Since I won't have time to go over the new beta for a while, one question: What does the second beta have to justify me purchasing it ?

Lore is going to be a really hard sell if FFG have dropped the ball on untouchables. Like it sounds like they have done.

I think that they would not have made such a drastic change if the response to the beta had just been a vocal (or as some here have called it, "toxic") minority. To assume that FFG scrapped everything and changed their game due to a few loud voices is quite insulting to the fine folks who wrote this book, whilst at the same time denigrating those that did not like the direction the beta was going.

It's fine if you liked aspects of the beta that are now gone. I liked the talent and psychic trees because I liked the idea of working your way through them and taking the path you want, but if those are gone and are the sacrifice required to return us to a more DH1.0/RT/DW/BC/OW style of combat and weapon/NPC rules, then so be it!

Again, I always find it difficult to criticise someone for doing what they said they were going to do or, worse, criticise someone for not doing something they never intended to do. We should look at this as a success of the beta system, regardless of which changes you like or do not like (and yeah, the Untouchable stuff needs fixing - STAT!).

I'll probably take a look at the new beta (DH2.0 2.0 ?) later today, but I'm going to stay as uninvolved as possible. I just wanted to say that complaining about these new changes and yelling at those that like the changes is pointless because many of you complaining now were celebrating the original changes and yelling at those that didn't like the first go around, and that's incredibly hypocritical. We’re better than that.

BYE

I think that they would not have made such a drastic change if the response to the beta had just been a vocal (or as some here have called it, "toxic") minority. To assume that FFG scrapped everything and changed their game due to a few loud voices is quite insulting to the fine folks who wrote this book, whilst at the same time denigrating those that did not like the direction the beta was going.

It's fine if you liked aspects of the beta that are now gone. I liked the talent and psychic trees because I liked the idea of working your way through them and taking the path you want, but if those are gone and are the sacrifice required to return us to a more DH1.0/RT/DW/BC/OW style of combat and weapon/NPC rules, then so be it!

Again, I always find it difficult to criticise someone for doing what they said they were going to do or, worse, criticise someone for not doing something they never intended to do. We should look at this as a success of the beta system, regardless of which changes you like or do not like (and yeah, the Untouchable stuff needs fixing - STAT!).

I'll probably take a look at the new beta (DH2.0 2.0 ?) later today, but I'm going to stay as uninvolved as possible. I just wanted to say that complaining about these new changes and yelling at those that like the changes is pointless because many of you complaining now were celebrating the original changes and yelling at those that didn't like the first go around, and that's incredibly hypocritical. We’re better than that.

BYE

Sensible post is sensible.

Don't go H.B.M.C.! I enjoy reading your thoughtful commentary, even if I completely disagree with it!

I don't post and didn't comment much...but personally, I along with everyone I know (that play the WH40K games) am glad they aren't using those old, broken, messed up, Beta rules and changed to be backwards compatible. It doesn't mean there has to only be OW rules...but Backwards compatibility is a MUST for us.

There are more than simply the loudspeakers who want something new (perhaps you should all play D&D 4e...that was new and different too?) and flush the old.

I think what this shows, is that FFG actually listens to other people than those who are loudest on the forums. Feedback at events, cons, and email actually ARE listened to.

I don't post and didn't comment much...but personally, I along with everyone I know (that play the WH40K games) am glad they aren't using those old, broken, messed up, Beta rules and changed to be backwards compatible. It doesn't mean there has to only be OW rules...but Backwards compatibility is a MUST for us.

There are more than simply the loudspeakers who want something new (perhaps you should all play D&D 4e...that was new and different too?) and flush the old.

I think what this shows, is that FFG actually listens to other people than those who are loudest on the forums. Feedback at events, cons, and email actually ARE listened to.

It is indeed refreshing to see a company so obviously cater to the "desires" of their customer base. However, regardless of whether you are for or against the changes, isn't it a little unfair to have to pay another X dollars for Only War with minor tweaks (a few extra talents, a re-word here and there, some armory stuff)? If this is indeed the version of the mechanics that they plan to ship (I personally hope not) they still need a ton more content (above and beyond fluff, what they usually add that isn't in the beta) to justify the expected price tag. Or make it much cheaper, which I don't think they'll do.

... isn't it a little unfair to have to pay another X dollars for Only War with minor tweaks (a few extra talents, a re-word here and there, some armory stuff)?

People said that about OW. And about BC. They'll say it about the next thing as well.

