Pen 6 is enough to cut through any regular armour, and does not leave much of power armour either.

With 3d10 damage you have a dangerous, yet unpredictable weapon from the old ages.

And needing an Ag-Test to drop it if overheating makes it a risk to be calculated well.

On average, such a weapon would make 16 damage with Pen 6 and a high chance on RF.

I think a Pen of 10 or so would be totally reasonable, honestly. Plasma utterly demolishes basically anything person sized, and can pose a reasonable threat to monstrous creatures and lighter vehicles, at the same time.

Melta is made to crack open the hard stuff. Like, Land Raider level armour. It's silly to consider it when talking about anti-personnel weapons.

Pen10 would mean that power armour doesnt help at all. I agree that it doesnt help much, but it should at least provide a little bit more protection than being naked.

Plasma easily slags Terminator armour, though. And can blow up a Rhino or a Dread on a good day.

Plasma guns are the man sized tin openers of 40k. They are also sufficiently rare and temperamental that they simply can't be in common usage either.

Power Armour does provide protection. Against virtually everything else except dedicated anti-vehicular weaponry.

3d10 damage, Pen7 (6 for pistols) and a needed ag-test for overheat. My last offer ! ;D

And maybe the rarity should differ from Bolters

Rarity should definitely be a step higher than bolters, I'd say.

Rarity should definitely be a step higher than bolters, I'd say.

Indeed! Especially as they don't semi-mass produce them the way they do boltguns. As far as I'm aware, Plasma weapons (possibly even plasma tech itself) is the jealously guarded purview of a very small number of Forge Worlds. And we all know how the AdMech feels about sharing...

Dont set the Pen too high - they shouldnt fill the Meltas place.

They're already kinda competing there I think.

But then, meltas seem a little weak.

Meltas should be well into the double digits, pen wise. I'd say something like 12 (so 24 at close range) would make sense. That breaks through a Leman Russ' entire rear armour and then some, but leaves a decent amount on the front.

If you touch Accurate in any way, my sniper player will have to shoot you dead.

Apart from that, those are some great touches!

All right, thats enough!

Plasma should have Pen 8, to easily cut though regular power armour. If a space marine will get hit in the chest, then his armour will protect him a little bit. BUT on the maximal +1d10 dmg, and +4 PEN. Then would deal 2d10+8, Pen 12. Quite capable of harming Ork Trukk or chimera fromb behind.

@Gaunt - they wouldn't go for 3d10, because they tend to lower the number of dice rolled. Also 1d10+whatever make the plasma more predictable, to deal steady high damage. Also If you count the possibility of inflicting RF which works like the old one (additional 1d10 dmg), then the avarage dmg for one dice are 6,11 - 5,5 + ((0,1*5,5)*(0,1*5,5)= 5,5+0,55+0,055+0,0055 etc. So 3d10 with RF is more like 18,33 not 16 assuming all RF automaticaly pass. Which I think is not that bad thing.

All right, thats enough!

Plasma should have Pen 8, to easily cut though regular power armour. If a space marine will get hit in the chest, then his armour will protect him a little bit. BUT on the maximal +1d10 dmg, and +4 PEN. Then would deal 2d10+8, Pen 12. Quite capable of harming Ork Trukk or chimera fromb behind.

@Gaunt - they wouldn't go for 3d10, because they tend to lower the number of dice rolled. Also 1d10+whatever make the plasma more predictable, to deal steady high damage. Also If you count the possibility of inflicting RF which works like the old one (additional 1d10 dmg), then the avarage dmg for one dice are 6,11 - 5,5 + ((0,1*5,5)*(0,1*5,5)= 5,5+0,55+0,055+0,0055 etc. So 3d10 with RF is more like 18,33 not 16 assuming all RF automaticaly pass. Which I think is not that bad thing.

Great suggestion, IMHO.

could go with that.

Although I especially would like the 3d10's unpredictability.

The issue with 3d10 is it means 3 damage is a possibility, which is incredibly underwhelming for something that's meant to be able to slag Terminators. 2d10+8 might work better, maybe?

