1.) Maybe it should be considered to let accurate bonus damage trigger RF

2.) Toxic should deal its damage (or toxic effect in general) 1 turn later to give players a chance to use detox (would finally make detox something useful); also it could make sense to impose +1 damage for each DoF at the targets toughness test

3.) Felling should half the Toughness Bonus if the target does not have Unn.Toughness (otherwise its completely useless against non-Unnn-Toughness targets) or reduce Toughness by its X-value

4.) I would love the weapon traits Overcharge (X) and Close Quarters to return (non-Close Quarter Weapons should trigger an attack of opportunity kind of thing in melee)

5.) Maybe there is a way to differ light from Heavy melee weapons; the beta1 differed them nicely

6.) 1 or 2 additional arrows for bow & crossbow would be nice and make them somehow usefull maybe (Mono-Arrows ? Tox-Arrows ?); explosive arrows shouldnt give -10 on the attack or get another benefet (Tearing ? Blast (1) ?) - otherwise they are too weak

7.) Shocking should be re-worked to differ more from concussive (should deal fatigue); also, the beta1's fatigue system should return - it had much more flavour

8.) Dumdum bullets need a little buff (or should be easier to get)

9.) Carrying capacities are unrealistic high - they should belowered 1 step

10.) Armour should get agility caps again

11.) did I see it right that there are no toxins to buy ? a handful of toxins to buy would be nice (and also a rulebox how to use toxins with weapons correctly, with and without a dispenser, with and without the toxic trait on the weapon)

12.) Cybernetic limit should return (and include limbs); those who posess Mechanicus Implants should have this limit increased

13.) In the first beta (Upd 3) Plasma weapons were horrible overpowered - now they almost seem a little week. Maybe buff them a little but give them more of a risk factor (needing an Ag-Test to drop them in time if overheating ?) ? And make them more rare than Bolters please.

14.) some more armour options would be nice; I also liked the idea of beta1 to make "armour packages" instead of building together ones armour from pieces

15.) Flexible weapons shouldnt be able to parry

16.) Power FIeld weapons should damage armour when making a hit

17.) The Needle Rifle could use Felling (2) instead of Felling (1) to make it more competitive or give needle weapons a more deadly standard toxin

18.) The sniper rifle should become a heavy weapon (needs to be braced with a bipod or similar) and get 2d10 damage to highten chance on RF

19.) Scatter should include Blast (1) on long and extreme ranges

1.) Maybe it should be considered to let accurate bonus damage trigger RF

Agreed. That wierd little bit never made sense to me.

Accurate weapons were intended to allow at least the potential of a one shot kill! That was a BIG complaint with Sniper rifles in DH21b. The rules as they are now have worked for some time (They originated in RT). So with respect, I disagree there.

A lot of the other stuff I agree with.

BTW, Pistols are the only ranged weapons that can be fired in melee. That's RAW on pg. 111.

# 10.) Yes, Yes, Yes! I've never understood why they didn't in the first place!

# 13.) Underpowered! Really? What would you suggest? It's already the second most powerful weapon in the game (After Melta's).

Accurate weapons were intended to allow at least the potential of a one shot kill! That was a BIG complaint with Sniper rifles in DH21b. The rules as they are now have worked for some time (They originated in RT). So with respect, I disagree there.

A lot of the other stuff I agree with.

BTW, Pistols are the only ranged weapons that can be fired in melee. That's RAW on pg. 111.

# 10.) Yes, Yes, Yes! I've never understood why they didn't in the first place!

# 13.) Underpowered! Really? What would you suggest? It's already the second most powerful weapon in the game (After Melta's).

I usually compare plasma with my ol' favourite, the bolter.

Plamsa should fluff-wise be more dangerous than the bolter, but not significantly enough to create imbalances.

A boltgun does 1d10+5 P4 Tearing

A Plasma Gun does 1d10+7 P6 Maximal, Overheat

The tearing is about to compensate for the damage difference, that means Plasma has 2 more Pen and the option on Max on its side, but suffers from Overheat and an immense weight to carry.

The bolter though has a higher chance on RF through Tearing and he has a better RoF (Semi with 3 instead of 2).

The little more range for the bolter is cancelled out by the bigger clip size of the plasmagun (which in both cases is big enough not to be too critical anyway).

