Okay, so there's frequently been back and forth about having the weapons be balanced against each other. As far as I can tell, no one has suggested making a stub revolver be as useful as a plasma gun. However, in order to balance the weapons, there ARE differences in rarity. I feel like the rarities can be used as a guideline to compare weapons within each of the rarity classes. Are weapons of the same rarity equivalent to each other? Looking at the below results, I already see some issues, which I'll bring up in another post.

I'm also adding in rarities for weapon modifications that don't apply equally across weapons and special ammunition. Ideally, I would be able to add in ranks for weapons using special ammo/modifications to see if they stack up to weapons of equal rarity. As far as I can tell, however, the current acquisition system does not account for acquiring a weapon AND modification/ammunition, so I cannot determine exact rarities. Am I missing a rule somewhere, or does someone have a suggestion on how to calculate these rarities?

Here are the tables

RARITY

Ubiquitous

Abundant

Whip 6.50 (Max 8) (+ SB) Pen 0; Flexible

Plentiful

Laslock 9.50 Pen 0; Pistol

75m; S/-/-; 1 Clip; Half Reload; Unreliable

Stub Revolver 8.50 Pen 0; Pistol

30m; S/-/-; 6 Clip; 2 Full Reload; Unreliable

Fire Bomb 8.50 Pen 6

Knife 3.00 (+ SB) Pen 0; Melee/Thrown

Staff 5.50 (Max 8) (+SB) Pen 0; Balanced

Truncheon 5.50 (Max 7) (+ SB) Pen 0

Common

Laspistol 7.50 Pen 0/8.50 Pen 0/9.50 Pen 2; Pistol

30m; S/2/-; 30/15/7.5 Clip; Half Reload; Reliable/Reliable/Unreliable

Lasgun 8.50 Pen 0/9.50 Pen 0/10.50 Pen 0; Basic

100m; S/3/-; 60 Clip/30 Clip/15 Clip; Full Reload; Reliable/Reliable/Unreliable

Bow 5.50 (Max 6) Pen 0; Basic

30m; S/-/-; 1 Clip; Half Reload; Reliable

Crossbow 5.50 (Max 7) Pen 0; Basic

30m; S/-/-; 1 Clip; 2 Full Reload

Frag Grenade 11.00 Pen 0; Thrown

SBx3m; Blast (3)

Smoke Grenade SBx3m; Smoke (6)

Stun Grenade SBx3m; Blast (3); Concussive (2)

Web Grenade SBx3m; Blast (5); Snare (2)

Shield 3.00 (Max 3) (+SB) Pen 0; Defensive

Spear 5.50 (Max 8) (+SB) Pen 0

Sword 5.50 (+SB) Pen 0; Balanced

Average

Grenade Launcher Basic; 60m; S/-/-; 6 Clip; 2 Full Reload

Bolas Thrown; 10m; S/-/-; 1 Clip; Inaccurate, Primitive (1) (Typo?), Snare (1)

Autopistol 7.50 Pen 0; Pistol

30m; S/-/6; 18 Clip; Full Reload

Autogun 8.50 Pen 0; Basic

100m; S/3/10; 30 Clip; Full Reload

Shotgun (Single) 9.50 Pen 0; Basic

30m; S/-/-; 8 Clip; 2 Full Reload; Scatter

Shotgun (Pump) 8.50 Pen 0; Basic

30m; S/-/-; 12 Clip; 2 Full Reload; Scatter

Stub Automatic 8.50 Pen 0; Pistol

30m; S/3/-; 9 Clip; Full Reload

Frag Missile 13.00 Pen 2; Blast (5)

Chainsword 9.15 (+SB) Pen 2; Balanced

Scarce

Flamer 9.50 Pen 2; Basic

20m; S/-/-; 6 Clip; 2 Full Reload; Flame, Spray

Long Las 8.50 Pen 1/9.50 Pen 1/10.50 Pen 3; Basic

150m; S/-/-; 40 Clip/20 Clip/10 Clip; Full Reload; Accurate, Felling (4), Reliable/Reliable/Unreliable

Hand Cannon 9.50 Pen 2; Pistol

35m; S/-/-; 5 Clip; 2 Full Reload

Shotgun (Combat) 9.50 Pen 0; Basic

30m; S/3/-; 18 Clip; Full Reload; Scatter

Sniper Rifle 9.50 Pen 3; Basic

200m; S/-/-; 20 Clip; Full Reload; Accurate, Reliable

Anti-Plant Grenade 16.50 Pen 0 (Flora Only)

