Q: Why do I keep thinking that I should be using WoD or GURPS to play this game?
A: In WoD you can buy 1 or 2 items (Story Tellers call) per month with a cost equal to your dots in Resources which we could use influence bonus for and every thread I see on combat has one person who knowingly or not wants to make DH into GURPS.
I still think we need some way to run resource management away from your network even if it's just use influence bonus WoD style.
How does a -50 influence penalty solve anything if they then can't buy anything? Sorry, I might of missed something, but that just seems like your players are now crippled and can't buy anything.
Being undercover doesn't change how rare things are, it just means you can't call on favours to buy them, or even buy them without attracting attention
And cps, I'm currently playing the book adventure, Seeds of Heresy, run by GauntZero.
My character came to the world without any real resources besides his guns. If I choose to go undercover, and say, head to a shop to buy something, or pull some underworld connections, what the heck is my influence representing? I have no favours, no money, the locals honestly probably don't even know what an Inquisition is, and they haven't had contact with the Imperium for 20 years.
And just bumping influence to zero doesn't work, because the system still relies on it.
Q: Why do I keep thinking that I should be using WoD or GURPS to play this game?
A: In WoD you can buy 1 or 2 items (Story Tellers call) per month with a cost equal to your dots in Resources which we could use influence bonus for and every thread I see on combat has one person who knowingly or not wants to make DH into GURPS.
I still think we need some way to run resource management away from your network even if it's just use influence bonus WoD style.
We've ruled that PCs have a number of Acquisition Points equal to their Influence Bonus.
Attempting any kind of purchase costs 1 Acquisition Point.
While attempting a purchase, PCs can spend additional Acquisition Points to modify their Acquisition Test roll. Each point spent adds +10 to the roll.
Acquisition Points are refreshed at the start of every session, exactly like Fate Points.
During downtime we've ruled PCs have a number of Requisition Points equal to their Influence Bonus and Social Status (there's a table at the start of the Armoury Chapter in the DH1e Core listing PC Social Status). These are used exactly like Acquisition Points, and are likewise refreshed whenever there's downtime.
As a "shopping rule of thumb" this works pretty great. Well enough I think FFG should consider adding something similar in the DH2 Core.
Ok I think what we need to do is find some sort of middle ground between my preferred option of dual influence and currency systems and CPS's preferred option of pure influence.
Personally I can understand the attraction of the Influence system, it has the potential to reduce the logistical side of the game immensly, and that is a definate bonus to some groups/gm's.
However there are a (probably equal) number of groups/gm's that like a little extra granuality to aid with their immersion in the setting. Personally when my group plays we like the system to disappear into the background as much as possible during the actual roleplaying sections of the game - and we have had many an entertaining encounter in a market district or black-market dealer.
Now I'm well aware that mechanically influence is perfectly viable for purchases in any environment - but from a immersion point of view it really hasn't sat right with my group. They like to have control of there own logistics, they like it to be something they can predict and manage without too much out of character commentry. We go rid of the "Inquiry test to see if its avaliable" part of DH1 pretty early on, my group thought it was silly, so since then its basically been up to them to actually talk to NPC's to find the right place for the groups gun-bunny to find his shiny new death-spitter, and I've found the party more inclined to play their characters rather than their stat-lines if I'm no interrupting them with +XX and -YY rules comments. Now Thrones fitted this perfectly - want to bribe a bar-keep for some info, say your slipping him X number of Thrones and see how he reacts - want to know if you can afford that new digi-pencil look at the price tag, check your wallet, and if your brave let haggling commence.
Now before I get accused of a lack of imagination I know that there is nothing mechanically wrong with using an influence stat to do all of the above (and for the record I quite like Simsum's idea of Aquisition points above). But from a style and story-flow point of view I can't always justify useing influence. Our campaigns have run for years of in-game time with little or no "off-screen" time, if a character wanted to build connections my players prefer to roleplay that out rather than handwaving it away on a couple of dice rolls.