So:

Plasma:

+ 2 more Pen

+ Maximum Option

- Overheat

- weight

Bolter:

+ higher RF chance

+ better RoF

Weighting the benefits a little, I still can see the Plasmagun slighly ahead, but a little more buffing it would be nice, alongside with a higher risk to make it feel unique.

Why not make Overheat even a little more dangerous, but the damage more varied (3d10 like in beta1?)

IMHO, most weapons can use a little damage boost. +1-2 to autguns/lasguns, +2-3 to bolt weapons and +4-5 (or even +1D10) to plasma/melta weapons. It is kinda' ridiculous that an autocannon does more damage on average than a meltagun...

I think the general damage level is quite fine. Small adjustments would be enough to be made.

If armour would have more restrictions (carrying weight, ag cap) this would also have an indirect effect.

12.) Cybernetic limit should return (and include limbs); those who posess Mechanicus Implants should have this limit increased

Where was Cybernetic Limit? I might have some need of it in a game I'm running.

Beta1 had a limit to it - max. no was Toughness Bonus.

Maybe a good rule would be: If you get more than Toughness Bonus Cybernetics, you suffer 1d10 Insanity each time you do.

Beta1 had a limit to it - max. no was Toughness Bonus.

Maybe a good rule would be: If you get more than Toughness Bonus Cybernetics, you suffer 1d10 Insanity each time you do.

I like this rule quite a bit.

Yeah, I'm a fan too. I will say that I think it should exclude cybernetic replacements; I'd rather not penalise people too hard for just returning their bodies to usual functionality, and the TB limit can still be pretty restricting even if you only have it apply to implant systems. Plus it makes sense from a logic standpoint; your body's going to be a lot more likely to reject entirely new systems than ones that emulate normal human function.

Yeah, I'm a fan too. I will say that I think it should exclude cybernetic replacements; I'd rather not penalise people too hard for just returning their bodies to usual functionality, and the TB limit can still be pretty restricting even if you only have it apply to implant systems. Plus it makes sense from a logic standpoint; your body's going to be a lot more likely to reject entirely new systems than ones that emulate normal human function.

And there comes the day when you have so many cybernetics that your sanity suffers.

1.) Maybe it should be considered to let accurate bonus damage trigger RF

2.) Toxic should deal its damage (or toxic effect in general) 1 turn later to give players a chance to use detox (would finally make detox something useful)

3.) Felling should half the Toughness Bonus if the target does not have Unn.Toughness (otherwise its completely useless against non-Unnn-Toughness targets)

4.) I would love the weapon traits Overcharge (X) and Close Quarters to return (non-Close Quarter Weapons should trigger an attack of opportunity kind of thing in melee)

5.) Maybe there is a way to differ light from Heavy melee weapons; the beta1 differed them nicely

6.) 1 or 2 additional arrows for bow & crossbow would be nice and make them somehow usefull maybe (Mono-Arrows ? Tox-Arrows ?); explosive arrows shouldnt give -10 on the attack or get another benefet (Tearing ? Blast (1) ?) - otherwise they are too weak

7.) Shocking should be re-worked to differ more from concussive (should deal fatigue); also, the beta1's fatigue system should return - it had much more flavour

8.) Dumdum bullets need a little buff (or should be easier to get)

9.) Carrying capacities are unrealistic high - they should belowered 1 step

10.) Armour should get agility caps again

11.) did I see it right that there are no toxins to buy ? a handful of toxins to buy would be nice (and also a rulebox how to use toxins with weapons correctly, with and without a dispenser, with and without the toxic trait on the weapon)

12.) Cybernetic limit should return (and include limbs); those who posess Mechanicus Implants should have this limit increased

13.) In the first beta (Upd 3) Plasma weapons were horrible overpowered - now they almost seem a little week. Maybe buff them a little but give them more of a risk factor ?

14.) some more armour options would be nice; I also liked the idea of beta1 to make "armour packages" instead of building together ones armour from pieces

1. I'd rather turn it generally into a function of the hit roll, maybe with bonus dice expanding the trigger range to model that sweet headshot feeling

2. Nice idea. Even quick agents should have some delay.

3. Signed.

4. Define Pistol class with global Close Quarters. Also a suitable disadvantage for Light Weapons might be -20 to hit, -20 to evade next round, -30/-30 for Heavy Weapons just to model the possibility in a pinch.