2d10+8 is ok if you dont raise the Pen

If you also raise the pen it outshines the bolter way too much. It would make the plasma gun better than bolter + melter combined.

2d10+6, Pen 7 and an ag-test needed to avoid damage if overheating sounds like a balanced way to go.

The melta still would penetrate better, even if not on short range and has higher damage, but needs to get much closer and cannot shoot on maximal.

The bolter is weaker than the plasma both in damage and pen, but bears less risk. It should be 1 step less rare than the plasma though.

If you touch Accurate in any way, my sniper player will have to shoot you dead.

Apart from that, those are some great touches!

I'm actually trying to make the sniper more functional.

Meltas are specialty anti-vehicular, ant-bunker weapons (and they are lackluster in any other role). Their Pen comes into play when you are shooting something with an AP of 20+. Plasma is heavy infantry. Giving it a Pen of 10 will not step on the melta's toes because the melta is not intended for use against infantry period and a Pen of 10 against a vehicle, other than a very light one, does little.

Hmmm just like TT.

2d10+8 Pen 10 is coincidentally exactly what plasma guns do in BC IIRC.

Come to think of it, I think this debate is wrong-headed, since AFAIKT it is trying to balance meltas vs. plasma within the context of the DH setting, and thus against personal armour (since DH characters are going to go up against such opponents). But meltas really have no place in the DH setting. They're a weapon with an exclusively military function (and one that only makes sense in the unrealistically short-range world of 40K TT) -- destroying armoured vehicles. There is no reason for an Acolyte to use one in 99.5% of cases, unless there is some need to destroy a bunker and you can't use meltabombs for some reason. Plasma goes through personal armour just as easily. In fact bolters are more effective than plasma in 90% of cases in DH, given that it is rare to go up against somebody kitted out in power armour..

Let me put it this way.

I have played 3 (three) long campaigns in Dark Heresy, and I, nor any other player ever ever used any plasma weapon because they where so bad.

In Rogue Trader our Astropath, and Rogue Trader used Wrath Plasma pistol, because of increased damage, but no one used basic plasma gun (clovis 1d10+5 heheh, try boltgun instead (or better, storm bolter, same aquisition)).

We skipped the Deathwatch, but pre errata damage to plasma, made it so weak, that only brain damaged DA hardcore psychofans would consider using it over bolter. Post errata dmg is ok, equal to BC.

After the buff in BC, my apostate used two plasma pistols, and they were OK on some light stuff, you really had to try to kill a necron warrior.

Now we play OW, where plasmas had been nerfed again, and no one ever thought of getting them. They all requisition long lases, because of the accurate bonus.

Plasma dealing less than 1d10+8 is ****, and no one will ever take it. Lets introduce the stats from BC where basic plasma deals 1d10+10, and pistol 1d10+8, and no one will complain. Otherwise it will be dual bolt pistols with inferno shells.

Oh and yeah, give inferno shells overheats, and unreliable, as in the first beta.

I find long lases (or any weapon that can only be fired single shot) to be very disappointing due to the ease of dodging them.

I thought OW plasma and BC were about the same.

That's why we need DoS from the shot to count against Dodge DoS

That's why we need DoS from the shot to count against Dodge DoS

Yes !

You want to make Accurate weapons MORE powerful?

To be honest if somebody takes the time to aim the target should gain a BONUS to Dodge, seeing as he has more time to react.

I'm actually trying to make the sniper more functional.

If you touch Accurate in any way, my sniper player will have to shoot you dead.

Apart from that, those are some great touches!

Now that's a good man!

That's why we need DoS from the shot to count against Dodge DoS

Yes !

I've GMed most of the WH40K games (except for BC) and I've used this system in all of my games. I must admit that I only noticed that it left the official rules after I started spending some of my work hours in the lovely company of you gentlemen.

It is so superior, both in terms of rules and drama, that I can't even consider the possibility of just having a simple success in a dodge supersede a hit with five degrees of success.

That said, I use it for my players when they dodge attacks from mooks.

Rules-wise, you could consider having full access to degrees of success in attacks as another perk of being an elite or having the "touched by fate" trait.

Man, the absolute last thing we need IMHO is to make Accurate weapons MORE effective.