Ok so the 2.0 version of this is now out. There is a few things that have immediately popped out to us.

Imperial Guard ability is awful compared to the others, needs rethought.

First Warrior ability is disgusting. Should very likely require a Fate Point expenditure.

Please make Trade Crafting. Its bugged me for 2 editions (BC and OW). Tech-Use does plenty, Trade is literally described as crafting stuff. Reassign this ability.

Untouchable, needs a complete rewrite, being an Untouchable means you can't be a Psyker. That is all. It gives you access to a bunch of talents but if you buy Untouchable at char creation it really doesn't do anything/ It is also terrible at being anti psyker. I would very much suggest rewriting it to just be an old style untouchable with a selection of abilities that you pick when you buy it.

This is just personal but just make Las Weapon Variable setting a special rule, there is no reason for it not to be.

I'm sure there is more but this is what immediately came to our attention.

Dark Heresy 2: The Bitching Continues.

Allow me to say that I enjoy your use of the word 'us.' Continue my liege. Command those lowly game developing peons to carry out your mighty will.

I was talking about my gaming group that I am talking to on Skype.

Just got my hands on it to. Having skimmed it I have a few thoughts, completely separate from the post above. Additionally, before I dive into it I'd like to clarify that I understand the intent was to make this Only War compatible.

• Character creation hasn't improved. The system in the book gives a select few options when the system it uses could easily be made into a "build your own homeworld" thing much like Only War has a "build your own regiment." I understand that this is a business move to provide more filler content for expansion books but its frustrating. The up side is that its incredibly easy to house rule.
• I like the Aptitudes, they add depth and flexibility.
• I like Influence. However, I dislike its use. It is true that invoking the power of the Inquisition is likely to get you stuff, but there are times when Thrones are the way to go (small bribes, staying covert). A discretionary Influence system doesn't really do this well. The Influence of a group should be comparable to their Inquisitor's power. An individual's Influence from "contacts" should be just that, contacts. This is needless ambiguity.
• The Skills were finally starting to get better. The previous system felt more dynamic. Having Athletics work with Strength, Toughness, and Agility was great, felt realistic, and helped to make it appealing to build "jack of all trades" characters rather than rushing as much Toughness as possible.
• Wounds. Oh boy. First of all, the first Beta system as bad. However, it wasn't bad because of the system they were trying to build. It was bad because of Wound stacking and the Wound effects. They only needed a few tweaks and it would have been awesome. Now we're back to Call of Duty red jelly bars. Dark Heresy is a punishing game in a punishing universe. It's not too hard to build brutal Wound systems (say...Damage divided by Toughness bonus, apply number to Wound Effect Table) and have it feel authentic.
• Untouchables. Aren't. Being "incapable of being a psyker" isn't an untouchable. People can't become untouchables outside of plot magic. People can't become stronger untouchables through XP expenditure. If anything, we have documented evidence of them becoming weaker over time.
• Psykers are currently mages that sometimes explode. Its easy to see that they just pulled all the powers out of the 6th Ed. Core book but it doesn't feel at all like what happens in the Black Library books when psykers go to work.
• The guns. I'm not sure whether they implemented range mods back in (I'm sure they did since this is essentially a carbon copy of Only War). If they did, the gun ranges are close to being acceptable. If they didn't, its absurd. In the grim darkness of the far future their assault rifles shoot ~1/8 as far as ours. I understand that some GM's have trouble designing encounters at ranges outside 100 m but that shouldn't limit the rules themselves.
• Combat (ala Action Points). This, much like the Wound system, feels like a step backwards. The "budget" was fun. Four options instead of two and "free/reactions" was much better. It forced players to make hard choices. The actions themselves are better though, so there is that.
• That's all I've had time to skim thus far.

Now, like I said, I'm aware this was done for Only War compatibility and a lot of people whined that they couldn't convert. My opinion is that every great advance in the FFG books has come at the cost of compatibility. Only War was not compatible with Rogue Trader, which was not compatible with Dark Heresy, etc. Now, they could be converted with some work (some easier than others) but that held true for the old 2nd ed. as well.

A step backwards overall.

Thread Post 2: The Peon Strikes Back (with added bitching)

I'm a lot happier with this so far! Looks like it'll be a lot more to my tastes than the previous incarnation.

Dark Heresy 2: The Bitching Continues.

Allow me to say that I enjoy your use of the word 'us.' Continue my liege. Command those lowly game developing peons to carry out your mighty will.

Thread Post 2: The Peon Strikes Back (with added bitching)

I'm a lot happier with this so far! Looks like it'll be a lot more to my tastes than the previous incarnation.

Just out of curiosity, what are the features you like better?

I was talking about my gaming group that I am talking to on Skype.

I was really hoping you were going to reply with "Let them eat cake."

