I most certainly don't want to be rude or insensitive to anyone, and understand that this new direction bothers some of the members that liked the "old new system".

However, I believe that now that we are all aware that FFG has abandoned the previous beta and instead changed direction to the more compatible approach most of us wanted, I think it would be a good time to focus on what is good and bad in the new system, in order to improve it and see how much can be changed to have it's own flair without creating an excessively dense system, as some have already pointed out.

I just downloaded the book and didn't have the opportunity to read it, but the first thing I'd point out would be adding a proper "untouchability" to the Untouchables.

What do you say some of us start a new thread with this particular topic in mind?

A lot of people have been mischaracterizing the position of the people not thrilled about this new beta. We're not saying we want to go back to the first beta or that the first beta was better. Stop saying that's what we're saying.

We're disappointed with this new beta because it is not a new game. It's a revision of a game we've already played. Some people want a new game.

Disappointing as expected.

This effectively is Only War 1.1 Dark Heresy Edition.

Not getting any more of my money for this copy/paste product - I am out.

GZ I just wanted to apologize for thinking you were joking when you said FFG was just going to reprint OW and call it a day.

Just to reinforce that there are people, that actually like Beta 2.0.

I like Beta 2.0

FFG asked for feedback.

FFG received feedback.

FFG acted on that feedback.

It's a fair point, and I wish I had spoken up sooner. All I can do now is hope that it's not too late for the quiet testers to be heard.

This is nonsense, you have no idea whether the people who disliked the old beta were more or less vocal than those who liked it. I was one of the people who disliked it but the complaints had actually stopped after about week 2 because those people made their opinions known, thought that we wouldn't be getting any change.

For all you know the people who disliked the old beta were the silent majority so please stop insisting that this was a minority ruining things for the majority because you (and I) have no idea if that is true or not.

It is very likely that most of the complaints about the Beta were made not on the forums but directly to FFG via email as the complain on the board was no where near enough to make the drastic changes that were made. There was probably 20 people at most making complaints on this board for a couple of weeks. To scrap this it would have had to be many many more people than that constantly making complaints.

Just to reinforce that there are people, that actually like Beta 2.0.

I like Beta 2.0

+1

Just to reinforce that there are people, that actually like Beta 2.0.

I like Beta 2.0

+1

I reserve judgement on Beta 2.0. There are parts of it I like and parts of it I don't like. I'm glad to see many of things I disliked about the old Beta removed, things I did like saved and yes, I am glad to see greater compatibility with the earlier rules sets. I'm sorry to see some things I like from before gone, some things I disliked retained and certain things I dislike about the OW rules set incorporated. All of that is open for review and discussion... as it should be as part of the Beta process.

Just to reinforce that there are people, that actually like Beta 2.0.

I like Beta 2.0

+1

I reserve judgement on Beta 2.0. There are parts of it I like and parts of it I don't like. I'm glad to see many of things I disliked about the old Beta removed, things I did like saved and yes, I am glad to see greater compatibility with the earlier rules sets. I'm sorry to see some things I like from before gone, some things I disliked retained and certain things I dislike about the OW rules set incorporated. All of that is open for review and discussion... as it should be as part of the Beta process.

Common sense wins the day.

Common sense wins the day.

Just to reinforce that there are people, that actually like Beta 2.0.

I like Beta 2.0

+1

I reserve judgement on Beta 2.0. There are parts of it I like and parts of it I don't like. I'm glad to see many of things I disliked about the old Beta removed, things I did like saved and yes, I am glad to see greater compatibility with the earlier rules sets. I'm sorry to see some things I like from before gone, some things I disliked retained and certain things I dislike about the OW rules set incorporated. All of that is open for review and discussion... as it should be as part of the Beta process.

Because of this, i'm immediately going to order and download the new beta2

Massive downer on the latest issue of the Dark Heresy Beta.

When I paid $20 for the original Beta, I got my monies worth. For this I didn't and more importantly wouldn't pay anything more. I have already got Only War and Dark Heresy, so why pay more.

The AP and Wounds system needed tweaking as did the Talent trees, but instead they junked the whole lot in favour of making it Only War with Inquisitors. Who is going to buy the new book, essential only for the information on a brand new sector. Certainly not me, even if I get $20 off the price. It wouldn't be worth the money. The old Beta actually had something worth buying, this Beta does not.

Can I get Beta1.5?

I prefer some things from Beta1.0, and was happy to see some things removed in Beta2.0

Mind you, I still haven't read everything, but these are the things that stand out most to me from what I have read.

Positive changes (in my opinion):

- Wounds system back in. I didn't dislike the 1.0 version, I thought it was unique and interesting, but it took up too much game time at times

- AP system gone. Same reason as above really, I didn't hate it, but confused the hell out of my players.

- Weapons have their range increments back. The loss of this in 1.0 was weird and unrealistic imo. The update to weapons in general is good.

Negative changes:

- Don't like Aptitudes at all. I liked 1.0's list of Characteristic and Skills costs listed by Role, and being multiplied by skill rank or characteristic bonus. Working out their costs based off Aptitudes isn't too difficult, but still annoying. Aptitudes were the biggest problem my group had with Only War over the previous games.

