such a weapon fires on you on short distance or even point blank, this poses a big risk.

Thats one downside of using a melta.

Random thought: What if DoS also added 1 damage for each degree?

would maybe be too much (and even better than the current assassin special ability).

I would have liked something like that for called shots.

Random thought: What if DoS also added 1 damage for each degree?

As a thought, what about tying DoS to Pen? Have a minimum Pen for each weapon +DoS.

But two Melta-hits on close range means that whatever you target has a chance to shoot back at you.

If it is a heavy stubber on the top of the chimera, your second melta shot will never come...

That's if the heavy stubber hits you and kills you.

Sure it should have a chance to shoot back at you. It's supposed to be a combat, not "boom! you're dead"

EDIT: a bog-standard only war guardsman in a tank moving at 1x tac speed has a BS35 + 10 (aim) + 10 (short range) = 55 - 10 (full auto) - 10 (tank moved) = 35% chance to hit you. He probably won't.

That's assuming he's facing in your direction and doesn't have to turn his pintle-mounted weapon, which would get rid of the aim.

And what do you guess is the primary target for a crew if they realize a guy with a melta jumps onto them ? ;D

*bam*

Much obliged, good sir.

Seriously, the BS34 Heretek in my BC game is regularly churning out 20+ damage a hit with that thing.

The only way to limit it is to keep him from aiming effectively (Suppressing Fire is my friend). In which case the long las is a glorified stub revolver.

I kid, I kid, my bad, couldn't resist. =)

But honestly, despite having had the same "problem" in OW (my group's sniper was a killing machine), do you really see that as a bad thing? You gave it a solution by yourself. A sniper rifle, despite being a deadly weapon, requires setting up, aiming, a whole preparation before firing. It i's an assassin weapon, and bears no competition in this area. However, in a chaotic street gunfire, my friend, you will have a big problem just setting it up, much less firing it.

As a thought, what about tying DoS to Pen? Have a minimum Pen for each weapon +DoS.

I actually think it works perfectly with Attack DoS vs Defense DoS.

I like the damage idea but it seems OP, and the other seems very complicated, don't you think?

I can't really give much of an opinion regarding meltas, because I think their damage works as is. What I would do is drastically remove their range. As a friend of mine once said while playing Space Marine, the melta is, after all, more of a melee weapon than a gun.

Make the sniper rifle a heavy weapon and its fine (needs bracing).

Meltas already have quite a short range, especially if you want to double your Pen.

Make the sniper rifle a heavy weapon and its fine (needs bracing).

Meltas already have quite a short range, especially if you want to double your Pen.

The idea about the snipers could work very well, really.

Man, the absolute last thing we need IMHO is to make Accurate weapons MORE effective.

There are a lot of weapons that fire single shot that do not have Accurate. In a system where DoS are used for nearly everything I really do not understand why they should not apply to single shot, non-Accurate weapons.

That's why we need DoS from the shot to count against Dodge DoS

I'm really hoping FFG gives some indication on which way they intend to go on this before week 4. Almost everyone here thinks this was one of the good changes from the first beta. Sadly, given the new talent presented in the week 2 beta, my guess is they're sticking with what they have (as going back would render their new talent pointless).

Man, the absolute last thing we need IMHO is to make Accurate weapons MORE effective.

There are a lot of weapons that fire single shot that do not have Accurate. In a system where DoS are used for nearly everything I really do not understand why they should not apply to single shot, non-Accurate weapons.

That's why we need DoS from the shot to count against Dodge DoS

I'm really hoping FFG gives some indication on which way they intend to go on this before week 4. Almost everyone here thinks this was one of the good changes from the first beta. Sadly, given the new talent presented in the week 2 beta, my guess is they're sticking with what they have (as going back would render their new talent pointless).

I agree 100% on both counts, particularly in the point that the vast majority of the people here would like to see the DoS system back.

They can just remove the talent, I would think.

