fire for effect happens all at once then?

Furthermore, are the extra hits gained by DoS counted as explosive as well?

For example, one of my players used fire for effect rolled a 9 earning 4Dos. so, 1 hit for success +1 hit for explosive +2 hit for DoS...do those last two hits get the explosive quality as well or are they just extra?

Having it happen all at once is IMO the simplest way to do it, bookkeeping-wise. It may not be a perfect simulation but with combat I prefer to make it more fluid and organic mechanics-wise than mirroring real-life as closely as possible.

X is, I believe +1 hit added on at the end, not a +1 modifier that improves all other hits. But this is one of those things I don't recall very well.

Ah, OK. Well, it worked itself out. The way I handled it was with Fire for Effect, since it was a response to the external stimuli of being shot and the enemies presented themselves as a horde, I worked it out just before each player`s turn. This wasn`t a problem as by the time the third player went, they had decimated the horde within 15 in-game seconds. I also ended up ruling that the +1 explosive bonus counts for actual rounds fired, not hits based on DoS as I justify those as collateral hits from the physical rounds fired. Therefore a semi-auto bolt pistol burst can get 2 hits +2 explosive and a HB can get 6 hits +6 explosive, but the explosive quality will not count for DoS hits. Does that make sense?

The coup de grace came as our Space Wolf Assault Marine charged the Gargoyles in the air and scored a devastating blow: something like 4 DoS and rolling a 9 for Wrathful Descent. He landed in a pile of dead and dying enemies at the end of his turn. It was glorious.

Furthermore, are the extra hits gained by DoS counted as explosive as well?

The bonus hit from an Explosive attack are added after all other modifiers. Specifically clarified in the Errata.

Every time you roll a BS attack you can only get 1 extra hit from X.

This also goes for bonus hits from melee weapons with Power Field.

Furthermore, are the extra hits gained by DoS counted as explosive as well?

The bonus hit from an Explosive attack are added after all other modifiers. Specifically clarified in the Errata.

Every time you roll a BS attack you can only get 1 extra hit from X.

This also goes for bonus hits from melee weapons with Power Field.

I am sure they have good reason to do this... but it doesn`t make sense to me. If 6 bolt rounds hit, all six are in fact exploding. As each is defined to do. I don`t know if I like that. At least against hordes anyway. I realize how this could seriously ruin a single enemy`s day.

Hordes don't deserve sympathy. =P Besides that, there's a fine line to be drawn. They have to be killable quickly, because if not they can very easily TPK a team. At the same time, they should present more than a flat roadblock, while also not taking up too much attention/spotlight from the "real" enemies.

Ah, I am sorry. I see that I worded that oddly. I am saying I don't like that the rules PREVENT each successful bolter hit from adding an extra +1 for explosion.

I can see why that rule could seriously hurt an elite, "real" enemy, but it makes sense to absolutely ravage and destroy a horde with it.

Has anyone here experienced throwing grenades at a flying horde? I was thinking of allowing it but invoking a Very Hard (-30) test to account for "cooking" the fuse and throwing at the proper height. Of course, the flyers could not be higher than the Astartes SBx3.

Thoughts on something like this?

fire for effect happens all at once then?

Yes. Squad modes that allow you to 'do something' - move, shoot, whatever - allow everyone in squad mode to act simultaneously, giving you essentially an extra out-of-sequence turn

Eh, I probably wouldn't impose a penalty to hitting a flying Horde with grenades. I like to keep the Astartes fighting somewhat more cinematic when I can, and I bet the Codex covers this tactic.

fire for effect happens all at once then?

Yes. Squad modes that allow you to 'do something' - move, shoot, whatever - allow everyone in squad mode to act simultaneously, giving you essentially an extra out-of-sequence turn

Well, since everything is happening at the same time anyways - 1 round is 1 five-second period in time - handling the reactions before each individual's turn would essentially be the same thing. They are still all acting simultaneously, I am just describing their actions as a sequence of events rather than all at the same time. Essentially what I am trying to figure out is if my way of handling reactions, versus doing them all at once, has any major mechanical differences in-game.

Keep in mind, I am playing in a PbP forum.

Eh, I probably wouldn't impose a penalty to hitting a flying Horde with grenades. I like to keep the Astartes fighting somewhat more cinematic when I can, and I bet the Codex covers this tactic.