- For the same reason above, I miss the Talent Trees. While not as flexible or granting as much freedom as the Aptitude system, it neatly catagorised the talents into themes, had no restrictions on which trees you wanted to start purchasing from, and the XP costs were all listed on 1 page (including a basic summary), instead of flipping between the costs by Tier, the Tier list, and then to the Talent section to see what it does.

EDIT: Skills also reverting to 1-characteristic tests 'unless GM says otherwise'. Allowing multiple characteristics for different uses of a skill was good.

Glad it didn't change, or change much:

- Subtlety. And this is compatible with nearly any 'investigation'-type game ever, and might work for Rogue Trader as well (although their Subtlety would probably start and have a 'resting point' of about 10)

- Character creation. I liked this 3-step process, but that might be because my group likes Rogue Trader the most.

EDIT: Threat ratings for enemies. Makes making encounters a little easier.

I like that everyone who advocated for this change said it's good for the system to undergo a "slow evolution", yet this seems to be completely unevolved from Only War.

Nobody ever wanted a carbon copy of Only War . What people on my side of the fence advocated was always an iterative, evolutionary approach. If there has been no evolution at all , DH2 Beta 2.0 will fall flat, and will likely be unappealing to all camps.

For example, I can see that Dodge is apparently back to being a flat check. It never made sense and I know that a lot of people have issue with it. If they changed Dodge, that could be seen as an evolutionary change - a gradual change of the ruleset based on concrete feedback and perceived issues.

For another example, I hate how Fatigue works in DH1/RT/DW/BC/OW - and I think the ideas in DH2 Beta 1.0 had definite merit. If those changes are completely gone, DH2 Beta 2.0 can arguably be perceived not as an evolution over Only War, but as stagnation , perhaps even regression.

The absolutely last thing I want to see, and something I fear, is someone at FFG being peeved at how his revolutionary approach to the game line was rebuffed, and will now sabotage the evolutionary, iterative approach by simply copy-pasting Only War "because that's apparently what these grognards want huff huff snort snort" .

[...]

When I paid $20 for the original Beta, I got my monies worth. For this I didn't and more importantly wouldn't pay anything more. I have already got Only War and Dark Heresy, so why pay more.

[...]

• If you have Dark Heresy, why do you also have Only War?

For another example, I hate how Fatigue works in DH1/RT/DW/BC/OW - and I think the ideas in DH2 Beta 1.0 had definite merit. If those changes are completely gone, DH2 Beta 2.0 can arguably be perceived not as an evolution over Only War, but as stagnation , perhaps even regression.

The whole combat section (including wounds and fatigue) is a copy/paste from OW as far as I can tell .

I have one question in relation to this stance, which I have seen repeated several times.

• If you have Dark Heresy, why do you also have Only War?

With your current stance in mind, could you please illustrate or describe the rationale for the above?

This sentence sums it up perfectly.

Most, if not all of us, have purchased all of the Core books (DH, RT, DW, BC, OW and the kitchen sink), not because of the differences in the main rules system, but because of the difference in the nuances of every new iteration of the game.

If you won't buy DH2.0/2.0 because it has a similar system to DH1 or Ow, it makes no sense for you to have bought any of them.

Personally, I would go much farther and suggest that FFG should do what White Wolf has done, with one main Core Rules book and a different, 100% compatible Setting Core Book for Inquisition, Rogue Traders, Space Marines and whatever else we may play with in the future.

[...]

Personally, I would go much farther and suggest that FFG should do what White Wolf has done, with one main Core Rules book and a different, 100% compatible Setting Core Book for Inquisition, Rogue Traders, Space Marines and whatever else we may play with in the future.

Me being in favour of a generalized basic ruleset is no secret , and I really wish they'd at least create future supplements and campaign settings with this in mind, but some of the aspects of character creation in DH2 Beta 2.0 don't leave me hopeful.

They should always strive for everything to work as a single entity, allowing for a modular approach to the game line.

But that's just me.

[...]

Personally, I would go much farther and suggest that FFG should do what White Wolf has done, with one main Core Rules book and a different, 100% compatible Setting Core Book for Inquisition, Rogue Traders, Space Marines and whatever else we may play with in the future.

Me being in favour of a generalized basic ruleset is no secret , and I really wish they'd at least create future supplements and campaign settings with this in mind, but some of the aspects of character creation in DH2 Beta 2.0 don't leave me hopeful.

They should always strive for everything to work as a single entity, allowing for a modular approach to the game line.

But that's just me.

I also agree whole-heartedly with svstrauser's and fgdsfg's statements above -- just my 2 cents

Me being in favour of a generalized basic ruleset is no secret , and I really wish they'd at least create future supplements and campaign settings with this in mind, but some of the aspects of character creation in DH2 Beta 2.0 don't leave me hopeful.

They should always strive for everything to work as a single entity, allowing for a modular approach to the game line.

But that's just me.

I did not know about this previous post of yours, this is a great!

I will study it further, but it definitely has some great ideas for creating a unified system.

