I know that in Beta1 it was quite much to be able to increase characteristics 10-times by +5, but now back at 4-times I think it is not much...
Thinking about being able to play Inquisitors, which also integrates Ascensions level characters somehow on higher ranks, maybe it would be good to allow for 2 more increases, which would make 6 in total.
What do you think ?
If we start at 20+2d10 then fine.
Starting at 25+2d10 is better I think, otherwise Acoyltes feel too weak.
But you are right - that would lead to 5 possible increases compared to ascension + DH1.
I like it when the players feel weak early on, it's funny and if I want them to feel strong I'll start them with more xp.
But 20 is too weak in my opinion.
Given that acolytes usually are not the weakest of mankind, but rather promising aspirants who are supposed to get a job done.
Maybe but one of the first things I buy is characteristics, the 20 will only matter on stats you don't buy up.
Personally I'm a fan of LESS advances, if anything. Currently in my own houserules I've got characteristics ranging from 30-45, with three +5 advances available, meaning you cap out naturally at 60. That leaves a lot of room at the upper end of the scale for supernaturally capable characters, without breaking into the triple digits.
Personally I'm a fan of LESS advances, if anything. Currently in my own houserules I've got characteristics ranging from 30-45, with three +5 advances available, meaning you cap out naturally at 60. That leaves a lot of room at the upper end of the scale for supernaturally capable characters, without breaking into the triple digits.
This also makes more sense when adding Space Marines to the mix.
But 20 is too weak in my opinion.
Given that acolytes usually are not the weakest of mankind, but rather promising aspirants who are supposed to get a job done.
2d10+20 has been the base in the first 2 WHFRPGs as well as DH1 and OW.
Rogue Traders are rather more rare and special than accolytes, and they only get 2d10+25. Indeed Astartes only get 2d10+30. Going to 2d10+25 is just power inflation.
DH is only really relevant as a "low-power", "everyman" game, so let's keep it that way.
Besides, 2d10+20 is still better than many within the Imperium of Man - I seem to recall several of the NPCs from DH1 having characteristics well below 20.
OW also has a lot of built in characteristic increases in characteristics, so in reality it's a bit higher than 20+2d10.
I think the beta's 30+2d10 system is fine. Giving players a high chance of success is a good thing. Players confident their characters can handle something will do interesting things, and allows the GM to stack interesting negative modifiers on them without torpedoing any chance of success.
DH is only really relevant as a "low-power", "everyman" game, so let's keep it that way.
This is probably something that warrants its own thread, but whatever. I've got an important question. WHY should DH be a low power every-man game? I've never actually seen much logical reason for the game to play out as Call of Cthulhu in space. Why in the hell are the Inquisition, an organisation with unlimited resources and unlimited authority, recruiting low ranking nobodies and handing them a bunch of shoddy equipment before dumping them in a mission area blind?
It's **** fun, I'll grant that. I like the gritty struggle to survive and succeed against overwhelming odds. But the Inquisition hiring nobodies and outfitting them horribly never made much sense to me.
Correct ! The average soldier who ist recruited by the inquisition should be more capable and better equiped than the "avergae" only war guardsman in my opinion.
Just because the Inquisition can CHOOSE who they get.
Why in the hell are the Inquisition, an organisation with unlimited resources and unlimited authority, recruiting low ranking nobodies and handing them a bunch of shoddy equipment before dumping them in a mission area blind?
It's **** fun, I'll grant that. I like the gritty struggle to survive and succeed against overwhelming odds.
Just answered your own question, didn't you?
But the Inquisition hiring nobodies and outfitting them horribly never made much sense to me.
Goodness no! But this is Warhammer! It doesn't make sense. It's pure over-the-top, about as conncted to reality as White Wolf's Exalted I mean, try to think about space marines and the resources they consume? Their just silly. And still the icon of the line.
"40k makes no sense!!!" has always seemed like a weak excuse to me. Sure, the canon is wildly inconsistent, but FFG content does tend to have some internal consistency and logic, and I'm not seeing any logic behind this one.
"40k makes no sense!!!" has always seemed like a weak excuse to me. Sure, the canon is wildly inconsistent, but FFG content does tend to have some internal consistency and logic, and I'm not seeing any logic behind this one.
They have. As they need for an RPG. However, it also means that to embrace the setting, you have to leave behind a lot of common sense.
Common sense is by far overrated
Common sense is by far overrated
And very uncommon, really.
I still feel starting at OW levels (not DH1) with 6 upgrades is good. It lets me and others have the gritty struggle to survive and succeed against overwhelming odds and those 2 +3s and 1 +5 mean their are only a few stats below 30 after spending xp. I do play role 10 times drop the lowest, that could be why I don't see this as too weak.
Common sense is by far overrated
And very uncommon, really.
Sometimes I think its something from myths and fairytales. Like Unicorns. Or Fairies. Or Chaos Terminator Space Marines.
I've always felt that the issue with DH being grim and gritty has been the over the top weaponry and talents. No one was pulling out a las cannon and nailing cthulhu for a million damage and setting fire to everyone nearby while another guy sliced in half an entire horde of zombies while being effectively impossible for them to even touch. You can't really have these things in a grim and gritty game while keeping the theme. A quick note for would-be authors: you can't reproduce the feel of a work just by copying the setting and adding in a bunch of "tropes." Remember how weird it was for people to mourn killing someone in the GTA games after you had spent five minutes traveling to a mission by pretending pedestrians are a sidewalk? Same issue.
If you want Dark Heresy to be grim and gritty, you have to take out any combat talents that aren't just about survival. Psychic powers need to be very powerful and invoke the warp regularly. Good technology should be as rare as a psyker and also risk blowing you up at any second. All knowledge should also risk blowing you up. Basically, you should feel like trying to do anything but survive will risk your violet death. This is a great style for one-shots and games that aren't built around a lot of character growth.
The way that dark heresy is actually leaning is toward gonzo no-scoping cthulhu three times in the face as you body surf a crowd of the emperors faithful augmented to throw you and your 20 melta bombs straight into the Thing's maw. That is awesome, and more conducive to a style of play where you want to see your characters build up. You can't really just transition from grim and gritty to gonzo just by leveling up. You have to commit to a style and keep to it, otherwise the whole game will be unbalanced. This is part of why so many games break down at high level play, due to a difficulty maintaining the theme of play.
As a note, although the FFG games have been leaning toward gonzo, they still have issues with the grim and gritty theme that unbalance the game, such as the high rates of failure, massive rift in human capabilities and monster capabilities, and the use of the d100 in general. Ideally, FFG, would put out a narrative chapter advising how to fit the game to different themes and put the current narrative rules in their own "investigation" chapter and flesh them out as actual rules. But that of course would be a lot of work.
This why I would suggest "leveling up" being very minor upgrades to the character through skills or talents that are just good enough to allow the player to take a temporary deep breath in knowing that they at least were able to aquire one or two tools to hopefully prevent their deaths next mission. A high level character in a grim and gritty setting should be farrrrr from invincible and instead simply more experienced in surviving. He's "been around the block a few times" or is more prepared with aquired skills and talents that don't make him the terminator. Instead, experienced characters should feel as though they are on borrowed time and Inquisitors should especially know from their vast wisdom that it is inevitable that they will most likely die horribly, possibly and ironically even from someone that posed a very low threat in the first place. All it takes is one small mistake.