The only abstract system we have used without to many problems is Deathwatch's requisition system. I personally feel this would be a great thing for when acolytes are at a facility where they can throw their Emperor given power around, Admittedly it would still fall down in the underhive, but here is my middle ground.
Have FFG put down a simple X amount of requisition = Y amount of Thrones and possibly a column on the gear tables listing the influence penalty to getting a certain piece of kit. That would do my group, and it takes a little work of the GM.
For those that want to show the difference between different world economies a simply decide if your world increases or decreases the difficulty of getting hold of certain items and run with it.
Hope some of that made sense - im now off to read update 2
Regards
Surak
Most of my misgivings with the Thrones system come from the fact that any currency, let alone a sector-wide standardised currency, makes no **** sense in the 40k universe.
Most of my misgivings with the Thrones system come from the fact that any currency, let alone a sector-wide standardised currency, makes no **** sense in the 40k universe.
Ok I'll accept that to a point, the Euro is treaching us that a single currency for multiple economies isn't the easist thing to operate.
However if you treat Thrones as an abstracted currency rather than a literal one it overcomes that problem. Its a representation of the currency your using, otherwise DH1 would have needed a seperate currency for each world in the sector, and thats just silly. Now I know people will say thats not really that different to Influence - but my problem is the combination of your political connections and your fiscal resources into one catch-all stat - "I spent some money on the last planet so now I find it harder to work my contacts with this planets governer who happens ot be my brother-in-law" (extreme example I know)
Perhaps if you had seperate Influence and Resources stats this might flow better
Regards
Surak
Most of my misgivings with the Thrones system come from the fact that any currency, let alone a sector-wide standardised currency, makes no **** sense in the 40k universe.
If each currency was one planet only would that be better? Thrones could be the term used in the book but each time you change planet you would need new currency.
I have no problem believing that the larger more powerful planets share a sector, or sub sector wide currency. And when heading to smaller worlds, you can easily convert your cash over. And thus something like Thrones or Crowns are just a blanket representation of currency.
Also, the way to prevent your players from murderlooting, one most hives or advanced worlds, is to simply have credit chips. A few goons are maybe carrying some pocket change, but most of them will have a Debit Card sorta deal instead. And it's not like the boss of a large cult will be walking around with 500 thrones in his pocket.
And as for looting weapons to sell, say a band of armoured thuggish smooth talkers walked into your store, would YOU buy a stack of bloodcovered used shotguns covered in heretical symbols and probably still half full of ammo, from them?
Ok, I probably would too, BUT then I'd go straight to the enforcers, and probably start spreading rumours at the bar.
This is the real reason the Ordo Malleus has gold plated Rhinos. They aren't afraid to let anyone know they are in town, so when the Malleus acolyte offers you a backpack of destroyed armour, you give him top dollar, and thank him for his patronage.
The concept of 'weapon stores' and the like in 40k just seems weird in general. Most literature seems to paint the Imperium as a feudal society where most of the workers are pretty much indentured slaves with everything provided for them (and, because of that, no need to buy anything). There is a point to be made with the higher rungs of society, but I figure that'd work more like it did in feudal times; exchanges of goods, services, and things owed, not actual money.
The concept of 'weapon stores' and the like in 40k just seems weird in general. Most literature seems to paint the Imperium as a feudal society where most of the workers are pretty much indentured slaves with everything provided for them (and, because of that, no need to buy anything). There is a point to be made with the higher rungs of society, but I figure that'd work more like it did in feudal times; exchanges of goods, services, and things owed, not actual money.
Tom,
This is where 40k's diverse and inconsistant background does it no favours.
