In terms of equipment that AREN'T ships, does the AoR book come with weaponry and armour specific to the Rebels and the Empire?

Not specifically. It keeps everything generic as it is in EotE. There are a couple of new pieces (vehicle mines) but nothing really new. Armour and weapons are still generic as it is the customization that is supposed to define them.

Fair enough. Generic works for me, though, so it's fine!

We'll instead use the money to buy an entire game (from someone else.)

Wow. You know someone that puts out an entire game in one shot. That's awesome. Have to let me know what it is.

I am anticipating the release of the full AoR book. I have EotE, but the tire of bandit adventure is pretty much worn bald for me...

But a good military style campaign is really appealing. So here is my question for anyone who has the beta. I don't need to know every little detail, but how is AoR for setting information for the militaries and military ops? Do they have many details on organization of Navy's and Armies? I understand that mass ground combats and large fleet actions are not covered, but how do they approach smaller actions and how they interface with the PC's?

edit: arrrggghhhh spelling

Much like the EotE beta, there is little to no setting information. I expect, much like the EotE book, that the AoR Corebook will be about twice the size of the beta book as they include setting and other information. They may include some information on how a group can influence a large scale combat, or how a mass combat in space can be done to affect the smaller actions of the PCs. I don't think we will see much in the way of running a mass combat as this is a rpg and not a tabletop wargame. Much of that may be left to people to narrate or come up with their own take.

Much like the EotE beta, there is little to no setting information. I expect, much like the EotE book, that the AoR Corebook will be about twice the size of the beta book as they include setting and other information. They may include some information on how a group can influence a large scale combat, or how a mass combat in space can be done to affect the smaller actions of the PCs. I don't think we will see much in the way of running a mass combat as this is a rpg and not a tabletop wargame. Much of that may be left to people to narrate or come up with their own take.

Oh, I agree that an RPG is not a Tactical wargame, and I wasn't meaning that.

I was referring to the type of information you need to run a good game in world. For instance if the PC’s are members of an Imperial Army scouts operating on a fringe world, what are the ranks used? How are scout squads organized? What is the composition of an Imperial Storm trooper squad as opposed to a Regular Army squad? What are the Imperial Navy ranks and structure?

None of this needs to be super in-depth, but just enough to give a GM a foundation. Contrary to popular belief on a SW related forum, many people that would be interested in playing AoR probably have only seen the movies and TV shows and have never read any of the novels or comics.

As for mass combat or fleet action stuff, I wasn’t meaning wargamy type rules, I meant advice/rules that enhance the application of PC skills/abilities into the larger action.

The old Last Unicorn Games Star Trek RPG had a really good section/chapter on tying all the PC’s directly into the action both as command crew aboard a single starship in combat and as well as the flag crew of a squadron or flotilla in the Dominion War.

Having the GM wing it via narrative is never a bad thing and we all do it because it is part of the way RPGs work. But there is a little something extra when a player can actually use one of his PC’s skills/abilities right off of his character sheet and influence the big picture.

Plus to be truthful, I can easily rattle off the composition and structure of a Trek squadron of ships of the DS9 time line with no problem. I know the rank and organization structure off the top of my head too. But I am not familiar enough to do the same for Star Wars. I loved the shows but only know of three types of Star Destroyers. The Republican Star Destroyer from clone wars. The Start Destroyer and Super Start Destroyer from the movies. For fighters I pretty much know the ones in the movies and the XWing minis game. As far as ground fighting I know the big walker and the little walker and the motorcycle analogs used on Endor in the movie.

To run a campaign based on the military side of things (which is what I thought AoR is supposed to be), most people will need some kind of overview of things military in the Empire. At least the common things. And also some guidance of a PC’s actions and skill as they pertain to military situations.

Otherwise they could have just added some military based backgrounds to EotE.

At least from my very uniformed understanding of AoR. So I am basically asking what kind of information does AoR have about the militaries and military skills/abilities use.

And I do understand that a lot of this type information could be considered fluff to be added later to the corebook.