Untouchables need to flat out be immune to all psychic powers that directly affect the Untouchable (meaning, a telekinetic thrown car would still kill them, but a force bolt would not).

Not compromising on this. It rustles my jimmies that they have a "tech-tree", but I'm willing to wave that away.

Untouchable's putting their hands on their chest and ****-face grinning as fireballs and level 50 lightning bolts dissipate into smoke when they hit their untouchable aura is an absolute must, though. I won't accept anything less.

Positives so far: enjoying the idea of the Aptitudes system, looks like a nice easy way to determine XP costs. Simple to use and keep track of, nice idea.

Negatives so far: they nuked the talent trees! Nooooo! I loved those, talents are once again a pain in the bum to slog through when spending XP. I really liked being able to see progression and catagories at a glance. Not impressed.

(also: first post, hi everyone!)

Just got my hands on it to. Having skimmed it I have a few thoughts, completely separate from the post above. Additionally, before I dive into it I'd like to clarify that I understand the intent was to make this Only War compatible.

• Character creation hasn't improved. The system in the book gives a select few options when the system it uses could easily be made into a "build your own homeworld" thing much like Only War has a "build your own regiment." I understand that this is a business move to provide more filler content for expansion books but its frustrating. The up side is that its incredibly easy to house rule.
• I like the Aptitudes, they add depth and flexibility.
• I like Influence. However, I dislike its use. It is true that invoking the power of the Inquisition is likely to get you stuff, but there are times when Thrones are the way to go (small bribes, staying covert). A discretionary Influence system doesn't really do this well. The Influence of a group should be comparable to their Inquisitor's power. An individual's Influence from "contacts" should be just that, contacts. This is needless ambiguity.
• The Skills were finally starting to get better. The previous system felt more dynamic. Having Athletics work with Strength, Toughness, and Agility was great, felt realistic, and helped to make it appealing to build "jack of all trades" characters rather than rushing as much Toughness as possible.
• Wounds. Oh boy. First of all, the first Beta system as bad. However, it wasn't bad because of the system they were trying to build. It was bad because of Wound stacking and the Wound effects. They only needed a few tweaks and it would have been awesome. Now we're back to Call of Duty red jelly bars. Dark Heresy is a punishing game in a punishing universe. It's not too hard to build brutal Wound systems (say...Damage divided by Toughness bonus, apply number to Wound Effect Table) and have it feel authentic.
• Untouchables. Aren't. Being "incapable of being a psyker" isn't an untouchable. People can't become untouchables outside of plot magic. People can't become stronger untouchables through XP expenditure. If anything, we have documented evidence of them becoming weaker over time.
• Psykers are currently mages that sometimes explode. Its easy to see that they just pulled all the powers out of the 6th Ed. Core book but it doesn't feel at all like what happens in the Black Library books when psykers go to work.
• The guns. I'm not sure whether they implemented range mods back in (I'm sure they did since this is essentially a carbon copy of Only War). If they did, the gun ranges are close to being acceptable. If they didn't, its absurd. In the grim darkness of the far future their assault rifles shoot ~1/8 as far as ours. I understand that some GM's have trouble designing encounters at ranges outside 100 m but that shouldn't limit the rules themselves.
• Combat (ala Action Points). This, much like the Wound system, feels like a step backwards. The "budget" was fun. Four options instead of two and "free/reactions" was much better. It forced players to make hard choices. The actions themselves are better though, so there is that.
• That's all I've had time to skim thus far.

Now, like I said, I'm aware this was done for Only War compatibility and a lot of people whined that they couldn't convert. My opinion is that every great advance in the FFG books has come at the cost of compatibility. Only War was not compatible with Rogue Trader, which was not compatible with Dark Heresy, etc. Now, they could be converted with some work (some easier than others) but that held true for the old 2nd ed. as well.

A step backwards overall.

Yep. Pretty much. Not only is it a step backwards, but because I own Only War, there's basically no reason to buy this. I can kludge together the Acolyte classes from the Only War stuff. And besides the Influence rules, its mostly a reprint.

I was really hoping you were going to reply with "Let them eat cake."

The peasantry of today just don't have the adequate measure of reverence for we of the pluralis maiestatis.

Yep. Pretty much. Not only is it a step backwards, but because I own Only War, there's basically no reason to buy this. I can kludge together the Acolyte classes from the Only War stuff. And besides the Influence rules, its mostly a reprint.

Yeah...

I'm still reading through the new PDF, but can anyone tell me if there's anything stopping me from using my OW rulebook with this PDF's chargen system? What I'm reading doesn't look that different from OW.

I was really hoping you were going to reply with "Let them eat cake."

The peasantry of today just don't have the adequate measure of reverence for we of the pluralis maiestatis.

I love that you used an I instead of a J.

e; apparently I'm bad at forums and don't know how to edit.