5. No multiple attacks with Heavy Melee?

6. Make the weapons useful in the first place. They have no range, no damage, no rate of fire and no real bonus except for being silent. At least the crossbow must deal more damage and have mre range with 2 full rounds to reload. Explosive arrows should really do some diddely to be viable and lower range. Modified high-tech arrows with Mono or so. No fear to make them actually useful! Also one could mount small devices on them. Like scramblers, transmitters, microphones, etc.

7. A bit more of a difference would be nice. Maybe a special effect.

8. As the only one among the simple damage effects with a downside, that's a good point. Also Manstoppers should be renamed to Armor Piercing. Because that's what they do.

9. I like carrying stuff. All the stuff.

10. Please! Downsides to decking oneself out in armor!

11. Signed.

12. Signed.

13. A step system weighing damage against volatility, maybe?

14. One could tie them in with Subtlety? Heavy armor is not exactly subtle.

5. No multiple attacks with Heavy Melee?

Most large heavy weapons already have the Unwieldy or Unbalanced rule, which has negatives to parry and prevents them from making Lightning Attacks.

I like the idea to put a subtlety penalty on heavy armour (and rare weaponry ?) - should an official rule.

Works for me.

Thoughts on low-tech weapons?

I think they are severly underrepresented.

1.) Maybe it should be considered to let accurate bonus damage trigger RF

2.) Toxic should deal its damage (or toxic effect in general) 1 turn later to give players a chance to use detox (would finally make detox something useful)

3.) Felling should half the Toughness Bonus if the target does not have Unn.Toughness (otherwise its completely useless against non-Unnn-Toughness targets)

4.) I would love the weapon traits Overcharge (X) and Close Quarters to return (non-Close Quarter Weapons should trigger an attack of opportunity kind of thing in melee)

5.) Maybe there is a way to differ light from Heavy melee weapons; the beta1 differed them nicely

6.) 1 or 2 additional arrows for bow & crossbow would be nice and make them somehow usefull maybe (Mono-Arrows ? Tox-Arrows ?); explosive arrows shouldnt give -10 on the attack or get another benefet (Tearing ? Blast (1) ?) - otherwise they are too weak

7.) Shocking should be re-worked to differ more from concussive (should deal fatigue); also, the beta1's fatigue system should return - it had much more flavour

8.) Dumdum bullets need a little buff (or should be easier to get)

9.) Carrying capacities are unrealistic high - they should belowered 1 step

10.) Armour should get agility caps again

11.) did I see it right that there are no toxins to buy ? a handful of toxins to buy would be nice (and also a rulebox how to use toxins with weapons correctly, with and without a dispenser, with and without the toxic trait on the weapon)

12.) Cybernetic limit should return (and include limbs); those who posess Mechanicus Implants should have this limit increased

13.) In the first beta (Upd 3) Plasma weapons were horrible overpowered - now they almost seem a little week. Maybe buff them a little but give them more of a risk factor ?

14.) some more armour options would be nice; I also liked the idea of beta1 to make "armour packages" instead of building together ones armour from pieces

1. We played Accurate weapons this way in DH1 for a while because we misread the rules It wasn't pretty -- the Assassin who used the rifle killed more people than the rest of the party combined, since any RF hit was basically a guaranteed kill. I like the current Accurate rules much better from a game balance standpoint.
2. I like this idea in principle, but it does slow down combat a bit and players might forget to roll their Toxic damage at the appropriate times.
3. I'm not sure about this one -- Felling is much more useful in DH2, since a surprisingly large number of enemies have a small amount of Unnatural Toughness. I like that Felling makes certain weapons (like the long-las) especially good at killing Unnaturally Tough targets instead of just being a sniper rifle that can't use expander rounds or accept a silencer.
4. Agreed. Close-quarters in particular is a nice quality to have, since it allows the rules to represent carbines, cut-down shotguns, and other compact weapons nicely. Balance could be an issue if this quality could be applied to any ranged weapon with the Compact upgrade -- storm bolters are already good enough without being usable in CC 0_0
5. No comment
6. I liked the Hunting Crossbow from the Inquisitor's Handbook quite a lot -- it was Accurate, completely silent, and (most importantly) had the option to buy non-Primitive bolts. I would LOVE it if they made similar bolts/arrows available to all Primitive ranged weapons. Maybe there would be a Modern Materials upgrade for such weapons which allowed them to use these upgraded bolts (as well as allowing the attachment of sights, etc.
7. No comment
8. Maybe one additional point of damage would be nice, but I feel they serve their purpose (killing unarmored targets) fairly well already.
9. No comment
10. Agreed.
11. None of my players (not even the Assassin) have ever used toxins, but I do feel they should at least be included in the rulebook. The Tox Dispenser does a pretty good job of simulating deadly toxins, but sleeping darts and hallucinogenic poison would be nice to have as well.
12. I like the idea of TB as a "soft cap" on cybernetics, with an Insanity gain for additional cybernetics above that limit. Mechanicus characters should naturally have an increased limit (2xTB?).
13. Plasma weapons actually seem quite strong now. They do respectable amounts of damage in normal mode and cause destruction only equalled by melta weapons on Maximal setting. I may run another combat test examining these in more detail very soon though.
14. I loved the wider variety of armor in the first beta, as well as the increased number of armors with different AV on different locations. I'd like to see them return, though I don't know how many people will use them since you can start with Guard flak armor anyway.