BYE

... isn't it a little unfair to have to pay another X dollars for Only War with minor tweaks (a few extra talents, a re-word here and there, some armory stuff)?

People said that about OW. And about BC. They'll say it about the next thing as well.

BYE

That's a fair comparison to make. I, personally, feel that this has much more in common with Only War than Black Crusade did with Dark Heresy. That said, I wasn't fond of Only War as a standalone game. Finally, regardless of whether or not "people said that about OW and BC" does that really contradict my point?

Again, I always find it difficult to criticise someone for doing what they said they were going to do or, worse, criticise someone for not doing something they never intended to do. We should look at this as a success of the beta system, regardless of which changes you like or do not like (and yeah, the Untouchable stuff needs fixing - STAT!).

I'll probably take a look at the new beta (DH2.0 2.0 ?) later today, but I'm going to stay as uninvolved as possible. I just wanted to say that complaining about these new changes and yelling at those that like the changes is pointless because many of you complaining now were celebrating the original changes and yelling at those that didn't like the first go around, and that's incredibly hypocritical. We’re better than that.

Having an opinion is hypocritical now?

How is the purpose of a Beta to use rules that have already been printed? How is reprinting a book with a different title a successful Beta?

My understanding of what FFG wanted to do was to create a new experience for users of the 40k platform. If you want to use "backwards compatible" rules, fine, there's nothing stopping you from using DH 1.0, RT, or OW rules to do literally whatever you want. Now, however, there is significantly less support for those of us that are interested in doing something new. Removing options is not the point of a Beta. The point of a Beta is to try new things, and to fix bugs and unintended exploits, not to give up entirely on the idea of novelty because some people cannot adapt to change.

The argument that some of us want change, that we want want DH to feel like a different game from every other ttRPG with health bars, 1/2 actions and full actions exclusively, recycled combat, and stale leveling, and that we want that change from DH 2nd edition is not hypocritical. Hypocritical is trying a new system and whining that it's not what you are used to. Hypocritical is claiming that only your criticism is valid by assuming that you are in the majority.

I'm fine with changing the rules, tweaking things, modifying things. Hell, that's what I want to have. There were problems with the system. Now, unfortunately, there will always be problems with the system because a few people cannot adapt to a new set of mechanics. Now I never get FFG's take on how to fix the issues in the system. That's the problem: going back to an old rule book doesn't add anything for those of us that want to try new stuff. It doesn't add anything for anyone that wants to try out old stuff (other than a few pre-written campaigns, woohoo!). It doesn't give us anything at all. We got a brief taste of a new take on a lot of the mechanical aspects of ttRPGs, only for it to disappear because people want reverse-compatibility? Seems like a wasted opportunity for a Beta to me.

There are more than simply the loudspeakers who want something new (perhaps you should all play D&D 4e...that was new and different too?) and flush the old.

Health bars, stale combat, and the same leveling system as D&D 1.0 are super original. Good things we're still working off that system over here too!

I am getting tired of you guys saying the "few" wanted the beta to work with the older systems such as BC and OW. If it was only the few, then to be frank the back peddle to OW style rules would had never happen. Come on they wanted this and you know they wanted this old beta. Why else would they build it in the first place? So why would they suddenly just toss it away? After all that work why would they throw it away? Be honest with yourself. When you say the "few" you really mean the vast majority.

Having an opinion is hypocritical now?

That's not even slightly what I said.

But no, I'm not getting into this. I'm gone.

BYE

That's not even slightly what I said.

I suppose voicing my opinion on a Beta test of a game is what was hypocritical.

I am getting tired of you guys saying the "few" wanted the beta to work with the older systems such as BC and OW. If it was only the few, then to be frank the back peddle to OW style rules would had never happen.

I honestly could not care less. If FFG thinks they can milk more money out of you guys by reprinting OW, more power to them. My point in being on these forums is to let FFG know that I'm not interested in buying a reprint, and to let them know why. From what I have seen so far, people in support of DH.OW are those who are claiming the majority strawman argument.

No many of us were just not happy with the wound system and how it effect other parts of the game. If you look into another thread you can see SublimeShadow offering a better alternative because it does fix many of the problems the wound system had. Mainly Sublime's is simple, quick, and works. The wound system in the old beta was clunky, slowed combat down, and there was too many things to keep track of.