@Sublime Shadow,

I agree with you on most points.

I am extremely disappointed at the direction FFG decided to take DH 2.0. When the beta came out, I loved the wound system, the AP system, and the leveling system. Sure, there are problems. But overall, the structure of each of these was a step in the right direction. Instead of trying to balance these options, I guess FFG decided to say "F it" and reprint Only War.

I'm not very happy with things. My group will continue playing actual DH 2.0, instead of Only War: Inquisition Edition. I wanted to move on to a more interesting and advanced system and, while Only War certainly qualifies when compared to DH 1.0, DH 2.0 is a poor excuse for what it could have been.

40k RPGs should not be ports of D&D. An archaic wound system and stale combat rules are only holding back how fluid and entertaining the system can become. Hopefully FFG will realize this before too long, but until then at least I have a PDF copy of the old rule-book.

@Sublime Shadow,

I agree with you on most points.

I am extremely disappointed at the direction FFG decided to take DH 2.0. When the beta came out, I loved the wound system, the AP system, and the leveling system. Sure, there are problems. But overall, the structure of each of these was a step in the right direction. Instead of trying to balance these options, I guess FFG decided to say "F it" and reprint Only War.

I'm not very happy with things. My group will continue playing actual DH 2.0, instead of Only War: Inquisition Edition. I wanted to move on to a more interesting and advanced system and, while Only War certainly qualifies when compared to DH 1.0, DH 2.0 is a poor excuse for what it could have been.

40k RPGs should not be ports of D&D. An archaic wound system and stale combat rules are only holding back how fluid and entertaining the system can become. Hopefully FFG will realize this before too long, but until then at least I have a PDF copy of the old rule-book.

Ho no. Don't you dare blame this on FFG. The Beta community did this to itself. This is exactly what the most vocal members of the beta community appeared to want as the first test was winding down.

@Sublime Shadow,

I agree with you on most points.

I am extremely disappointed at the direction FFG decided to take DH 2.0. When the beta came out, I loved the wound system, the AP system, and the leveling system. Sure, there are problems. But overall, the structure of each of these was a step in the right direction. Instead of trying to balance these options, I guess FFG decided to say "F it" and reprint Only War.

I'm not very happy with things. My group will continue playing actual DH 2.0, instead of Only War: Inquisition Edition. I wanted to move on to a more interesting and advanced system and, while Only War certainly qualifies when compared to DH 1.0, DH 2.0 is a poor excuse for what it could have been.

40k RPGs should not be ports of D&D. An archaic wound system and stale combat rules are only holding back how fluid and entertaining the system can become. Hopefully FFG will realize this before too long, but until then at least I have a PDF copy of the old rule-book.

Ho no. Don't you dare blame this on FFG. The Beta community did this to itself. This is exactly what the most vocal members of the beta community appeared to want as the first test was winding down.

I'm all for ripping on the community here, but FFG isn't blameless in kowtowing to a vocal, toxic minority segment of the whole population.

Yep, I wanted this. Now stop complaining about it in my thread please, take it somewhere else. I'm looking for fixes and specific problems to the new rules that have been presented.

I'm all for ripping on the community here, but FFG isn't blameless in kowtowing to a vocal, toxic minority segment of the whole population.

Exactly. Obviously I am relatively new here, and I will gladly admit that I haven't been paying attention to the forums, but I cannot imagine the rationale behind what FFG has done. "There are problems with our shiny new system? Time to throw it all in the trash." There is a time for a tried and true approach, but this isn't it. If people on this forum seriously wanted to make DH into OW, why not just tell them to play OW? That game already exists. There's no need to print it twice. There's no need for us to buy a book we already own.

Yawn... Guys you have spent the last several weeks making it abundantly clear that you didn't like the direction the Beta was headed. We get it. We got it... long since.

Many moons ago, you guys told all of us you hated the original Beta to suck it up and stop complaining. It was the way things were going and we could get with the program or shut up and move along. It is soooo very tempting to say the same things to you right now... but I'm going to struggle to resist that temptation. If you have honest, solid criticisms of this new Beta... beyond "waaaw, it's not the old Beta" ... make them. Make a case for your position, founded in a solid reasons. Demonstrate why the old way was better. 'Cause, that's what we, who hated the old Beta, did and it worked.

Yep, I wanted this. Now stop complaining about it in my thread please, take it somewhere else. I'm looking for fixes and specific problems to the new rules that have been presented.

Lots of good ideas here http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/forum/257-only-war/

I'm all for ripping on the community here, but FFG isn't blameless in kowtowing to a vocal, toxic minority segment of the whole population.

