While I'm generally overjoyed that DH2 is back with the sane system I know and love, I'm not so keen on seeing the old psychic rules back.

Old beta's system had this nice element of wager to it, and prevented high-end psykers from effortlessly dominating without ever putting themselves at risk, which is all too easy with the OW rules. I also liked the fundamental logic of bigger effects being naturally harder to pull off, whereas in the OW system, it's effectively easier for a psyker to lift a boulder than a pebble, figuratively speaking. Separate Phenomena tables for different Disciplines were just icing on the cake, but a nice addition nevertheless.

I think the old beta's system could easily work with the generally lower values of the current system by switching the +10/-10 modifiers for every point of PR reduced/pushed to +5/-5. I feel this would make the psychic powers more engaging for players and bring back the feeling that each time you try using them, you're messing with powers beyond your ken, something that just isn't there if you can manifest at Fettered perfectly safe.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

I'm all for the old system, yeah. Just swap in some more interesting powers. The powers in both betas have been fairly lackluster.

My vote is for something modular where you can mix risk and reward. I made this last beta and I'm copy/pasting it as It saves me explaining. (costs and other numbers need work)

When you role to manifest you compare you role to both manifest (at +10 per PR) and risk (at +10 per PR,) if you fall your risk roll then you have to check for perils if the gap between the tens and the units on the manifest roll is equal or less than your DoF, if you pass on risk then the player may modify any perils roll by DoS-PR (inspired by BC Gift of the gods modified by Infamy Bonus.) This way a high PR is more likely to both make the power work and let the warp leak though. Using the most basic manifestations disciplines is a +0 roll to manifest and -40 to risk.

The Telepathy powers are read thoughts and send thoughts. If we assume read lets you hear suffice thoughts (10 meters per PR) and send lets you use words rather than just feelings (again 10 meters per PR) at 200 XP each with Increased range x10 (-10 to manifest, double any risk increase, 200 XP needs PR 3) influence emotion (+10 risk, 300 XP needs PR 2 and send thoughts) mind trick (-10 manifest, +10 risk, 500 XP needs influence emotion, PR 3 and Discipline Training (Telepathy) 1) puppet (-20 manifest, +10 risk, 750 XP needs mind trick and PR 5) mind probe (+10 to risk, 300 XP needs PR 2)

The Psychokinetic power has make fire and control fire (10 meters per PR). I think both are worth 100 XP each. From here a fire ball (200 XP needs both) heat ray (-10 manifest, 300 XP, double range needs fire ball, Discipline Training (Psychokinetic) 1, PR 2) melta (-20 manifest, +10 risk, 500 XP, half range, melta needs heat ray, Discipline Training (Psychokinetic) 2, PR 4) explode (-10 manifest, +20 risk, Blast equal to PR, 500 XP needs PR 5)

Telekinesis lets you move up to 5kg per PR with a range of 5 meters per PR for 200 XP. Bolt (100 XP) double range (-10 manifest, 100 XP) crush (200 XP needs PR 2) TK weapon (200 XP needs bolt and PR2) double lifting stangth (+10 risk 300 XP needs PR 4)

It's not ready yet but it's the sort of thing I want.

Sounds needlessly complex. I'm all against rolling two dice when one die suffices.

Absolutely with you on this one, Morangias. I've always disliked the +5xPR rating system they brought in from Rogue Trader onwards (it just about worked for Rogue Trader (without the added stuff from the Navis Primer) but deathwatch onwards (especially deathwatch itself) was a mess).

The beta system was much better.

As Tom Cruise says, the power could do with work, so a combination of the original and new beta powers would be fine (plus maybe some simple minor power system as long as it really is minor stuff), but the existing system really needs to change for something better, with the original beta system a good starting point.

Sounds needlessly complex. I'm all against rolling two dice when one die suffices.

Sorry I was heading out to work and didn't have time to check or edit but it is one roll you just check for both risk and manifest at once.

Do you mean "role" as in the part the PC plays in his/her cell, or "roll" as in roll of the dice?

Fixed, thanks.

I'm all for the old system, yeah. Just swap in some more interesting powers. The powers in both betas have been fairly lackluster.

These powers are just ripped from the 6th Ed. Rulebook. Its incredibly lazy. It makes sense for tabletop due to pacing and scale but for an pen and paper it'd be nice for them to move away from "powers" and towards something like fields of manipulation. No psykers in Black Library books "cast" the same powers over and over. They apply their skills in different ways dependent on the situation.

It would be interesting to treat each school of Psyker powers as a skill. Having X ranks in Pyromancy unlocks Y uses of the discipline, which are more generic, adaptable manifestations rather than purpose built powers.

It would be interesting to treat each school of Psyker powers as a skill. Having X ranks in Pyromancy unlocks Y uses of the discipline, which are more generic, adaptable manifestations rather than purpose built powers.

I like that...

I wonder, if things did go down that path, would it be too outrageous to make it that WP isn't the only characteristic effecting manifestation? You could easily make it that, say, Divination is governed by Perception rolls, and Biomancy is governed by Toughness.