The problem is Fantasy Flight went with a cumbersome system that really didn't do what it advertise to do. I mean the point of a narration game is to have easier rules so those rules won't get in the way of the story. The wound system did the exact opposite which got many reasonable people to complain. If the old beta had work there would had been no complaint.

If the old beta had work (sic) there would had been no complaint.

The idea there would be to make improvements to the system, not to scrap it entirely. Do not take what I have been saying in the wrong way: there are significant flaws in the DH Beta system. They are not, however, grave enough flaws to justify scrapping the entire project and going back to an old rule-book. I would be happy with improvements to the system. I am not happy with abandoning the system entirely.

I am quite enamored of the changes FFG seemed to want to make to the traditional ttRPG system. Reading over the first Beta PDF was a truly enjoyable experience. I knew there would be bugs, but I had confidence that FFG would find a way to make things work while still keeping the overall ideas behind the changes intact. What has disappointed me tonight is that, instead of trying to variate on the theme, FFG has switched to singing a different song entirely. Obviously, I cannot comment as to FFG's reasoning, all I can say is that I do not enjoy the tune.

No many of us were just not happy with the wound system and how it effect other parts of the game. If you look into another thread you can see SublimeShadow offering a better alternative because it does fix many of the problems the wound system had. Mainly Sublime's is simple, quick, and works. The wound system in the old beta was clunky, slowed combat down, and there was too many things to keep track of.

The problem is Fantasy Flight went with a cumbersome system that really didn't do what it advertise to do. I mean the point of a narration game is to have easier rules so those rules won't get in the way of the story. The wound system did the exact opposite which got many reasonable people to complain. If the old beta had work there would had been no complaint.

For reference: My group uses something we call Wound Threshold. This is your Toughness Bonus. Whenever you take damage (after armor and such) you divide that value by your Wound Threshold (and round down). The resulting number is compared to a wound effect table (critical effect tables) which are only 5 deep (5 is instantly lethal). Apply effects, carry on.

I don't post and didn't comment much...but personally, I along with everyone I know (that play the WH40K games) am glad they aren't using those old, broken, messed up, Beta rules and changed to be backwards compatible. It doesn't mean there has to only be OW rules...but Backwards compatibility is a MUST for us.

There are more than simply the loudspeakers who want something new (perhaps you should all play D&D 4e...that was new and different too?) and flush the old.

I think what this shows, is that FFG actually listens to other people than those who are loudest on the forums. Feedback at events, cons, and email actually ARE listened to.

It is indeed refreshing to see a company so obviously cater to the "desires" of their customer base. However, regardless of whether you are for or against the changes, isn't it a little unfair to have to pay another X dollars for Only War with minor tweaks (a few extra talents, a re-word here and there, some armory stuff)? If this is indeed the version of the mechanics that they plan to ship (I personally hope not) they still need a ton more content (above and beyond fluff, what they usually add that isn't in the beta) to justify the expected price tag. Or make it much cheaper, which I don't think they'll do.

I am hoping that they add more to it rather than a simple reprint of it. There have been gradual changes to the system through out it's history, not major revisions like the Beta originally was.

Those gradual changes have allowed backwards compatibility. So, if you are asking if I would buy a system that was basically Dark Heresy, but with some changes and called Rogue Trader, and then would turn around and buy a system which was the same as Rogue Trader but with a few changes called Deathwatch, and then would turn around and buy a system which was the same as Deathwatch but with some changes called Black Crusade, and then would turn around and buy a system that was the same as Black Crusade but with some changes called Only War...then yes.

And then...because those gradual changes have made enough changes for a good update...turn around and do the same thing all over again by buying a system which was the same as Only War but called Dark Heresy (2nd edition or whatever)...the answer is...YES...I would.

Seeing that thus far I have gotten

Dark Heresy

Rogue Trader (and collectors edition)

Death Watch (and collectors edition)

Black Crusade (and I believe a collectors edition for this as well)

Only War...

I'd say I'm pretty solidly in the buy camp for this one.

I should note...I did NOT buy WHFRP 3rd edition from FFG however (and that may be a sign that perhaps they shouldn't cater to people like me if WHFRP did great with a massive break from what came before).

I'm just glad that it appears it will have backwards compatibility. If that stays...I am definitely in the I'm going to buy this group.

I WOULD like a few changes or updates beyond a simple reprint of Only War...but the compatibility issue is a rather HIGH item on my list.