Fair enough. Generic works for me, though, so it's fine!

Well, the Starships & Vehicles chapter has several vehicles that are specific to the Alliance (Alliance combat speeder, X-Wing, Mon Cal Cruiser) and the Empire (TIE Intercepter and various Star Destroyers), so there is some "faction specific" material.

As mouthymerc noted, the personal equipment chapter sticks towards the general side of things, though it does offer a few new pieces of equipment for players.

I was referring to the type of information you need to run a good game in world. For instance if the PC’s are members of an Imperial Army scouts operating on a fringe world, what are the ranks used? How are scout squads organized? What is the composition of an Imperial Storm trooper squad as opposed to a Regular Army squad? What are the Imperial Navy ranks and structure?

We'll know when it comes out, but much like EotE since the book will be sharing space with the core rules, have races, classes, equipment and ships in it, do triple duty as a GM's guide with info on how to run a game and have a sample adventure in it, do not expect any one thing to be covered well. So like EotE which has some setting info in, I expect AoR to have background but due to space be very shallow and details like squad organizations and rank structure to be very hit or mostly miss.

... so right in line with some of the lore, huh.

As has been described elsewhere, the inherent issues with running a military unit in a tabletop RPG are pretty much why WEG d6 flat-out recommended that players play SpecOps (as opposed to SpecForce).

I doubt they will go heavy into ranks or unit size and such. That will be left more to the GMs to decide on. If it does show up it will be in a supplement.

None of my group will be buying the book. We were pretty unimpressed with a payed beta but played along, unenthusiastic about $15 for some dice and the adventure costing extra because it was hard cover, but we're all disgusted by a book which really just boils down to a couple dozen pages for new classes and ships being the price of an entire game (which we already bought). We'll instead use the money to buy an entire game (from someone else.)

You know, I've tried several times to parse this paragraph without sucess. What the hell are you trying to say?

"We were pretty unimpressed with a payed beta but played along"

Meaning you didn't like the way FFG did the beta. Fair enough, nobody held a gun to your head and made you buy it.

"unenthusiastic about $15 for some dice"

So buy the dice roller app, get one of the free dice rolling programs, or get some D10s and use the translation chart. There are alternatives.

"and the adventure costing extra because it was hard cover,"

Wait - your argument suddenly switches gears and starts complaining about EotE? And you complain that there's too much content and that it's hard cover?

Please pass the douchie on the left hand side.

"but we're all disgusted by a book which really just boils down to a couple dozen pages for new classes and ships being the price of an entire game (which we already bought)."

Wait - okay, we're back to AoR suddenly? Seriously dude, pick an argument and stick with it.

Anyway, only a couple dozen pages? Assuming more or less the same content ratio as EotE, a 450 page book will have 20 pages of canned game, 10 pages of (woefully inadequate) index and charts, 40 pages of new NPCs (but lets be generous and say 20 of that is recycled NPCs), 50 pages of (most likely new) settings, organizations and planets. We know the force is about 75% new powers and abilities, so we''l call that 10 pages, plus all new ships and vehicles (call it 20 pages). Oh, and don't forget the races and careers - about 60 pages.

The conflict and combat section is likely to remain unchanged (about 17 old pages).as is the How to GM section (40 ish pages) and the Skills and Talents section (70-ish pages). Oh, and the What is RPGing section will probably be more or less the same - call it 30 pages. Hell, throw in another 30 pages of random recycled content that I missed in skimming just to bolster your case. That's about 200 pages of new and new-ish content versus 150 of recycled content and game engine.

Yeah, Bob Marley just called. He'd like his weed back.

We'll know when it comes out, but much like EotE since the book will be sharing space with the core rules, have races, classes, equipment and ships in it, do triple duty as a GM's guide with info on how to run a game and have a sample adventure in it, do not expect any one thing to be covered well. So like EotE which has some setting info in, I expect AoR to have background but due to space be very shallow and details like squad organizations and rank structure to be very hit or mostly miss.