SBx3m; Blast (3)

Blind Grenade 11.00 Pen 0

SBx3m; Smoke (3)

Hallucinogen Grenade SBx3m; Blast (6); Hallucinogenic (2)

Krak Missile 24.50 (Min 14) Pen 8; Concussive (3); Proven (2)

Chainaxe 11.15 (+SB) Pen 2

Chainblade 8.15 (+SB) Pen 2

Great Weapon 11.00 (+SB) Pen 0; Unbalanced

Hunting Lance 14.00 (+SB) Pen 7; Concussive 3/5.50 (Max 7) (+SB) Pen0

Warhammer 7.50 (Max 8) (+ SB) Pen 1

Shock Maul 8.50 (+ SB) Pen 0; Shocking

Rare

Hand Flamer 9.50 Pen 2; Pistol

10m; S/-/-; 2 Clip; 2 Full Reload; Flame, Spray

Heavy Flamer 10.50 Pen 4; Heavy

30m; S/-/-; 10 Clip; 2 Full Reload; Flame, Spray

Hot-shot Laspistol 9.50 Pen 7; Pistol

20m; S/2/-; 40 Clip; 2 Full Reload; +10 kg backpack

Hot-shot Lasgun 9.50 Pen 7; Basic

60m; S/3/-; 30 Clip; 2 Full Reload; +10kg backpack

Missile Launcher Heavy; 300m; S/-/-; Full Reload

Heavy Stubber 9.50 Pen 2; Heavy

100m; -/-/8; 75 Clip; 2 Full Reload

Webber Basic; 50m; S/-/-; 1 Clip; Full Reload; Blast (5); Snare (Typo?)

Krak Grenade 15.00 Pen 6

SBx3m; Concussive (0)

Photon Flash Grenade SBx3; Blast (10); +10 Agi Test or blinded

Electro-Flail 7.50 (+SB) Pen 0; Flexible, Shocking

Very Rare

Bolt Pistol 12.15 Pen 4; Pistol

30m; S/2/-; 8 Clip; Full Reload

Boltgun 12.15 Pen 4; Basic

100m; S/3/-; 24 Clip; Full Reload

Heavy Bolter 15.15 Pen 5; Heavy

150m; -/-/6; 60 Clip; Full Reload

Meltagun 21.00 Pen 12/24 (10m); Basic

20m; S/-/-; 5 Clip; Full Reload

Plasma Pistol 11.50 Pen 6/17.00 Pen 8; Pistol

30m/40m; S/2/-; 10 Clip/3.3 Clip; 3 Full Reload; Overheat/Overheat, Recharge

Plasma Gun 12.50 Pen 6/18.00 Pen 8; Basic

90m/100m; S/2/-; 40 Clip/13.3 Clip; 5 Full Reload; Overheat/Overheat, Recharge

Autocannon 24.50 Pen 6; Heavy

300m; S/3/-; 20 Clip; 2 Full Reload; Reliable

Needle Pistol 5.50 Pen 0; Pistol

30m; S/-/-; 6 Clip; 2 Full Reload; Accurate, Felling (1), Toxic (5)

Needle Rifle 5.50 Pen 0; Basic

180m; S/-/-; 6 Clip; 2 Full Reload; Accurate, Felling (1), Toxic (5)

Web Pistol Pistol; 30m; S/-/-; 1 Clip; Full Reload; Snare (Typo?)

Haywire Grenade SBx3; Haywire

Melta Bomb 33.00 Pen 12/Pen 24 (Short Range?); Not thrown; Blast (2), Flame, Melta

Eviscerator 13.47 (+SB) Pen 9; Razor Sharp (Pen 18), Unwieldy

Power Fist 11.00 (+SB*2) Pen 9; Power Field, Unwieldy

Power Sword 10.50 (+SB) Pen 5; Balanced, Power Field

Power Axe 12.50 (+SB) Pen 7; Power Field, Unbalanced

Power Maul 10.50 (+SB) Pen 4; Power Field, Shocking/6.50 (+SB) Pen 2; Shocking

Extremely Rare

Storm Bolter 12.15 Pen 4 (x2); Basic

90m; S/2/4; 60 Clip; Full Reload

Graviton Gun 11.50 (+AP) Pen 8; Basic

30m; S/3/-; 9 Clip; 2 Full Reload; Concussive (1)