I particularly like the division between Classes and Types of Weapons, I was already talking with my group about trying something like this, but I rarely use complex "house mods", as I have very little time for streamlining them into the game.

I've just received the update and with a cursory glance and am enjoying the changes to the combat chapter. Yes, it's a copy and paste pretty much from Only War, but it's a great place to start with. If we can convince FFG to make things like Dodge not being static, we can get this to be perfect.

I am a little dissappointed in Aptitudes returning. I liked the way skills were handled before in the first beta pdf. =/

Now, going back to OW-like system, is just like paying for Call of Duty vers (x) and say that it has new innovative features (but none to be seen).

Just my 5 cents.

Character gen is still new, so is the narrative section (Subtlety and influence). The only things taken from Only War were Skills/Talents, Combat Chapter and Aptitudes from what I've seen so far. Still plenty of innovation going on in here carried from the 1.0 beta.

Now, going back to OW-like system, is just like paying for Call of Duty vers (x) and say that it has new innovative features (but none to be seen).

Just my 5 cents.

Character gen is still new, so is the narrative section (Subtlety and influence). The only things taken from Only War were Skills/Talents, Combat Chapter and Aptitudes from what I've seen so far. Still plenty of innovation going on in here carried from the 1.0 beta.

That is true, combat takes a huge part of the game (not saying, DH is for my sake one of the most heavy RP ones, WH40k has imo).

I don't have read the new beta stuff, but as i imaging from this forum, in implantmentation of aptitude may have done some impact on the character gen.

It has. The old beta had some very easy to implement skill/talent costs. Aptitudes inclusion has made the process slower and a bit more complicated. Before hand, for example, you had some flat rates in the roles section with a catch all table that was multiplative. Now you have to cross check your aptitudes and what not.

Nothing too disastrous there, but definitely room for improvement.

For everyone complaining this is Only War reprinted I'd like to remind you this is the new beginning to the Beta. This is our working, starting skeleton of a system. Now we tell them what we want added to it or changed. Stop pining over the old Beta because it is gone. If you liked aspects of it, then figure out how to add that feel into this skeleton so we can help build a game that is better then just Only War reprinted.

A lot of people have been mischaracterizing the position of the people not thrilled about this new beta. We're not saying we want to go back to the first beta or that the first beta was better. Stop saying that's what we're saying.

We're disappointed with this new beta because it is not a new game. It's a revision of a game we've already played. Some people want a new game.

Some of us saying that, though. That's one of the major problems with this forum: Everyone seems to assume that there are two "teams" and everyone with a similar attitude to the first beta is on the same team.

We're not.

I liked the old beta. I think it was the best thing to ever come out of FFG. Clearly not perfect - it needed another two months of weekly iteration - but very much an improvement, and a brave one.

I didn't yell at or insult those who didn't like the beta. But because my "team" did, I'm now not allowed to comment on changes I perceive to be negative. Because that would be hypocritical of me, I guess.

/shrug

There's always GURPS, I guess.

For everyone complaining this is Only War reprinted I'd like to remind you this is the new beginning to the Beta. This is our working, starting skeleton of a system. Now we tell them what we want added to it or changed. Stop pining over the old Beta because it is gone. If you liked aspects of it, then figure out how to add that feel into this skeleton so we can help build a game that is better then just Only War reprinted.

The issue is that a lot of the changes they made completely wiped the things that made the Beta interesting and unique. Deciding to scrap the progress made in the Beta, and go back to OW is a giant step back, which is not what we need in order to get a new and interesting game.

It's not about specific rules, or making individual tweaks to numbers or charts. It's about wanting a new game, not a rehash of an old game. I don't know about you, but I got into 40k ttRPGs because I enjoy the Universe, being so different from the typical D&D clone. Being unwilling to make big changes and create a new mechanical system is not the direction that attracted me to FFG's products, and it is an unfortunate turn of events, especially given the innovation of the Beta.

A lot of people have been mischaracterizing the position of the people not thrilled about this new beta. We're not saying we want to go back to the first beta or that the first beta was better. Stop saying that's what we're saying.

We're disappointed with this new beta because it is not a new game. It's a revision of a game we've already played. Some people want a new game.

Some of us saying that, though. That's one of the major problems with this forum: Everyone seems to assume that there are two "teams" and everyone with a similar attitude to the first beta is on the same team.

We're not.

I liked the old beta. I think it was the best thing to ever come out of FFG. Clearly not perfect - it needed another two months of weekly iteration - but very much an improvement, and a brave one.

I didn't yell at or insult those who didn't like the beta. But because my "team" did, I'm now not allowed to comment on changes I perceive to be negative. Because that would be hypocritical of me, I guess.

/shrug

There's always GURPS, I guess.

I see the old beta too, as one of the bravest and most innovative things they have done. I "sold" the idea of new innovative system to my friends, and they read a bit and actually liked it too.

The old beta is by far, closer to the more "human" like level what comes to combat (and damage). With this, i mean getting rid of wounds.

I may be a bit confusing, being to frustrated about his huge change (in the wrong direction, imo) to control my thoughts.

Soz.