Now whether this is good business sense or not...I don't know. Perhaps it would be better for a new massive system or something new. I can't speak beyond myself or those that I know that play. It may be that internationally, or across the nation, others have far different ideas. I just know that for those I play with and know that play the WH40K Roleplaying...compatibility is a big issue and something preferred over a clean break. It may be that they are inconsequential. AFAIK...none of them come to these forums though, and even though I have an account, this is actually the first time I've ever commented on the Beta in these forums myself.

In general, we're happy playing what we play, and any feedback normally is conveyed in other means rather than on these forums...which is why I am happy it appears FFG may be listening to other arenas than just these forums.

Fair enough, fair enough. What changes would you like to see? Alternatively, what changes from the previous Beta would you be ok with keeping?

Edit: Addressed towards GreyLord

If the old beta had work (sic) there would had been no complaint.

The idea there would be to make improvements to the system, not to scrap it entirely. Do not take what I have been saying in the wrong way: there are significant flaws in the DH Beta system. They are not, however, grave enough flaws to justify scrapping the entire project and going back to an old rule-book. I would be happy with improvements to the system. I am not happy with abandoning the system entirely.

I am quite enamored of the changes FFG seemed to want to make to the traditional ttRPG system. Reading over the first Beta PDF was a truly enjoyable experience. I knew there would be bugs, but I had confidence that FFG would find a way to make things work while still keeping the overall ideas behind the changes intact. What has disappointed me tonight is that, instead of trying to variate on the theme, FFG has switched to singing a different song entirely. Obviously, I cannot comment as to FFG's reasoning, all I can say is that I do not enjoy the tune.

I gotta say; This is getting tiresome! Modern politics has shown us that "hope and change" does not necessarily mean "better" (Sorry! Couldn't resist! ). I was one of the vocal apparently "not minority" that criticized the original beta. I endured name calling, insult and a number of other things so I could make my considered opinion known. Obviously I was NOT alone and am already tired of the whining! I only just got the E-mail today and only just downloaded the file and there are already almost seventy posts on this thread. of them two posters have decided to keep stacking the same complaint again and again! In one day! Enough already! We got it! You want the old beta back! Now you know how us "grognard's" (One of the various names I've been called) felt when we thought FFG had chosen to abandon a system we all liked! Here's a news flash: We apparently outnumber you by a significant percentage or FFG would not have scrapped all their hard work from previous! Also; I want to take a moment to defend H.B.M.C. He is one of the writer's and yet some of you would pour your Vitriol at him? That's pretty dumb! He represents one of our few opportunities to hear some of the inner workings from FFG and it serves no purpose whatsoever to alienate him! So knock it off! Remember that whatever he knows he is limited by contract as to what he can actually say so take what he can give and try to move on!

<RANT ENDS>

What I've seen so far:

Characteristics: Given the other benefits I think Characteristics should be 20 + 3d10 instead of 25. While Acolytes are special I don't think they're meant to be THAT special.

Character Skill generation has obviously moved to an aptitude system so I'll have to check a little more closely before commenting.

The Armory has moved back to OW Standard. Cudos for that. In answer to an earlier posters question: Range bands have not changed. BTW; The max range of an Autogun is 400m (Extreme range). Are you suggesting that soldiers today with M16's or AK 47's could reliably hit a target beyond that range? With Iron sights? I think the range for said weapon is pretty good. (For clarity; The M-16 lists a max effective "Point target" [person] range as 550m. That's 137.5m range in the current system so it's actually pretty close.)

Vehicles: While there is nothing inherently wrong with the vehicle system I would have preferred a system that allowed the GM to build a "transport" from a series of traits. After all, The variety of personal transports available within the the 40k system is mind boggling! I think it would serve the DH2 system to put a fairly simple design system in place rather than relying on a few basic templates.

Combat: System has basically cut/pasted OW combat system. I like this. Others may not.

Psychic powers: Same thing except psykers are back to being lvl 1 Psy ability in beginning. I like it!

Elite advances: I agree with the above poster. Nulls are not well represented and need to be rethought. Consider reading the Eisenhorne novels for some inspiration of what people are referring to.