Force Staff 5.50 (+SB, +PR) Pen 2 (+PR); Force

Omnissian Axe 9.50 (+SB) Pen 6; Power Field, Unbalanced; Combi-Tool

Near Unique

Inferno Pistol 21.00 Pen 12/Pen 24 (5m); Pistol

10m; S/-/-; 3 Clip; Full Reload

Grav Pistol 8.50 (+AP) Pen 6; Pistol

15m; S/-/-; 6 Clip; Full Reload; Concussive (2)

Force Sword 6.50 (+SB, +PR) Pen 2 (+PR); Balanced, Force

Upgrades

Plentiful

Melee Attachment (Basic; ranged weapons)

Silencer (Basic/Pistol (unclear); SP)

Common

Exterminator (Anything but Low-Tech)

Extra Grip (Basic; ranged weapons)

Overcharge Pack (Pistol/Basic; Las)

Average

Compact (Pistol; Basic; Las, SP, Flame, Bolt, Plasma)

Telescopic Sight (Basic; Las, SP, Bolt, Low-Tech, Plasma)

Tripod and Bipod (Basic/Heavy; Ranged)

Scarce

Backpack Ammo Supply (Bolt, Flame, Las, Melta, Plasma, SP)

Forearm Mounting (Pistol; Las, Low-Tech, SP (Typo?), Bolt, Melta)

Mono (Melee; Low-Tech)

Red-Dot Laser Sight (Pistol/Basic; Las, SP, Bolt, Low-Tech, Plasma)

Rare

Auxiliary Grenade Launcher (Basic; Las, SP, Bolt)

Fire Selector (Pistol/Basic; Bolt, SP)

Fluid Action (Ranged; semi-auto capable)

Targeter (Las, SP, Bolt, Heavy)

Tox Dispenser (Melee; Low-Tech, Chain)

Vox-Operated (Pistol/Basic/Launcher/Heavy; not Low-Tech)

Very Rare

Motion Predictor (Ranged except Low-Tech; Semi-auto/Full Auto capable)

Photo Sight (Basic; Las, SP, Bolt, Low-Tech, Plasma)

Preysense Sight (Basic; Las, SP, Bolt, Low-Tech, Plasma)

Extremely Rare

Suspensors (Heavy; ranged weapons)

Near Unique

Omni-Scope (Basic; Las, SP, Bolt, Low-Tech, Plasma)

Ammunition

Scarce

Dumdum Bullet (Stub Revolver, stub automatic, sniper rifle, hand cannon)

Expander Round (Stub revolver, stub automatic, sniper rifle, autopistol, autogun)

Explosive Arrow/Quarrel (Bow, crossbow, hand bow)

Hot-Shot Charge Pack (Laspistol, Lascarbine (Typo), Lasgun, Long-las)

Man-Stopper Bullet (Stub revolver, Stub automatic, sniper rifle, hand cannon, sniper rifle (typo), autopistol, autogun)

Tox Round (Bolt, SP)

Rare

Bleeder Round (Stub revolver, stub automatic, hand cannon, autopistol, autogun)

Inferno Shell (Shotgun, Pump-Action Shotgun, Combat Shotguns, Bolt)

Scrambler Round (Bolt, SP)

Extremely Rare

Amputator Shell (Stub revolver, stub automatic, all shotguns, sniper rifle, hand cannon, autopistol, autogun)

Near Unique

Tempest Bolt Shell (Bolt Pistol, Boltgun, Heavy Bolter)

I edited in the actual damage values for the weapons, along with other basic information. Any qualities which directly affected stats like damage or Pen I didn't list and instead modified the stats instead. Some thoughts:

Abundant Weapons: The whip is better than pretty much any of the Plentiful Melee Weapons and the Common ones. It should be dialed back or made rarer.

Plentiful: These weapons all seem relatively balanced with each other. Why isn't the knife Primitive?

Common: The bow and crossbow are absolute ass. They should be made much less rare or buffed up. The Laspistol and Lasgun seem way too powerful to be in this group. They should probably be average. The spear sucks and has no decent use. The shield should provide some additional AP. Why isn't the sword primitive?