Exactly. Obviously I am relatively new here, and I will gladly admit that I haven't been paying attention to the forums, but I cannot imagine the rationale behind what FFG has done. "There are problems with our shiny new system? Time to throw it all in the trash." There is a time for a tried and true approach, but this isn't it. If people on this forum seriously wanted to make DH into OW, why not just tell them to play OW? That game already exists. There's no need to print it twice. There's no need for us to buy a book we already own.

That's like arguing that you don't need Rogue Trader, because you have Dark Heresy, or that you don't need Black Crusade, because you had Deathwatch.

It's a baseless strawman.

The reason they canned the old system was because they were presented with the issues of said system, and people showing how other options were arguably superior. It's really that easy, and they realized that it needed to be reworked.

If there's anything that is factually worse now compared to before, by all means, present it, and pick it up for discussion, and let's talk about it, what can be improved, what needs to be changed. It wasn't rocket science the first time around, and it's not rocket science now.

Yawn... Guys you have spent the last several weeks making it abundantly clear that you didn't like the direction the Beta was headed. We get it. We got it... long since.

Many moons ago, you guys told all of us you hated the original Beta to suck it up and stop complaining. It was the way things were going and we could get with the program or shut up and move along. It is soooo very tempting to say the same things to you right now... but I'm going to struggle to resist that temptation. If you have honest, solid criticisms of this new Beta... beyond "waaaw, it's not the old Beta" ... make them. Make a case for your position, founded in a solid reasons. Demonstrate why the old way was better. 'Cause, that's what we, who hated the old Beta, did and it worked.

As much as it pains me to say it, I agree with this guy. You really need to read the massive host of .... stuff..... down below.

That's like arguing that you don't need Rogue Trader, because you have Dark Heresy, or that you don't need Black Crusade, because you had Deathwatch.

It's a baseless strawman.

The reason they canned the old system was because they were presented with the issues of said system, and people showing how other options were arguably superior. It's really that easy, and they realized that it needed to be reworked.

If there's anything that is factually worse now compared to before, by all means, present it, and pick it up for discussion, and let's talk about it, what can be improved, what needs to be changed. It wasn't rocket science the first time around, and it's not rocket science now.

The issue for a lot of people not thrilled about the newest PDF, I think, is that it's not a new game; it's a revision of a game we've been playing. I wanted a new, different game and this PDF looks a lot like a cleaner version of a game I already have.

Nobody's right - it's down to preference - and the gloating over whose side won is pointless. But don't expect people not to voice their disappointment with this decision.

(this all wasn't directly at fgdsfg, he just happened to be the last to chime in on this note)

I am looking at this and I am crying. Tears of joy are coming out of my face. Not because of the game system either though I will say they largely fix the game as the old beta was horrible. Flat out horrible. I gave it a shot. My group at the table gave it a shot. It was flat out garbage.

Also to all the people who are screaming over the lost of old beta. Oh well is what I have to say. It took more than this so called "toxic" forum to make Fantasy Flight change its mind. It took more than the people who went to conventions to change their mind. Fantasy Flight knew they had a rotten egg and got rid of it.

Let me point this out. Just because the old beta had very brand new rules doesn't make it good. The wound system they had in place was bulky, confusing, and slowed down my group to a crawl. It forced me to just use minions and elites. This was the very thing you defended that people hated. The "HP less" system needed to go and burn.

Now I will give you credit that action points are cool and their only problem was rate of fire. Now that they got rate of fire fixed I wish action points would had been brought back. I also like the elite advances (untouchable can stand for improvement) and offer some thing unique. Character creation is wonderful and that is why it was mostly left untouched for the most part.

That's like arguing that you don't need Rogue Trader, because you have Dark Heresy, or that you don't need Black Crusade, because you had Deathwatch.

It's a baseless strawman.

The reason they canned the old system was because they were presented with the issues of said system, and people showing how other options were arguably superior. It's really that easy, and they realized that it needed to be reworked.

If there's anything that is factually worse now compared to before, by all means, present it, and pick it up for discussion, and let's talk about it, what can be improved, what needs to be changed. It wasn't rocket science the first time around, and it's not rocket science now.

I'm all for ripping on the community here, but FFG isn't blameless in kowtowing to a vocal, toxic minority segment of the whole population.

Exactly. Obviously I am relatively new here, and I will gladly admit that I haven't been paying attention to the forums, but I cannot imagine the rationale behind what FFG has done. "There are problems with our shiny new system? Time to throw it all in the trash." There is a time for a tried and true approach, but this isn't it. If people on this forum seriously wanted to make DH into OW, why not just tell them to play OW? That game already exists. There's no need to print it twice. There's no need for us to buy a book we already own.

I don't think that's entirely accurate. Most of the beta threads I read were more foaming-at-the-mouth rants than actual coherent criticism. What FFG saw were repeated usage of these words in all capital letters: HATE, BACKWARDS COMPATIBLE, ONLY WAR.