Now that is a **** generous GM if I have ever heard of one. Haha.

5 seconds per round is also a really silly idea in practice.

Also what I mean is: I wouldn't instill penalties above and beyond the basic -10 to hit aerial foes (not in melee) with grenades. What purpose does it serve? Astartes are made for war. They've probably done weirder things in combat than throw grenades at flyers.

What about a "miss" with a grenade against a horde? It seems to me that even if the grenade misses it still flies in a random direction and would still explode, damaging the horde.

Grenades do miss according to the grenade scatter rules of the Core rulebook. Whether the grenade lands close enough to the horde to cause hits is up to the GM based upon the size and "area" the horde is currently occupying. If the grenade scatters to the point where it still hits a horde, but the blast area doesn't fully cover the horde, then the GM should probably rule the grenade does fewer base hits (number up to GM).

Throwing grenades at flying targets is more involved than just hitting them. Grenades use timers and DO NOT auto-detonate when they hit an enemy (sorry video games). I would apply a pretty decent penalty (-20 or -30) to the grenade attack to represent the marine "guessing" the timing to get the grenade to detonate near the flying horde. Misses scatter normally though may still "nick" the horde.

Grenades do miss according to the grenade scatter rules of the Core rulebook. Whether the grenade lands close enough to the horde to cause hits is up to the GM based upon the size and "area" the horde is currently occupying. If the grenade scatters to the point where it still hits a horde, but the blast area doesn't fully cover the horde, then the GM should probably rule the grenade does fewer base hits (number up to GM).

Throwing grenades at flying targets is more involved than just hitting them. Grenades use timers and DO NOT auto-detonate when they hit an enemy (sorry video games). I would apply a pretty decent penalty (-20 or -30) to the grenade attack to represent the marine "guessing" the timing to get the grenade to detonate near the flying horde. Misses scatter normally though may still "nick" the horde.

1. Alright, cool.

2. Yeah, that was kind of my point in bringing up "cooking" the fuse.

To play devil's advocate here, the difference between throwing a grenade up and throwing a grenade at a land-bound opponent is pretty minor. Against a land-bound enemy, rarely are you going to throw the grenade in such a way that all forward momentum is arrested... If the grenade passes through the horde in the time after it 'hits' but before it detonates, your hit would become a miss. Further, if there was time between hitting and detonation, the horde could conceivably attempt to return the grenade to the Space Marine... It seems that the grenade attack rolls already assume you are 'cooking' the grenade so it detonates on contact. A miss indicates either that your timing was bad or that your throw was bad.

Throwing at a flying horde is no different, but if you miss, you'd expect the scatter to be downward instead of a purely random direction. The -10 for a flying opponent seems adequate to cover the difficulty of lobbing a grenade generally upward instead of generally outward.

That is actually a pretty solid point. While detonation upon impact isn`t realistic, it seems to be how the mechanics of the game favor the system - which I hadn`t considered until reading DDMW`s post.

Let me drop this one on you - I have a horde with an elite embedded in it. Do the horde and the elite use separate initiative/movement speed, or should it all be consistent with the horde until the elite *breaks away* or engages in melee?

Edit: Regarding that same creature, it is enormous in size but I am requiring called shots to hit it since it is in a horde. Does it still get the +20 (size enormous) to hit if it is within a horde? If this is the case it will negate the called shot penalty.

If we're strictly talking RAW, there's no mechanical distinction between grenading flying/terrestrial enemies, is all I'm saying.

If you have a single, specialist model in with a horde it should have the same initiative as the horde escorting it. If your players decided to shoot at the single model it would get none of the bonuses for being a horde. No need for a called shot, you are just shooting the specialist as a single character. Roll to hit and apply damage as you would a single, non-horde, enemy.

These single, specialist characters attack as a single model. They get no benefit from being part of a horde when they attack. Now you could decide that missile launcher character who just got pasted dropped the launcher and another mook in the horde picked it up (decrease horde size by whatever rating you consider 1 mook is). But always have the chance that killing the launcher guy scraps the launcher (25% chance or whatever you prefer). Just one more reminder, the mook picking the weapon up still has to use ready actions to do so, which means no shooting for a turn.