There are plenty of planets in the 40kverse that are proper Feudal Societies - right down to indentured serfs and Crown owned land - but equally there are a large number of worlds that do have a more modern style of consumer economy, we have seen them in novels like Ravenor. Now I'm not saying that every town on every world will have a gun shop decked out with bolters and meltas. But equally there will be places where true economics do happen, again we see these in the Guants Ghosts, Titanicus, Enforcer and Ravenor books. There is talk in one of the Ghost's novels of guardsmen getting paid when they are on leave, why would the imperium bother to pay its cannonfodder if they were assigned everything?
At the end of the day we are both right - the Imperium is both Feudal and Free-Market, Stagnant and Progressive - its these jaring contrasts that I find makes the setting so dynamic and compelling.
Regards
Surak
Most of the books you mentioned are Dan Abnett novels, which I think explains a lot. I don't think Abnett's writing has ever really captured 40k's tone properly. The 40k setting just seems like arbitrary window dressing on stories utterly disconnected from 40k itself in most Abnett stuff I've read. It doesn't help that Abnett was one of the big players in writing the original Dark Heresy, which was where thrones originated.
I've basically signed my death warrant by badmouthing Abnett, haven't I? For the record I do enjoy his books, I just don't think they should be looked to as the gold standard for 40k literature, cause they're fairly off-model when it comes to representing the setting.
Having recently finished the Eisenhorn trilogy, I am of the opinion that Abnett is not as good a writer as he is made out to be. My theory is that the genre is so full of schlock that his moderately entertaining novels shine brighter in a field of mediocrity.
Yeah, Black Library is veeeery hit and miss. Some is brilliant, but most ranges from bad to okay. The Horus Heresy series is particularly nasty despite the amount of praise it receives, the characterisation is all over the place for no apparent reason.
Anyway, just to avoid straying too far off topic; I think ultimately Influence is a better system than hard currency because it can account for situations where hard currency works as well as situations where hard currency doesn't.
Can I just say that I'm pro currency and find Abnett feels at odds with 40k. Not helped by him being the go to guy for IG fluff.
Most of the books you mentioned are Dan Abnett novels, which I think explains a lot. I don't think Abnett's writing has ever really captured 40k's tone properly. The 40k setting just seems like arbitrary window dressing on stories utterly disconnected from 40k itself in most Abnett stuff I've read. It doesn't help that Abnett was one of the big players in writing the original Dark Heresy, which was where thrones originated.
I've basically signed my death warrant by badmouthing Abnett, haven't I? For the record I do enjoy his books, I just don't think they should be looked to as the gold standard for 40k literature, cause they're fairly off-model when it comes to representing the setting.
Nah, Abnett is pretty over rated, though I am thrilled Aaron Demski-Bowden is on board now as I've loved his work since I discovered him through W:TF.
However, while DH1 gave the currency its colloquial term 'Thrones', I'm going to have to point out that this is not the first instance in which currency in the Imperium was established to have been used.
Necromunda was released in 1995 and used 'credits' which we're pretty obviously some kind of hard currency (gangs had to make a test to see if they could source rare equipment, but still needed the money in the treasury to buy it). This pre-dates DH1 by over a decade, in fact if we are going to get technical the first mention of 'credits' appeared in a white dwarf article in 1991 titled 'Confrontation', which was the forerunner to Necromunda.
Edited by CailI feel like the decision to include currency there was a gameplay decision more than a statement of tone and setting, honestly. The painfully generic 'credits' title really drives that one home.
That's being really pedantic, and it doesn't change that they are established as part of the lore, and have been for over twenty years. Just because you don't like it (or the name they chose) doesn't change that one iota.
Q: Why do I keep thinking that I should be using WoD or GURPS to play this game?
A: In WoD you can buy 1 or 2 items (Story Tellers call) per month with a cost equal to your dots in Resources which we could use influence bonus for and every thread I see on combat has one person who knowingly or not wants to make DH into GURPS.
I still think we need some way to run resource management away from your network even if it's just use influence bonus WoD style.