Yep, but if EotE is some or shallow than I will be well satisfied for the a core book. For me with my limited Star Wars knowledge, the setting part of EotE started with the equipment chapter on pg 147. Another 440+ page book of that quality will do just fine for me.

... so right in line with some of the lore, huh.

As has been described elsewhere, the inherent issues with running a military unit in a tabletop RPG are pretty much why WEG d6 flat-out recommended that players play SpecOps (as opposed to SpecForce).

Well I can understand the issues that could arise, but I have run a lot of military style games for years. Everything from Queen and Country games set in British Empire to World War 2. So that is not an issue for me. I just am hoping they have some general information such as a rank chart. It sounds a lot better to use a Star Wars canon rank rather than me slapping Staff Sergeant onto someone. Again, not a criticism, just a wish…

I doubt they will go heavy into ranks or unit size and such. That will be left more to the GMs to decide on. If it does show up it will be in a supplement.

As I mentioned up above, I am not looking for volumes of information. Just enough details so I can hang my hat on things. If I have just a rank chart I can easily improvise the rest.

I am looking forward to AoR much more than I did EotE.

Well I can understand the issues that could arise, but I have run a lot of military style games for years. Everything from Queen and Country games set in British Empire to World War 2. So that is not an issue for me. I just am hoping they have some general information such as a rank chart. It sounds a lot better to use a Star Wars canon rank rather than me slapping Staff Sergeant onto someone. Again, not a criticism, just a wish…

That was admittedly a snide remark on my part in regards to the canon ranking systems, which are complicated to the point that there's a Star Wars Technical Commentaries piece just for the Rebels' insignia, as well as two separate ones for the Imperials' ranking and insignia. TL;DR: As the Imperial insignia Wookiepedia article puts it: "The rank system used in Expanded Universe material is, in contrast to the films, largely consistent and systematic."

I imagine that you're looking for one in the vein of what the WEG books offered?

Regarding large-scale battles, I'd be nice to have some suggestions on how the PCs can weigh in on the course of the battle. Some guidlines that would line up with, say, how Obi & Ani were part of the battle over Coruscant in Ep3. They were part of it, but didn't decide the whole thing.

Well, in the case of Anakin and Obi-Wan, I'd imagine that it would have been run as per normal: a mission within the setting of a battlefield (their mission was to rescue the Chancellor, not perform any battle-specific jobs); now, if you're saying that guidelines to help determine how PCs can participate more directly? I agree.

I generally agree with the thrust of what Shakespearian_Soldier said; in essence, if Anakin and Obi-wan are the PCs, then what they did was a big "obstacle course"/"chase scene" with the Invisible Hand's hangar as the PCs' destination and with minion groups on both sides.

Mind you, based on current canon a substantial portion of the space battle if not the majority (and the majority of the overall battle) played out before the PCs arrived.

perhaps a better example would be if the PCs were in the trenches at Hoth, or part of the starfighters at Endor, etc. after all, one A-wing pilot (accidentally) took down the Executor.

Hmm... at that point the question is "who are the PCs in those scenarios?" For example, if we take that one A-wing pilot -- name's Arvel Crynyd -- to have been a one-being PC party, the Wookiepedia article for him states that he'd been leading a strafing run on the hull of the Executor when his A-wing was hit, but that before that his squadron as a whole had been disabling Star Destroyers' ion cannons to give the Alliance fleet a comparative advantage.

The overall objective for Rebel PCs "in the trenches at Hoth" would be "maul the Imps that are in front of us as hard as possible," then at some point "get out as intact as possible."

Well I can understand the issues that could arise, but I have run a lot of military style games for years. Everything from Queen and Country games set in British Empire to World War 2. So that is not an issue for me. I just am hoping they have some general information such as a rank chart. It sounds a lot better to use a Star Wars canon rank rather than me slapping Staff Sergeant onto someone. Again, not a criticism, just a wish…

That was admittedly a snide remark on my part in regards to the canon ranking systems, which are complicated to the point that there's a Star Wars Technical Commentaries piece just for the Rebels' insignia, as well as two separate ones for the Imperials' ranking and insignia. TL;DR: As the Imperial insignia Wookiepedia article puts it: "The rank system used in Expanded Universe material is, in contrast to the films, largely consistent and systematic."