Also, I 100% agree that heavy armor and big fancy weapons should penalize subtlety. It would be nice to have this written in the rules as well. If at least one person in the party carries this stuff, give the group -10 Subtlety. Wearing concealed/situation-appropriate armor (i.e. hive leathers when impersonating gangers) and carrying concealed weapons likewise gives the group +10 Subtlety. Applying the modifier on a per-player basis would make it too easy for the group to radically change their Subtlety at a moment's notice.

Works for me.

Thoughts on low-tech weapons?

I think they are severly underrepresented.

Absolutely! I don't understand how outcasts or any warrior would not know how to use knives and clubs! Instead they get chain weapons? Huh? A Hive ganger is unlikely to even see a chainsword and every soldier is taught to use a bayonet! I E-mailed this concern to Tim H. but they seem to be more worried about everyone knowing how to use swords and bows! How do we resolve this!

If I keep repeating myself about weapon proficiencies being a flawed mechanic that should be removed, will they listen? Hopefully!

Weapon proficiencies do nothing interesting for the system, they just act as an XP sink, which isn't particularly interesting. In my opinion, all non-exotic proficiencies can go, and exotic proficiencies can come as part of the associated Specialist talent/Lore skill (depending on which FFG ends up going with in the end). Want to use that fancy new Shuriken Gun? Get Forbidden Lore (Eldar).

If I keep repeating myself about weapon proficiencies being a flawed mechanic that should be removed, will they listen? Hopefully!

Weapon proficiencies do nothing interesting for the system, they just act as an XP sink, which isn't particularly interesting. In my opinion, all non-exotic proficiencies can go, and exotic proficiencies can come as part of the associated Specialist talent/Lore skill (depending on which FFG ends up going with in the end). Want to use that fancy new Shuriken Gun? Get Forbidden Lore (Eldar).

Tom, Have you ever used a weapon? (other than the obvious Sci-fi versions of course.) If you had you would realize your statement is patently false! The use of any weapon requires training to use effectively. Especially Melee weapons! Any idiot can pull a trigger but to actually hit a target (Especially on the move when the target is shooting back!) takes a good deal of practice and familiarity with the weapon in question. It's completely separate from a Lore skill in that it's a physical skill. I personally thought the RT rules were the most similar to real life but the current rules are actually more generous! I think it's perfectly valid for there to be weapon proficiencies! How they're divided up is a judgment call but I don't think the need for them is in much doubt! Personally I would do it, Pistols, Basic, Melee, Hvy weapons (By weapon) and exotics. But that's just me!

If I keep repeating myself about weapon proficiencies being a flawed mechanic that should be removed, will they listen? Hopefully!

Weapon proficiencies do nothing interesting for the system, they just act as an XP sink, which isn't particularly interesting. In my opinion, all non-exotic proficiencies can go, and exotic proficiencies can come as part of the associated Specialist talent/Lore skill (depending on which FFG ends up going with in the end). Want to use that fancy new Shuriken Gun? Get Forbidden Lore (Eldar).