They can just remove the talent, I would think.

I hope they do, but I think the fact that they included it at all is a pretty strong indication of how they're leaning on this issue (and it's not the way I'd like them to). This is exactly the kind of thing where an increased FFG presence on these forums would help direct the conversation for the better.

Standard attack DoS need some love - opposing Evasion is the way to go !

Skip the new talent and bring back some old missing flavourful talents instead from DH1: Paranoia, Orthoproxy, Light Sleeper, Armour of Contempt, Decadence).

And what do you guess is the primary target for a crew if they realize a guy with a melta jumps onto them ? ;D

I don't get this objection. Of course it's dangerous. It's supposed to be a dangerous combat and a risky game. Don't get hit, have lots of cover, like when you're fighting anything with a heavy weapon. BTW the crew doesn't have a greater chance to hit you than the stubber guy does. (Unless it's a hellhound; don't do it with that )).

Or. better yet... do what a real military would do and have TWO guys with meltas!

Anyway as it works, a melta will take out a light vehicle in one hit (usually) such as a Sentinel, a medium vehicle in two, a heavy vehicle in three or more. Simple gradation. What's the problem?

You think? Against a Chimera's side armor a melta (at short range) will kill the tank in two hits on average. (I mean in Only War, not TT).

Since you can fire your meltagun only once per turn, what do you think, how many ways that Chimera will kill you after your first melta shot? Better yet, there is no way you can one-shot a Chimera with a meltagun, so you have to wither one round of Multilaser/Heavy Bolter/Heavy Flamer/Autocannon fire to get the job done. Or better yet, the Chimera first drives away (so you can't get into range next turn) and then puts some holes into you.

You know what I would like to see added?

Armour in this game is garbage, because it always fails to stop you taking damage, even when it is not penetrated by the weapon being used.

Meaning so long as the damage roll is high enough, whether the weapons pen is sufficient to reduce your AP to zero or not, you still take damage.

And that is not how Armour works, period, let alone in 40k where Armour gives a save percentile to totally negate wounds being taken.

And for all the pro remove TB damage soak, this is the one way you could actually sell me on the idea, make Armour have a chance to stop damage if the weapon doesn't penetrate it, and I will sing the song of remove TB soak totally from DH.

It would also justify some extension to the half a page we get on Armour compared to the complete sections of book on weapons.

In any system Weapons and Armour are usually close to each other, because that is how we advance and design things, and it is a sorely lacking part of this game. Everything from skills to talents is designed around being offensive, with dodge/parry and a few talents the defensive side, it is a very very skewed system, and until Armour actually starts working as a total damage stopper....the game needs TB soak, it is the cheap fix.

A flat % chance to take zero damage from weapons that do not penetrate, with different tiers of armour giving different % chances, kind of how fields work currently but with the proviso if your armour is reduced to zero by weapon pen, you take full damage, this would make plasma weaponry deadly again.

Also you could allow unnatural toughness to allow TB to be applied to damage taken, thus making SM as tough as they should be, without them becoming immune to damage due to high TB because of UT, so instead of being a multiplier, or adding +TB, it just allows damage reduction instead, and everyone without UT, doesn't get to apply TB to damage.

You can also port the rule from shadowrun - making called shot to bypass armour - shooting in unprotected areas, like face etc.

The rule would state that you can take penalty to lower target armour. -10 penalty for decreasing the armour by 1.

Also I would like to see shots in the head deal more damage. We houseruled that hits in the head deal 2 more damage, and hits in the body 1 more damage. Grimdark deadlines all the way. **** train has no breaks etc

Also I would like to see shots in the head deal more damage. We houseruled that hits in the head deal 2 more damage, and hits in the body 1 more damage. Grimdark deadlines all the way. **** train has no breaks etc

They actually do because the Head Critical Effects tables are one or two steps deadlier compared to the others. It is effectively the same as causing more damage to the Head.