We've had plenty of these discussions but the new beta still hasn't addressed them. Many of us still feel that the balance between TB "skin armour", armour points and penetration needs some tweaking so that characters don't become walking terminators with high Toughness scores.

Since we have talked about it so many times, it would be nice to compile all previous ideas for fixes here as well as new ones.

All I can say is that the problem is not with the "skin armor" but with the weapons' damage output. Increase the damage dealt by the weapons, improve armor/penetration accordingly to chop off the mortality rate and there you go.

Me and my buds have been using this change in our custom 1.5 Beta rules and we have a blast with it. Yeah, maybe a meltagun will turn you into a smoking pile of ash without even rolling for damage but maybe you shouldn't dance in front of such a powerful weapon in the first place.

I think most would run away from a meltagun in the first place. "Oh, you are behind cover, not anymore!" as the meltagun reduces the wall to ashes.

We can up armor and damage.

Other than that or the Inquisitor style damage system It tends to get silly when we talk about this, by silly I mean takes more work or makes more problems than it helps.

I think most would run away from a meltagun in the first place. "Oh, you are behind cover, not anymore!" as the meltagun reduces the wall to ashes.

In the current system, most characters can risk a meltagun shot because it can IK a character only with an above-average damage roll. It isn't that super-duper scary if you think about it.

But for a comparsion: the current meltagun does 2D10+10 damage/shot; our meltagun does 1D10+70 .

I think most would run away from a meltagun in the first place. "Oh, you are behind cover, not anymore!" as the meltagun reduces the wall to ashes.

In the current system, most characters can risk a meltagun shot because it can IK a character only with an above-average damage roll. It isn't that super-duper scary if you think about it.

But for a comparsion: the current meltagun does 2D10+10 damage/shot; our meltagun does 1D10+70 .

Now that puts the melta in meltagun!

I think most would run away from a meltagun in the first place. "Oh, you are behind cover, not anymore!" as the meltagun reduces the wall to ashes.

In the current system, most characters can risk a meltagun shot because it can IK a character only with an above-average damage roll. It isn't that super-duper scary if you think about it.

But for a comparsion: the current meltagun does 2D10+10 damage/shot; our meltagun does 1D10+70 .

And how did you make the changes? Arbitrarily?

I just changed the wound system in a form It needs (I think) just minor tweaks in the armoury, like full auto for Lasgun and higher plasma damage, for example.

I think most would run away from a meltagun in the first place. "Oh, you are behind cover, not anymore!" as the meltagun reduces the wall to ashes.

In the current system, most characters can risk a meltagun shot because it can IK a character only with an above-average damage roll. It isn't that super-duper scary if you think about it.

But for a comparsion: the current meltagun does 2D10+10 damage/shot; our meltagun does 1D10+70 .

You're effectively playing rocket tag. This may work for you and your group, but I would find that boring as hell. It's like high level D&D - whoever wins initiative wins the combat.

And how did you make the changes? Arbitrarily?

The new maximum damage of the weapons is equal to 10 times their Strength in the tabletop system. For example, the meltagun has Strength 8 in the TT system so it gained a damage of 70+1D10 (maximum 80). There are some refinements though: some weapons do less or more damage like boltguns do 2D10+24 (maximum 44 that is +4 points off) or autoguns do 2D10+7 (-3 off) and energy weapons have more fixed damage while projectile weapons have more D10's (example: autocannon does 10+6D10 damage while the plasma gun does 3D10+40 - they both still do 70 maximum damage).

You're effectively playing rocket tag. This may work for you and your group, but I would find that boring as hell. It's like high level D&D - whoever wins initiative wins the combat.

You still have Dodge, you can take cover or wear armor (not everyone is running around with meltaguns) or you can simply pass that combat and find another way to beat the actual challenge. Or you can use flashbangs, sniper rifles or psychic powers to take out the guy with the meltagun. So you are only playing "rocket tag" if you want to do it.

Sucks to be you if the enemy unexpectedly springs a meltagun on you, though. No amount of preparation is going to save you if he hits well and you botch your dodge roll.

Rocket tag just means that if you get hit, you're toast. In a system where a ridiculously high damage soak is ~15-20, adding +70 means you may as well not roll the damage - anyone hit by that is 100% dead. Even the other numbers you gave are crazy high.

Sucks to be you if the enemy unexpectedly springs a meltagun on you, though. No amount of preparation is going to save you if he hits well and you botch your dodge roll.

Of course! We are talking about a friggin' meltagun for crying out loud! If it hits you then you are dead (or you burn a Fate Point). It was designed to turn heavy tanks into metal-vapor... If someone ambushes you with a meltagun then you are screwed big time, and you should be.

Rocket tag just means that if you get hit, you're toast. In a system where a ridiculously high damage soak is ~15-20, adding +70 means you may as well not roll the damage - anyone hit by that is 100% dead. Even the other numbers you gave are crazy high.

The whole point of our changes is that turn supposed-to-be-deadly weapons into really-really-deadly weapons. This will make combats scary and force the players to find other solutions to their problems than mindless violence. And it is a good thing IMHO .

It's a very 'rocks fall, you die' solution though. Seems like if you're going to be this ridiculous you might as well make half the armoury instant death.

It's a very 'rocks fall, you die' solution though. Seems like if you're going to be this ridiculous you might as well make half the armoury instant death.

Yeah, but combat rarely happens at random. It is very far away from "rocks fall, you die" as the characters can see the loose rocks in the roof - if they choose to get through that section anyway then the risk is theirs to take.