Average: The Bolas don't do damage, and thus don't need the Primitive quality. They also suck for this rarity bracket. The shotguns all kind of suck and the amount of differentiation between the single and pump shotgun is negligible (4 more ammo versus 1 more damage). I also don't know if 1 more damage is enough to make the stub automatic and autopistol equal out. The chainsword also seems too powerful for this group, dealing at least 10.15 damage (more likely at least 12.15) with Pen 2.

Scarce: The hand cannon is way too weak for this group. I don't think that the extra 50m range and 2 Pen of the Sniper Rifle makes it comparable to the Long Las. The chain blade is way too week for this rarity. The warhammer completely sucks and is way too rare. The shock maul also feels weak in comparison. The Chain Axe seems a bit too powerful for this group. The Great weapon also seems kind of weak.

Rare: These weapons all seem fairly balanced for the ranged, although the Webber feels kind of weak for this rarity. This also seems too rare for the Electro-Flail. A lot of these weapons also don't seem that much more powerful than the Scarce ones.

Very Rare: The Meltagun seems way too powerful in comparison. The plasma weapons also seem a bit too powerful. The needle weapons are looking pretty good. The power weapons all seem a bit more powerful than the bolt ones. Honestly, I don't think the Bolt weapons should be so close in rarity/power to the plasma and melta weapons. The web pistol is also too weak in comparison.

Extremely Rare/Near Unique: The weapons in these categories all seem appropriate. The Omnissian Axe seems REALLY weak, though. It's worse than a Power Sword, and still rarer. The Combi-Tool alone isn't worth the extra rarity.

In defence of the lasgun, it does seem to be the primary weapon of the setting, which means it should be too good for it's availability. Likewise, once we have access to even just muskets, bows and crossbows became irrelevant except as sports weapons. That they are as common as they are is probably a mistake.

But then, this comes from a more fundamental problem, or rather 2.

1) Availabilities are a flat rating. Which makes no sense at all. On eg. a feral world, nothing is likely to be available which isn't primitive, but spears and bows are likely to be ubiquitous or nearly so. Similarly, a stub revolver should be rather easier to find in Gun Metal City (Scintilla, Calixis) than a whip. This is ofcourse why we have a GM, but it's still clunky.

2) Common doesn't mean cheap. The idea of smashing availability and price into one has been with us since RT, but it's fundamentally silly. Mechanically easy, but silly. Yesterday I was out looking for model wheels (I wanted to scratch-build some ork vehicles). Couldn't find them. Walked by several car dealerships on the way though. So clearly cars are (locally) more common that toy wheels, but certainly not cheaper!

1) Availabilities are a flat rating. Which makes no sense at all. On eg. a feral world, nothing is likely to be available which isn't primitive, but spears and bows are likely to be ubiquitous or nearly so. Similarly, a stub revolver should be rather easier to find in Gun Metal City (Scintilla, Calixis) than a whip. This is ofcourse why we have a GM, but it's still clunky.

This is an excellent idea. A simple table of world type and weapon type with a modifier would be a great addition to the armoury section, removing the need to the GM to make up values (or as a guide to tweak for a specific world).

1) Availabilities are a flat rating. Which makes no sense at all. On eg. a feral world, nothing is likely to be available which isn't primitive, but spears and bows are likely to be ubiquitous or nearly so. Similarly, a stub revolver should be rather easier to find in Gun Metal City (Scintilla, Calixis) than a whip. This is ofcourse why we have a GM, but it's still clunky.

This is an excellent idea. A simple table of world type and weapon type with a modifier would be a great addition to the armoury section, removing the need to the GM to make up values (or as a guide to tweak for a specific world).

The main use would probably be to limit whining from players, but YMMV

In defence of the lasgun, it does seem to be the primary weapon of the setting, which means it should be too good for it's availability. Likewise, once we have access to even just muskets, bows and crossbows became irrelevant except as sports weapons. That they are as common as they are is probably a mistake.

But then, this comes from a more fundamental problem, or rather 2.

1) Availabilities are a flat rating. Which makes no sense at all. On eg. a feral world, nothing is likely to be available which isn't primitive, but spears and bows are likely to be ubiquitous or nearly so. Similarly, a stub revolver should be rather easier to find in Gun Metal City (Scintilla, Calixis) than a whip. This is ofcourse why we have a GM, but it's still clunky.