Narrative tools: These were taken directly from the old beta. An excellent addition and one of the few things I really liked from the old beta. I still really like it and desperately want to say: "You see? They didn't get rid of everything!" The only difference was the section on "Reinforcement characters." I like this Idea but I'm not sure it works mathmatically as stated. A DW Marine starts at approx. 14000 xp. this would be a minimum of 140 influence by the book to call one yet the book says it's 55 (?). This probably represents some handwavium application but the numbers should be more concise in the final product. I would suggest that the numbers be mathmatically accurate but that a 1/2 modifier be applied if the characters are working under the correct Ordo. IE: The above mentioned DW Marine would indeed require 140 influence to call and cost 14 Influence but if the group was working on an Ordo Xenos sanctioned investigation than the cost would only be 70 required and 7 spent. Note that such a character would almost qualify to be an inquisitor but this too makes sense. Base Hiver scum don't get to order Space marines into combat!

Don't have much on adversaries yet. That willhave to wait for playtesting!

I did say if they changed it back to brackets it was close to ok. Making it 125 meters would be decent. That said, I'm glad they changed back to the range system.

Fair enough, fair enough. What changes would you like to see? Alternatively, what changes from the previous Beta would you be ok with keeping?

Edit: Addressed towards GreyLord

I'm about open to any changes as long as it's backwards compatible....though I'd be much more hesitant in regards to the wounds system they had. I think much of what they had could be adjusted in order to BE backwards compatible...if they chose to do the work and go that route.

I honestly could not care less. If FFG thinks they can milk more money out of you guys by reprinting OW, more power to them. My point in being on these forums is to let FFG know that I'm not interested in buying a reprint, and to let them know why. From what I have seen so far, people in support of DH.OW are those who are claiming the majority strawman argument.

There is no such thing as "the majority strawman argument". What you are thinking about is argumentum ad populum.

And I haven't seen anyone pull it yet.

So you what, wanted your Dark Heresy characters to run a Rogue Trader mission? If you do not understand how the goals of RTs and acolytes differ, that again sounds like a you problem, not a system problem. The differences between motivations, aims, and feasible scenarios between the settings should be enough to tell you that a "cross-over" is basically impossible.

[...]

This means weapons, NPC's, monsters, gear, locales; hell, it means the entire books, down to the handouts. It means the Alternate Career Ranks and the Elite Advancement Packages; it means everything. That's crossover content.

If the only thing you can use Dark Heresy for is running Acolytes and nothing else, and if the only thing you can use Rogue Trader for is Rogue Traders and nothing else, and if you cannot think of the myriad of situations during which these might cross over (Hell, I'm playing a Pyroclast in a Rogue Trader game right now, and I intend to port the Pyroclast ability straight over; and guess what, he's not an Acolyte , oooooooh), then, perhaps, you should take issue with your own lack of imagination and narrative ability, not that of others?

I also intend to rip several abilities straight out of Only War (the Comrade abilities of the Sergeant, Operator and Medic) and I'm going to use the Black Crusade Minion rules to create said Comrades. And there's nothing you can do to stop me. Because it works. More or less seamlessly.

double-post

Disappointing as expected.

This effectively is Only War 1.1 Dark Heresy Edition.

Not getting any more of my money for this copy/paste product - I am out.

While it's hard to be too upset by the new version, as it's basically Only War+ and Only War was a fine product, it is a shame that they seemed to have thrown out a lot of the good tweaks from the original beta as well.

For me this includes:-

*Dodge is back to being a flat check instead of opposed, which means the game at high levels will still degrade into strip the dodges/whose got the most attacks, not the quality of those attacks.

*Add to this fields are back to the same system (no choosing dodge or field) again making high levels just take double the time as everyone has fields at 50%.

*Psykers are back to the borderline broken system of adding +5 * Psy Level to powers, making opposed rolls virtually pointless.

*Grappling is back and clunky as ever.

I can understand why they went back (personally I was happy with the original beta, but I can see why backwards support is important to some people), but it would be really nice if there was more of an attempt to fix the problems in the game rather than porting the ones that already exist in Only War.

Thumbs up for keeping the character gen from the original beta though, nice to see that back.

I like that everyone who advocated for this change said it's good for the system to undergo a "slow evolution", yet this seems to be completely unevolved from Only War.

My hope is that this is just a baseline and they have a number of changes they are intending to make over the next few weeks. They amount of time they took to bring out this 'edition' (and I use the word very lightly) of the rules doesn't seem proportional with the amount of actual gaming material that has changed.

With any luck they have a number of modifications in store and intend for us to test the character creation at this point, then release changes to the other game systems as we progress.

On the other hand if this is intended as a straight reprint of Only War with some taped on Dark Heresy character creation, I'll be somewhat disappointed (seriously guys, its not 1977 anymore, surely we can move beyond hitpoints as a mechanic).