Oh hey that sounds perfect! Limiting number of purchases based on Influence Bonus! Yes! That way you still have the resource management (I have 64 Influence, so this month I can only buy 6 Rarity worth of things- do I buy three 2's, or one 6!?) without having to scrap Influence entirely. The question is what to base "price" off of- Rarity is the obvious solution, but rarity is meant to represent rarity, so something very rare might not be very expensive. (Sentinels are quite common, but probably harder to buy than a medkit). I guess it wouldn't be too hard to slap a price category on everything in the armory though.
Most of the books you mentioned are Dan Abnett novels, which I think explains a lot. I don't think Abnett's writing has ever really captured 40k's tone properly. The 40k setting just seems like arbitrary window dressing on stories utterly disconnected from 40k itself in most Abnett stuff I've read. It doesn't help that Abnett was one of the big players in writing the original Dark Heresy, which was where thrones originated.
Having recently finished the Eisenhorn trilogy, I am of the opinion that Abnett is not as good a writer as he is made out to be. My theory is that the genre is so full of schlock that his moderately entertaining novels shine brighter in a field of mediocrity.
Personally, I feel like Abnett's significantly-less-grimdark model is to some degree necessary for the system to make sense. How could people find time to have cults on a world where everyone works sixteen hour days?
I agree completely with your assessment of his quality though. He's not a fantastic writer, (I'd rank him as a notch below, say, Jim Butcher, and Jim Butcher is already my guilty-pleasure-pulp-fiction author), but he's among the best GW has, and I certainly enjoyed his books.
Yeah, Black Library is veeeery hit and miss. Some is brilliant, but most ranges from bad to okay. The Horus Heresy series is particularly nasty despite the amount of praise it receives, the characterisation is all over the place for no apparent reason.
Anyway, just to avoid straying too far off topic; I think ultimately Influence is a better system than hard currency because it can account for situations where hard currency works as well as situations where hard currency doesn't.
Just to continue our descent into off-topicness, the characterization in Horus Heresy is crazy because every book is written by a different author. I can only assume they had a storyboard where Horus is great in book 1, flawed in book 2, and evil by book 3, but then none of the authors bothered to write transitions so at the start of book two he just up and shouts "I HAVE HUBRIS NOW!" (and that's to say nothing of poor Keeler's path)
Oh hey that sounds perfect! Limiting number of purchases based on Influence Bonus! Yes! That way you still have the resource management (I have 64 Influence, so this month I can only buy 6 Rarity worth of things- do I buy three 2's, or one 6!?) without having to scrap Influence entirely. The question is what to base "price" off of- Rarity is the obvious solution, but rarity is meant to represent rarity, so something very rare might not be very expensive. (Sentinels are quite common, but probably harder to buy than a medkit). I guess it wouldn't be too hard to slap a price category on everything in the armory though.
Q: Why do I keep thinking that I should be using WoD or GURPS to play this game?
A: In WoD you can buy 1 or 2 items (Story Tellers call) per month with a cost equal to your dots in Resources which we could use influence bonus for and every thread I see on combat has one person who knowingly or not wants to make DH into GURPS.
I still think we need some way to run resource management away from your network even if it's just use influence bonus WoD style.
This still doesn't make sense though. Players are going to wonder why they have a limit to buying things. It also doesn't take into account the rarity of certain items on different planets.
Currency only really works when all factors are taken into account such as:
1. All planets have the same currency and economic factors
2. All planets have the same availability for items.
Oh hey that sounds perfect! Limiting number of purchases based on Influence Bonus! Yes! That way you still have the resource management (I have 64 Influence, so this month I can only buy 6 Rarity worth of things- do I buy three 2's, or one 6!?) without having to scrap Influence entirely. The question is what to base "price" off of- Rarity is the obvious solution, but rarity is meant to represent rarity, so something very rare might not be very expensive. (Sentinels are quite common, but probably harder to buy than a medkit). I guess it wouldn't be too hard to slap a price category on everything in the armory though.
Q: Why do I keep thinking that I should be using WoD or GURPS to play this game?