Also, small arms are not that bad as armors are stronger too. An autogun does 2D10+7 damage but the basic flak armor can soak 12 damage from the get-go. With 6 points of "skin armour" (the base damage reduction of a TB3 human in our system) and 25 wounds to burn (though they are all critical wounds) you are safe from most basic weapons as long as you are not running around naked.

I would love the following:

> make Toughness bonus only count half (rounded up)

> keep regular wounds

> use the Beta1's crit table from -11 to -31 instead of the Beta2 crit table (the first 10 go into the wounds as they have no effect anyway)

> if a non-human NPC is tougher and this should be mirrored in the rules --> give him more "Wounds" than 10.

It's a very 'rocks fall, you die' solution though. Seems like if you're going to be this ridiculous you might as well make half the armoury instant death.

Yeah, sounds like it. I mean, I can see where he comes from, and if his group likes this approach .. cool.

But even apart from my own opinion on whether this is better or worse than the current system, I don't see the need to roll any d10s at all at this point. With such a massive plus, where the element of randomness would only improve the total damage by about 12%, you may as well make it a fixed value entirely. Saves you time and lets combat go even faster.

If this is because of RF, I'd suggest having it triggered whenever you roll doubles on the Attack roll.

Other than that or the Inquisitor style damage system It tends to get silly when we talk about this, by silly I mean takes more work or makes more problems than it helps.

How so?

You roll your damage, subtract armour, and then divide it by the target's TB. The result (rounded up) goes into Crits.

I don't think this is complicated at all. As an added bonus, you are more likely to incur injuries, but won't die so quickly once you have them, so lost limbs become more likely.

> make Toughness bonus only count half (rounded up)

This reminds me of another interesting alternative I noticed - letting the Primitive weapon trait affect not only armour but also bodies. Basically: Primitive weapon damage is reduced by 100% TB, but advanced (normal) weapons negate 50%.

I'm also slowly coming around to the idea of just ditching Pen entirely and turn it into extra damage.

Or making Penetration a rare weapon trait like it was in Inquisitor ("ignores 50% of the target's armour").

I'm also slowly coming around to the idea of just ditching Pen entirely and turn it into extra damage.

Or making Penetration a rare weapon trait like it was in Inquisitor ("ignores 50% of the target's armour").

I've been feeling the same way. While Pen is a realistic idea, it is also a needless extra calculation when extra damage can be added.

If this is because of RF, I'd suggest having it triggered whenever you roll doubles on the Attack roll.

No, it is because against harder targets - like a Carnifex or a tank, so stuff you usually fire your meltagun at - even that little damage counts a lot because for example a Carnifex can potentially reduce 80 points of damage to 1 with its damage resistance.

If this is because of RF, I'd suggest having it triggered whenever you roll doubles on the Attack roll.

No, it is because against harder targets - like a Carnifex or a tank, so stuff you usually fire your meltagun at - even that little damage counts a lot because for example a Carnifex can potentially reduce 80 points of damage to 1 with its damage resistance.

Point well made. Why not just make it a weapon trait then such as Penetration (X) with "x" being how many AP the penetration negates?

Even if a Carnifex absorbed 80 points of damage, Pen (3) would only allow it to absorb 78 points. What would be the difference if a normal 1d10+3 Pen 3 weapon did 1d10+6? It has the same effect. Penetration basically just allows more damage to go through.

If this is because of RF, I'd suggest having it triggered whenever you roll doubles on the Attack roll.

No, it is because against harder targets - like a Carnifex or a tank, so stuff you usually fire your meltagun at - even that little damage counts a lot because for example a Carnifex can potentially reduce 80 points of damage to 1 with its damage resistance.

Point well made. Why not just make it a weapon trait then such as Penetration (X) with "x" being how many AP the penetration negates?

Even if a Carnifex absorbed 80 points of damage, Pen (3) would only allow it to absorb 78 points. What would be the difference if a normal 1d10+3 Pen 3 weapon did 1d10+6? It has the same effect. Penetration basically just allows more damage to go through.

We made Felling into a "that's how many minimal damage you do" quality. So a weapon with Felling (8) and a maximum damage of a meager 30 would still inflict 8 wounds minimum regardless of the damage resistance of the target.

And damage resistance =/= armor. Damage resistance is effectively the "skin armor" of the target that is 6 for an average human and 50+4D10 (or 3D10, I can't remember) for a Carnifex.

No, it is because against harder targets - like a Carnifex or a tank, so stuff you usually fire your meltagun at - even that little damage counts a lot because for example a Carnifex can potentially reduce 80 points of damage to 1 with its damage resistance.

Since you are still using Wounds, I'm not sure that would make that much of a difference that it'd justify the dice-rolling in every single attack for every kind of enemy. Especially considering how few people would actually have a chance of causing that 1 point of damage in the first place - assuming not everyone is running around with meltas.

I mean, as per your earlier posts, bolters, plasma guns, even autocannons would have zero ffect on that Carnifex.

Then again, it's your system, so if that's how it works for your group, I probably should not judge it.

That being said, I actually feel stuff like Carnifexes would be an ideal candidate for characters or creatures who (in my system) might retain Wounds, in addition to the standard TB-as-Crit-buffer. So that even "puny" bolters or sustained heavy stubber fire would shave off some of that thick hide, Starship Troopers-style.

I would think creatures like the Carnifex would be something that you attacked with heavy vehicle weapons. After all, the creature is HUGE!

I like to think you'd attack a Carnifex with everything you got!

Either that or take the better part of valor and Run Away! Live to fight another day.

I mean, as per your earlier posts, bolters, plasma guns, even autocannons would have zero e ffect on that Carnifex.

Nah. Check my last post on the previous page.

But I have to admit, I'm doing this argument wrong because I only present parts of our system and not the whole thing. I'll throw a summary together soon to fix this problem .