Tom, Have you ever used a weapon? (other than the obvious Sci-fi versions of course.) If you had you would realize your statement is patently false! The use of any weapon requires training to use effectively. Especially Melee weapons! Any idiot can pull a trigger but to actually hit a target (Especially on the move when the target is shooting back!) takes a good deal of practice and familiarity with the weapon in question. It's completely separate from a Lore skill in that it's a physical skill. I personally thought the RT rules were the most similar to real life but the current rules are actually more generous! I think it's perfectly valid for there to be weapon proficiencies! How they're divided up is a judgment call but I don't think the need for them is in much doubt! Personally I would do it, Pistols, Basic, Melee, Hvy weapons (By weapon) and exotics. But that's just me!

You know, there is an entire characteristic entirely based on knowledge of handling weapons (either melee or ranged), right? In the name of the realism you're citing, you would need a separate talent for every similarly sized and classed weapon. Keeping in mind of course that a flame thrower is much different from an assault rifle, even if they are both basic weapons. So then you have to separate out by weapon type, with the only types being very similar to each other being Las, SP, and maybe Bolt. So you'd end up, for the sake of realism, tripling or quadrupling the number of weapon talents. Or, like you suggested, you could sacrifice realism for the sake of making more general talents based on weapon size. But, if you're doing that, why not just accept that Ballistic and Weapon skill already make that generalization for you and drop the need for all of the weapon proficiencies?

Or, I would suggest you keep a weapon proficiency for each weapon that adds a flat +10 to it. Let people specialize if they want, but have them all possess baseline efficiency. And I would be fine with penalizing the use of really exotic weapons and requiring the specialty to ignore it. Otherwise, though, the weapon specializations are, as Tom said, a Talent Tax that isn't getting any closer to realism due to still making sacrifices and as a result being redundant with the WS and BS characteristics.

I wasn't making any statements about realism Radwraith. Like Nimsim said, sacrificing weapon proficiencies is a tiny loss of realism for a pretty significant gain in streamlining, which I think is a good idea.

My general philosophy when it comes to designing advances is that, if something is basically a 'must have', it should just be granted automatically. You pretty much need to have weapon proficiency with your weapons to be able to fight remotely effectively, so they basically become an XP sink. XP sinks are incredibly dull.

Accurate weapons were intended to allow at least the potential of a one shot kill! That was a BIG complaint with Sniper rifles in DH21b. The rules as they are now have worked for some time (They originated in RT). So with respect, I disagree there.

I assume this refers to

1.) Maybe it should be considered to let accurate bonus damage trigger RF

Agreed. That wierd little bit never made sense to me.

If so. I must respectfully disagree.

It has IMAO been buggered since RT.

Allowing only a single dice to cause RF seems ... a curious choice and comes across (to me) as one purely made for reasons of 'Game Balance' while being nothing of the sort, in a game with the autofire mechanice we have in this line.

Or other multi-dice weapons for that matter.

• We played Accurate weapons this way in DH1 for a while because we misread the rules It wasn't pretty -- the Assassin who used the rifle killed more people than the rest of the party combined, since any RF hit was basically a guaranteed kill. I like the current Accurate rules much better from a game balance standpoint.

Remember that RF has changed since DH1.

Plasma weapons should be on power level of Black Crusade otherwise, they are useless.

Bolter rolls two dice, and each of them has chance of inflicting RF - his avarage damage on dies are 9,165

Plasma roll only one, with a chance of RF - so avarage roll is 6,11

bolter total 9,2 + 5 dmg = 14,2 + 4 pen = 18 dmg

plasma total 6,1 + 7 dmg = 13,1 +6 pen = less avarage damage = 19 dmg with pen, its only better on heavily armoured opponents, but only a little. Compared to the drawbacks it has, and inability to use special ammo, and the ability to use maximal, but then losing the entire next round, bolters are waay better.

BC lvl = 6,11 + 8 = 14,11 - wow, now it has damage potential only slightly lower than boltgun, but then pen 10 makes it usefull against battle servitors, power armoured enemies, or even light vechicles as it should be, as it is in fluff.

Plasma should be 1d10+8 E, Pen 10, Maximal, Overheats

Dont set the Pen too high - they shouldnt fill the Meltas place.

Make their damage 3d10 and increase the risk of Overheat by needing an Agility-Test to drop the weapon in time.

They shouldn't fill the melta's place, no. Thing is, the melta's place is in anti vehicle . For infantry it's just plain overkill. Plasma is more than enough for most infantry, power armour or no.