A: In WoD you can buy 1 or 2 items (Story Tellers call) per month with a cost equal to your dots in Resources which we could use influence bonus for and every thread I see on combat has one person who knowingly or not wants to make DH into GURPS.
I still think we need some way to run resource management away from your network even if it's just use influence bonus WoD style.
This still doesn't make sense though. Players are going to wonder why they have a limit to buying things. It also doesn't take into account the rarity of certain items on different planets.
Currency only really works when all factors are taken into account such as:
1. All planets have the same currency and economic factors
2. All planets have the same availability for items.
Yeah but now we're getting into Traveller by GDW territory, where every planet has a 20 symbol key to tell you the economic, technological, atmospheric blah blah blah blah of every world in every sector
As a great man once said "You gotta let some **** slide"
Oh hey that sounds perfect! Limiting number of purchases based on Influence Bonus! Yes! That way you still have the resource management (I have 64 Influence, so this month I can only buy 6 Rarity worth of things- do I buy three 2's, or one 6!?) without having to scrap Influence entirely. The question is what to base "price" off of- Rarity is the obvious solution, but rarity is meant to represent rarity, so something very rare might not be very expensive. (Sentinels are quite common, but probably harder to buy than a medkit). I guess it wouldn't be too hard to slap a price category on everything in the armory though.
Q: Why do I keep thinking that I should be using WoD or GURPS to play this game?
A: In WoD you can buy 1 or 2 items (Story Tellers call) per month with a cost equal to your dots in Resources which we could use influence bonus for and every thread I see on combat has one person who knowingly or not wants to make DH into GURPS.
I still think we need some way to run resource management away from your network even if it's just use influence bonus WoD style.
This still doesn't make sense though. Players are going to wonder why they have a limit to buying things. It also doesn't take into account the rarity of certain items on different planets.
Currency only really works when all factors are taken into account such as:
1. All planets have the same currency and economic factors
2. All planets have the same availability for items.
Yeah but now we're getting into Traveller by GDW territory, where every planet has a 20 symbol key to tell you the economic, technological, atmospheric blah blah blah blah of every world in every sector
As a great man once said "You gotta let some **** slide"
I agree with some things but it's not even close to believable that a Feral world is going to mass produce thrones or even lasguns for that matter.
I agree with some things but it's not even close to believable that a Feral world is going to mass produce thrones or even lasguns for that matter.
Players are going to wonder why they have a limit to buying things.
Only so much money per month/so many favors to call in at a time.
economic, technological, atmospheric blah blah blah blah of every world in every sector
As a great man once said "You gotta let some **** slide"
Actually, I could see maybe adapting the Aptitude system for rarity, with worlds having vague categories like Military or Cybernetics, and then goods being one step less rare for every category the world matched.
So apply an availability penalty on advanced goods when in primitive settings?I agree with some things but it's not even close to believable that a Feral world is going to mass produce thrones or even lasguns for that matter.
Side bar maybe?
Players are going to wonder why they have a limit to buying things.
Only so much money per month/so many favors to call in at a time.
economic, technological, atmospheric blah blah blah blah of every world in every sector
As a great man once said "You gotta let some **** slide"
Actually, I could see maybe adapting the Aptitude system for rarity, with worlds having vague categories like Military or Cybernetics, and then goods being one step less rare for every category the world matched.
Now that would be closer to fixing the real issue. The DH system just isn't built to use currency and therefore a system needs to be introduced to make it viable and balanced.
Whether Dark Heresy is built to use currency is a matter of opinion, one I very much disagree with you on given that its predecessor Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay was designed with hard currency in mind, and functioned fine for over two decades. It currency system was more complicated, even including the taxes for specific cities (which I really miss in settings like DH)
There are /flaws/ with using just hard currency, but I really don't see why using INFL as a way to requisition equipment and than giving characters actual money to use in the adventure is infeasible (which is what you appear to be saying). Its just a matter of taste, arguing that one is completely unworkable is just a farce.