2) Common doesn't mean cheap. The idea of smashing availability and price into one has been with us since RT, but it's fundamentally silly. Mechanically easy, but silly. Yesterday I was out looking for model wheels (I wanted to scratch-build some ork vehicles). Couldn't find them. Walked by several car dealerships on the way though. So clearly cars are (locally) more common that toy wheels, but certainly not cheaper!

The lasgun being the primary weapon of the imperium is an important piece of fluff, but it doesn't chane the fact that we're looking at the mechanical balance of the weapons. Las weapons should get an increase in rarity; yes, there may be more of them in existence, but they're going to be under guard/intended for use off-world, and thus trickier to get ahold of.

If bows and crossbows are irrelevant in comparison to regular weapons, I don't see any reason to include them. Have a gonzoed out now that fires three arrows or has grapple arrows or a bunch of other cool gadgets. Give the crossbow the latest in mono tipped arrows covered in poison. Something actually interesting. I understand the idea behind including these weapons: what if the players get stuck on a feral world? Well, given that the focus of the game is primarily city-based intrigue, I don't really see there being a lot of times that will happen in comparison to the space being taken up by those weapons in the chart. Either make them more common, make them stronger (strength bonus for bow, more arrow types, multiple shots for crossbow better concealability like a folding one handed weapon). I'd prefer that the game give me interesting choices rather than crap ones.

I'd be fine with having some more availability modifiers, but flat availabilities are also the best current way we have to tier the weapons for balancing, so that's what I'm using. And availability abstracts price and rarity as a way to limit the mini game of going out and finding and buying weapons. I personally don't find shopping to be that enjoyable in an rpg (especially reduced to a series of rolls that can go wrong at each turn, but that's my opinion.

Also, lots of player resentment. I wonder what the ratio of players to GMs is on this board? Maybe it explains some of the opinions (I don't have to play it but I do have to prepare for it!).

I get why crossbows and bows are in the game - they're for players who insist on being Jack Churchill - but they are mechanically pointless. There are so many cool things you can do with a bow or crossbow (see: Thief games) but the 40k games don't bother with any of it. They're mechanically pointless and totally bland flavor-wise. Remove them or add in cool things to do with them.

Also given this I think bows should have a semi-auto option.

I think bows should be included in the game and should be weak compared to other less primitive ranged weapons. Bows are important on low-tech feral or feudal worlds and for acolytes trying to go undercover on such worlds.

I actually like having bows and crossbows in the system. Sometimes you need to know that yeah, your situation sucks. Hard.

You're stuck on this feral world. There's a xenos monster out there as well as a crazy big game hunter. Both of which/whom are out to get you.

The Xenos may be unarmed, but it has disembowled a grox through a wall already (which was how you found out about it).

And the big game hunter has some sort of best quality long las and some really fancy stealth gear.

And all you could rustle up was this **** bow.

Add ofcourse to the detail that I believe game balance is the White Hart of game design and that mechanical balance between weapons is a pipe-dream, only to be dreamt by those still sitting there with that glass pipe in their hand.

You could kindly **** off from this thread, then?

You could kindly **** off from this thread, then?

If D&D 4E proved anything it was that balance is an unattainable goal and results only in unfun games.

You could kindly **** off from this thread, then?

I assume this was aimed at my comment?

If so, I thought it was perfectly relevant for the thread.

Face it, substandard tools exist.

And as for cps' cute quip about D&D 4E and game balance;

Yes, game balance is unattanable, because different groups (and indeed individuals) have differing ideas of where and how they want said balance. That's about how complicated that is.

As a game designer, you can only write down your vision of the game, and describe how you think it should be balanced.

And then step back and let the rabid wolves tear your beautiful creation apart.

Or you can do something like this, with an open beta, and watch the wolves tear into eachother before your product is even half way finished.

(I was about to get acerbic here, but deleted it. That comment would not have been productive.)

The lasgun being the primary weapon of the imperium is an important piece of fluff, but it doesn't chane the fact that we're looking at the mechanical balance of the weapons.

I don't know why would even try to do that. If you have the money and the resources you take the best equipment, and that's it. I don't think we should make tons of special rules or change reasonable availabilities to make players think they should pick this or that weapon. That decision should be a narrative one; you either are not important / rich enough to buy a boltgun and it's ammunition, are lost in a planet forgot by the hand of DI EMPRAH or you are in need of maximum subtlety.