I imagine that you're looking for one in the vein of what the WEG books offered?

Well, I am a bit thick when it comes to forums and implied meaning so anything 'snide' zipped right past me...

But yes,I think. I remember that WEG produced some fantastic books, but it has been a while so I really can't recall details. But as I don't think I am that unusual in my lack of detailed knowledge about the SW universe, anything color and details FFG coudl add to the books would go a long way in helping new GM's and old GM's new to SW run better games.

Regarding large-scale battles, I'd be nice to have some suggestions on how the PCs can weigh in on the course of the battle. Some guidlines that would line up with, say, how Obi & Ani were part of the battle over Coruscant in Ep3. They were part of it, but didn't decide the whole thing.

Exactly. When you read a novel, characters are able to directly affect the large battles, not just with their personal combat skills as they take out X enemy troops, but the overall battle as they deftly maneuver combat units at the battalion or brigade level. In space opera they not only command/pilot the ship they are on, but their brilliant use of knowledge and tactical skill shatters fleets.

What I would like to see is definitely not a system to resolve large scale combat where we would fight it out like wargame on the table. I would like to see a system/method by which the players would be able to use their PC’s abilities as recorded on their character sheet to directly influence a large scale battle.

I know that most GM’s tend to run these via the narrative. I do too. But that is essentially another way of saying we all just wing it. Nothing wrong with that at all, but I would like to see a good useable written in a rule book method for it. There is a very good chance it is better than the way I do things now, and even if it isn’t, it could contain some great ideas to improve the way I do it now.

now, if you're saying that guidelines to help determine how PCs can participate more directly? I agree.

Yes

At the command level, not the squad level. Squad level participation is pretty much the default mode of a military RPG. I am looking for methods to allow PC involvement at the larger scale to be meaningful.

I'm going to take a wild stab at this and think that in the Endor example, the movie-character-as-PC would be Ackbar, or in the Hoth example would be Leia and/or Rieekan?

I'm going to take a wild stab at this and think that in the Endor example, the movie-character-as-PC would be Ackbar, or in the Hoth example would be Leia and/or Rieekan?

Yes

Another good topic. This is the kind of stuff that's actually useful to me as GM, unlike the endless debates about a Disney cartoon I'll never even watch. Let's stick to the game, huh?

I think EoE would segue pretty seamlessly into a rebel game, but I'#m keeping mine separate. The characters might bump into each other though. The EoE group lacked a PC with Pilot/Planetary, so I let one player use his new AoR character, who is a hotshot racer, when we ran the Corellian speedbike scenario.

I also plan to have the leader of our AoR team to hire the EoE team to kidnap her possibly-Force-sensitive daughter from the Alliance before she gets enrolled in Project Emergent...

Hmmm... I can imagine an EotE scenario where it would be important or beneficial for the players to have some degree of not just control but 'relevance' in the overall outcome of a wider-ranging battle than just whatever kills they rack up personally.

For example, canon gives us the time that Han Solo -- due to the Millenium Falcon partially dismantled -- personally leading five (5) outlaw techs in six (6) Z-95 Mk 1s (predating the iconic AF4 in the EotE book) against a four-ship (4) flight of Corporate Sector Authority fighters from a Marauder-class corvette (ID'd as such in the corresponding WEG D6 book)... and for his success, albeit with three (3) of the outlaw techs KIA, Solo's reward was the sought-after upgrades for the Falcon.

Now, while that was a combat that was small enough in scale that it could be played out entirely under EotE rules -- whether or not using Minion groups on both sides, the outlaw techs didn't engage the CSA capital ship -- what if we scale up the idea beyond "abstraction through Minion groups"? What if it's the sort of thing where the team's "Obligation-holding NPC" has declared that they won't get what they're looking for (credits, gear, starship hardware, and/or reduction of Obligation) unless enough of the other outlaw ships and their cargos make it away too?