When dealing with melee specialists/elites it is more than appropriate to have these characters "hiding" in the horde. They aren't doing anything to draw attention to themselves until they can get close, and as long as they are the same size catagory they aren't easily distinguished. Give your players a chance to notice them (say an awareness test with penalties for instance), but don't give the suprise away. Do this enough times (not ALL the time) and your players will start to look for these threats in hordes sent against them (always a good thing when players use their brains).

They certainly might get some cover in the horde, or an environmental hit penalty to nail them specifically. Happens a lot when players have to deal with innocent crowds in the modules while fighting genestealers or rebels.

If you have a single, specialist model in with a horde it should have the same initiative as the horde escorting it. If your players decided to shoot at the single model it would get none of the bonuses for being a horde. No need for a called shot, you are just shooting the specialist as a single character. Roll to hit and apply damage as you would a single, non-horde, enemy.

These single, specialist characters attack as a single model. They get no benefit from being part of a horde when they attack. Now you could decide that missile launcher character who just got pasted dropped the launcher and another mook in the horde picked it up (decrease horde size by whatever rating you consider 1 mook is). But always have the chance that killing the launcher guy scraps the launcher (25% chance or whatever you prefer). Just one more reminder, the mook picking the weapon up still has to use ready actions to do so, which means no shooting for a turn.

When dealing with melee specialists/elites it is more than appropriate to have these characters "hiding" in the horde. They aren't doing anything to draw attention to themselves until they can get close, and as long as they are the same size catagory they aren't easily distinguished. Give your players a chance to notice them (say an awareness test with penalties for instance), but don't give the suprise away. Do this enough times (not ALL the time) and your players will start to look for these threats in hordes sent against them (always a good thing when players use their brains).

It says in the CRB that Elite enemies in a horde will use the horde as cover and a called shot is required to hit them. Dont know the page number, but that is in there! But the hiding thing will be great for future combats.

Dude, so I cant find it now but I know I read something about for every 2DoS with a ranged weapon against a horde another hit is allocated. Ex. I had a character fire semi auto into the horde. He earned 5DoS. So all of his bolter rounds hit +1 for explosive quality... do I add anymore hits for the DoS? That seems like an easy question but it is confusing me.

Essentially, do the extra hits against a horde/2DoS count AFTER the hits attributed to bolter RoF or are they additional hits you always get against the horde regardless of how many Bolter rounds struck?

The extra hit adds to the total number of hits generated normally. As the bonus hit from X is addative it is added after any modifers which multiply hits, but that is the only caveat.

Characters DO NOT inflict additional hits on hordes due to Degrees of Success from shooting (DW Core p.359).

Marine w/50 BS & HB (Assuming attack roll is at +0)

1: Hits with a roll of 30 from Full Auto attack

2: 1 hit from success + 2 hits from DoS = 3 hits from BS attack roll

3: [iF the character had an ability which multiplied hits it would apply now]

4: Explosive damage type adds +1 hit

5: Total: 4 hits.

Hmm. I thought I had read somewhere that they did, but the more I think about it the more I realize that I probably got that from a post on these forums. That will make horde encounters much more deadly. For example, in one combat I had my HB ht with 9 DoS - something like that. I ruled 1 hit for success + 6 for DoS +3 for extra DoS +1 explosive = 11 hits.

Can hits then not exceed RoF?

And off topic, is there a limit to number of melee attacks a PC can parry? If they get hit three times by a single enemy, do they have the opportunity to parry all three incoming blows? I would wager yes. But I would like to be sure.

Hits just from bullets hitting you can never exceed RoF. That is a hard cap, but that cap is not affected by things like special abilities, X-type damage, etc. You can generate additional hits against a Horde per 2 DoS in melee. yes, this further overcomplicates the already too-complicated hit/Magnitude damage system especially when multiple attacks or special effects like Power Field are involved.

Parry is a Reaction. You get one Reaction per turn - can be used to Dodge OR Parry OR some other action, say the Squad Mode Fire for Effect. Meaning someone who gets hit with both rolls on a RAW Swift Attack can attempt to parry one of those attacks, the other they cannot defend against without a Talent or Squad Mode granting multiple Reactions. So, no, if someone is attacked 3 times by a single enemy, they can attempt to Parry 1 of those attacks at a baseline Special gear, Squad Modes, and Talents may increase the number of general Reactions or specific Dodge/Parry reactions they get per turn.

This is pretty nasty especially for tyranids. Best bet is to use a Reaction-sharing Squad Mode to defend against it.