Making Las weapons (For example) rarer for the sake of weapon balance when in the fluff they're about *everywhere* I think is not a good option

Edit: In fact, a good example is the Lasgun not having full-auto. It seems to be a "just for balance" decision, to make people get autoguns. I think that's just stupid. We KNOW the Lasgun has full auto mode (And in my games it does have it).

First off, if you're not trying to balance out the options in your game, there are better ways to do it than wasting space with sh*tty weapons that won't be chosen. Oh look, they have a poor quality option. Why not use that if you want to give people bad weapons? You are basically arguing that some weapons should be in the game whose primary role is "being bad weapons" followed by secondary role of "exists on a planet with bad weapons." That's it. There is one mechanism acting as a balance for some weapons being better than others, and that is availability.

Let me break this stupid "well some weapons are just better" argument down for you. In reality, AND in the fluff, some weapons are better than others. However, there are various CLASSES of weapons. You have a pistol and it's going to be much better at a certain role than an assault rifle. The difference in weapon quality is based on model, manufacturer, and so on. Each of the weapons in dark heresy represents an entire class of weapon. The book even goes into how they represent millions of different kinds of models and patterns and manufacturers. You can't look at these things like a video game where there is a clear progression in weapon usefulness and power based on where you are in the game.

And sure, in this thread about looking at the numbers to balance out the weapons, you have every right to announce you don't think balance is possible. I have no idea where you have that idea, given that I'm pretty systematically looking through the numbers and math within a defined framework, but feel free to dismiss it. It's fine if you think balancing a game with numbers is a bad idea. However, you've said your piece on it and it contributes nothing to the thread so here we are. I have no idea why it is that people think you can't have interesting narrative weapons AND have them match up mathematically. Just because so many people suck at doing that/don't want to try doesn't make it impossible.

Also, @eisenhorn, congratulations on making autogun a worse in comparison? Did you bother adjusting their rarity or just arbitrarily punish your players with crappier guns or just go with no one wanting to use autoguns in the first place? And again, if you don't want to make las weapons rarer, you can also buff the other weapons.

I don't think all weapons of a certain rarity need to be balanced and I think it's OK if, say, Lasguns are both good and easy to acquire.

The Ommissian Axe is rare because it's a sigil of the Machine Cult, not because it's insanely better than other power axes. Likewise, bows are both rare and inferior. But you have stats, not just in case PCs use them but in case they are menaced by primitives with bows.

I would like to see Melta and Plasma weapons be rarer than bolt weapons though. Not so much for balance as to match the pre-existing fluff and image of the universe; someone packing a bolt pistol is obviously a mover and shaker, but someone with a plasma pistol is someone with access to old and volatile technology and clearly a step again up the food chain.

But yeah, Lasguns are good and easy to get; that's why half the universe uses them. Working as it should.

I would like to see Melta and Plasma weapons be rarer than bolt weapons though. Not so much for balance as to match the pre-existing fluff and image of the universe; someone packing a bolt pistol is obviously a mover and shaker, but someone with a plasma pistol is someone with access to old and volatile technology and clearly a step again up the food chain.

This.

So I'm currently making a bigass excel sheet to try comparing the weapons mathematically.

The current value I'm giving each weapon is based on damage.

I take each weapon's damage rating and pen and compare it to every combination of 1-20 toughness and 0-20 Armor, then take the average of that to get the weapon's Final Damage Rating.

For guns, I'm taking all of the percent chances of scoring hits for each of single, semi, and full auto for 1-100 Ballistic Skill, and averaging that percent chance, then multiplying it by the weapons final damage rating. I then add the product for each of single, semi, and full auto to the final value of damage rating.

So, for instance, the Autopistol has a Final Damage Rating (average damage against each type of armor and toughness) of 0.17, a Single Shot value of 0.10, a Semi Auto value of 0, and a Full Auto value of 0.25, for a total damage value of 0.52

In comparison, the Handcannon has a Final Damage Rating of 0.53 a Single Shot Value of 0.32, and Semi and Full Auto Values of 0 for a total damage value of .85.

So, on average, the Handcannon is a better weapon than the Autopistol.