I posted a while back about having each power divided into fettered, unfettered and pushed based on what the power does. Unfettered are all of the narrative uses and only invoke perils risk when used in combat. Unfettered powers are all specifically useful for combat or very obviously combat useful. Unfettered powers also always utilize Psy rating for their effects. Pushed powers are all powered up versions of unfettered powers that increase numbers or add additional effects. This allows plenty of story use for psykers (I had a lot of fun making up cool divination powers, like being able to roll Psy rating to say your character is not surprised by a new revelation and gets +10 due to planing for it. I also themed all of the powers. Divination is knowledge, biomancy is mastery of the body, telepathy is mastery of the mind, telekinesis is technology and control, and pyromancy is destruction and creation. I'd really prefer that FFG use some creativity on the powers, but maybe they're stuck not being able to make up new things.

It would be interesting to treat each school of Psyker powers as a skill. Having X ranks in Pyromancy unlocks Y uses of the discipline, which are more generic, adaptable manifestations rather than purpose built powers.

I like that...

+1

It would be interesting to treat each school of Psyker powers as a skill. Having X ranks in Pyromancy unlocks Y uses of the discipline, which are more generic, adaptable manifestations rather than purpose built powers.

I was considering something like that, since I've generally grown to dislike Psy Rating as a trait - it was pretty okay in DH1 when having more PR gave more choices and more dangers, but from RT onwards it became both the thing that ultimately makes psykers overpowered and this very artificial exp tax on the usage of psychic powers.

Scaling psychic powers would be a hassle, though.

I'd maybe consider keeping PR as a means of measuring raw psychic ability. I mean, when you're totally redoing how Psychic Powers are manifested, you can easily diminish the overpowered issues with the trait.

As well, removing powers removes a lot of the XP sink that is playing a Psyker, which could be a bad thing. Removing Psy Rating only exacerbates that.

Yeah, I'm not actually sure I'd like the removal of discrete powers. Honestly, I've never considered them really constraining, at least not in a bad way. The ones that feel like they should do many things usually do, the ones that don't seem widely applicable usually have a nice effect when they are - it works for me.

Oh, and re: powers in DH2 being ripped straight from TT. It might be a license thing, not unlike many original powers in DH1 were ripped straight from Necromunda (or so I heard, not really a TT fan). If that's the case, it'd be hard to hold it against FFG.

A lot of good ideas being thrown around here. I certainly think there is merit in trying to make the psychic powers come off more than just WP. Too often I've seen psykers just max WP and use it to cover all the other parts of the game more effectively than other classes can.

As Tom Cruise says, coming off other stats is a great idea, and means that the psyker has to focus on a range of thing and have to have a number of good stats to cover all the psychic powers or can focus on just one thing (giving a reason why psykers are often mono school) while also being good at something else, like lores, melee or shooting.

As Morangias says, the actual powers might be controlled by outside factors. In of itself I don't have a problem with that, just that they make sense in the frame work of an RPG rather than just doing the same as table top.

I like what SublimeShadow said about trying to catch the flavour of the fluff rather than the table top. It has often been mentioned in the books that psykers can do powerful things that other people can't do with guns or tech (which is good, psykers should have something to make them play more than just a gun on legs), but often pay a price. One of my favourite ones is that they often stun or fatigue themselves or take a few moments setting up a power. How much more interesting would fights involving psykers be if you had to work to protect your psyker in their 'down rounds' before getting the benefit of something powerful (or rush to get the enemy before they do something nasty, needing lores to understand what they are trying to do and how long you've got).

In terms of different characteristics, the best I can think of is this if you wanted to give each discipline its own governing characteristic

They're a little iffy, but there's not a lot of room to work with if you want to give each a separate characteristic.

In terms of different characteristics, the best I can think of is this if you wanted to give each discipline its own governing characteristic

Biomancy (T)

Divination (Per)

Pyromancy (WP)

Telekinesis (Int)

Telepathy (Fel)

They're a little iffy, but there's not a lot of room to work with if you want to give each a separate characteristic.

Certainly looks like a good start. Extending on this idea, you could have the power roll coming of the primary stat, but the effect be based on another.

A good example being Pyromancy, the power roll could be BS (because it's about focusing on a single target or group) but the damage is based on your WP bonus (because that's how strongly you create the flames). This way psykers have to do more than just max one stat.

In terms of different characteristics, the best I can think of is this if you wanted to give each discipline its own governing characteristic

Biomancy (T)

Divination (Per)

Pyromancy (WP)

Telekinesis (Int)

Telepathy (Fel)

They're a little iffy, but there's not a lot of room to work with if you want to give each a separate characteristic.

Certainly looks like a good start. Extending on this idea, you could have the power roll coming of the primary stat, but the effect be based on another.

A good example being Pyromancy, the power roll could be BS (because it's about focusing on a single target or group) but the damage is based on your WP bonus (because that's how strongly you create the flames). This way psykers have to do more than just max one stat.

I'm a little confused as to what you two are suggesting. The psychic powers already have characteristic prerequisites similar to what Tom Cruise posted. Are you suggesting that, in addition to this, change some of the focus power tests to be something other than WP?

Telekinesis could also be BS or even Ag. Great ideas that are getting brought up.

I'm a little confused as to what you two are suggesting. The psychic powers already have characteristic prerequisites similar to what Tom Cruise posted. Are you suggesting that, in addition to this, change some of the focus power tests to be something other than WP?

Yes, that's exactly it. The divination school already has this a little bit with some powers being off perception, but it seems like an interesting extension to try this for all the schools with different core stats for each.

I can get behind that. It'd be nice if there was more to building a psyker than just stacking WP and calling it a day.

On the other hand (and I have nothing agenst psykers needing more than one stat) we could get some disciplines needing hard to get cheap stats or the discipline using Willpower being overused.