Here are my current snags:

Melee Weapons all add strength to their attacks, and as a result all end up with significantly higher ratings than an equivalent ranged weapon, although the difference decreases the higher the base damage is. I'm not really sure how to control for this mathematically; does anyone have any ideas?

As far as ammunition goes, I'm considering just multiplying the damage value for the firing modes by the number of shots the weapon has, minus .5 for each half action the weapon takes to reload. Seem reasonable?

I have no idea how to account for range.

For weapons with multiple firing modes, I'm considering just creating a weapon profile for each mode and then averaging them.

I'm not sure how to account for the extra damage of accurate due to the required Aim action.

I'm not going to be able to account for the weapon qualities that don't directly contribute to damage.

Any thoughts so far? I can go ahead and post my current results tonight if people would like.

I think something you may have unwittingly revealed is that weapons just don't "fit the mold". There are so many variables just in generic weapon stats, then there are SWQs and those certainly blow attempts to relate them to one another right out of the water.

If I were you I wouldn't really concern myself with Special Ammo Types (for now at least)- that really looks to be more a pain in the arse than is needed at the moment. Just give the weapons themselves the workover.

Another variable for melee weapons (I think) might be the user's WS?

I keep coming to the following thought: Perhaps it would be best to pick one or two each of "iconic" ranged and melee weapons of the 40K universe and use them as the starting point (or template) for all other weapons. And then I think "That may be exactly what FFG did in the first place."

I'm not comparing weapon skills for the melee weapons because that is the same factor for all of them, thus I can eliminate it from any kind of formula.

And yeah, I know that all of the weapons aren't going to fit the mold, but if I can narrow things down to "Damage Value + Other Qualities" it makes the weapons a lot easier to compare with one another.

Also, just a fun thing I've noticed: The unreliable quality has less effect on weapons using full auto due to the -10 penalty. Without positive modifiers, an unreliable weapon filed on full auto will never jam when it would have normally hit. Unreliable also doesn't effect the chance of getting additional degrees of success that allow for extra hits on full or semi-auto. Interesting quirk, and another instance of single shotters getting subtly sandbagged.

I get why crossbows and bows are in the game - they're for players who insist on being Jack Churchill - but they are mechanically pointless. There are so many cool things you can do with a bow or crossbow (see: Thief games) but the 40k games don't bother with any of it. They're mechanically pointless and totally bland flavor-wise. Remove them or add in cool things to do with them.

Also given this I think bows should have a semi-auto option.

I'd like to have 2 or 3 cool varaints of arrows for them (simliar to the hunting lance options of OW)

> Mono Arrows

> Explosive arrows (already exist, but should not give the -10 on attacks)

> poisoned arrows

Also, just a fun thing I've noticed: The unreliable quality has less effect on weapons using full auto due to the -10 penalty. Without positive modifiers, an unreliable weapon filed on full auto will never jam when it would have normally hit. Unreliable also doesn't effect the chance of getting additional degrees of success that allow for extra hits on full or semi-auto. Interesting quirk, and another instance of single shotters getting subtly sandbagged.

Wait, what?

This seems wrong. Isn't chance to jam based on the natural result of the dice? Are you applying modifiers to the diceroll itself, rather than your target number? I'm confused.

Also, just a fun thing I've noticed: The unreliable quality has less effect on weapons using full auto due to the -10 penalty. Without positive modifiers, an unreliable weapon filed on full auto will never jam when it would have normally hit. Unreliable also doesn't effect the chance of getting additional degrees of success that allow for extra hits on full or semi-auto. Interesting quirk, and another instance of single shotters getting subtly sandbagged.

Wait, what?

This seems wrong. Isn't chance to jam based on the natural result of the dice? Are you applying modifiers to the diceroll itself, rather than your target number? I'm confused.

Okay, so with a Single Shot and a Semi-Auto shot, barring other modifiers, you have a chance to hit on a roll of 91-96 or 91-94, respectively, which the Unreliable Quality will take away. Full Auto weapons never had that chance to hit anything on a roll above 90 due to their automatic -10, meaning that the Unreliable Quality is slightly less worse for them. It's also slightly less worse for semi-auto, due to it removing a 4% chance to hit from it rather than 6% for Single Shot. Does that make sense? It still increases the chance of jamming for all of the above, but the amount it reduces chance to succeed by differs.

Oh, I see what you mean now, yeah.