I feel like I am missing something - I also feel that the Gargoyle's attack on one of my Marines did way too much damage.

The situation:

My group is atop a plateau in dense fog and rain with limited visibilty. A mag 20 horde of Gargoyles has descended on them from the fog. I rolled awareness tests to see if the horde caught anyone sleeping. They did. Two of the marines were surprised and so I rolled attacks on them from the Gargoyles in a surprise round.

The horde had two attacks so I split them up - one against marine 1, and the other against marine 2. The first attack missed terribly, but the second attack hit. It caused 1d10+5 damage (rolled twice due to tearing and taking the higher which was 11), plus 2d10 because of magnitude size which was 13 more damage. A total of 24 w/ a pen 3. Total damage to her right leg (damage reduction 16, AP + TB) was 11. Is this high?

The group was using fire for effect squad mode, so the remaining three then got reaction shots against the horde (+10 because they were in short range, -10 because they were flying). Two of the marines hit, the third did not get to shoot because he had a heavy bolter and cannot make a standard attack (right?) Anyways, they both hit with large DoS, but since it was a single shot that didnt matter. Because they had the explosive quality that earned an extra hit for each of them, reducing the horde magnitude by 4. Thus the surprise round ended with a horde magnitude of 16 and a marine with 11 damage to its right leg.

Is all that correct?

Here are my posts - IC:

As the fog closes in the group experiences a moment of silence. In that moment, all you can hear is the wind and rain beating down upon you. The density of the fog, the intensity of the rain and the air itself is against you. You wait for the inevitable, and it doesn’t take long for it to find you.

Gunter is the first to hear them. Echoes in the distance that grow into louder screams. Pax and Sarlock also hear it, as they draw their weapons towards the sky. Perhaps because they were so intent on scanning the far tree line and covering the group’s six, Yngvar and Aisha are caught completely unaware as the first rain of living ammunition from the Gargoyle’s fleshborer weaponry falls down upon them. The first fusillade misses Yngvar completely, but manages to peppers Aisha, hitting her squarely in the right leg. While her armor negates most of the damage, some of the vile ammunition finds weak points and a very real pain shoots up into her leg.

[OOC Tearing weapon – 11 damage (1d10+5=11, 1d10+5=6) plus magnitude bonus (2d10=13) = 24 – 13 AP&TB = 11 damage total.

Meanwhile the rest of the group is quick to act, popping off single reactionary shots against targets as they appear. Gunter and Pax both fire with astounding accuracy. The single bolter rounds tear into the flying horde, destroying multiple beasts as the mass-reactive shells explode inside their targets, sending shrapnel into the rest of the flying monstrosities.

[OOC: BS reaction shots against Nid gargoyles approximately 20m away. +10 for short range, -10 because they are flying. (1d100=24, 1d100=94, 1d100=8) – Keep in mind that Sarlock cannot use this ability as his weapon only fires on full auto – which is a full attack action

OOC:

Incoming.

Awareness - Gunter, Pax, Yngvar, Aisha and Sarlock.

Perception +10 due to sh*tty weather

Surprise round has started.

Gunter, Pax, and Sarlock hear the threats as they come in and get a reaction shot at the gargoyles (tyranid fliers). Yngvar and Aisha are both surprised. The horde of Gargoyles were able to fire twice because of their magnitude. I split this as attacks against Aisha and Yngvar. The shot on Yngvar missed, but the shot on Aisha hit her right leg and caused a total of 24 damage w/ Pen 3. After armor and toughness reduction, this came out to 11 damage total. (Which seems really high, can someone double check that I did that correctly.. did I miss something?)

Aisha has 12 wounds left.

Gunter and Pax both score hits on the horde - since any damage against a horde with a bolter reduces its magnitude, rolling damage is not necessary (the min damage always damages lesser foes). And since bolter rounds are explosive, they cause one additional hit. Thus, those two shots reduced this magnitude 20 horde by 4 in just one reaction.

Roll initiative, everyone. 1d10+AG bonus

Horde magnitude: 16

For a horde, that's not really high damage and from what i can see you calculated it correctly. Consider the character reduced it by over half, could have spent multiple Fate to heal it on the spot, or taken cover and simply had it treated by an Apothecary after.

There's no flat rule that flying enemies impose a -10 to hit or that it should count as "higher ground." Dense fog and rain I think would be a -20 penalty total but that's really up to the GM especially when Auto-Senses are implicated.

You're correct that the heavy bolter guy could not use Fire for Effect with his heavy bolter, but he could have Quick Drawn his bolt pistol and shot.

I believe that Yngvar and Aisha could have participated in the Squad Mode, if both are Astartes and were in Squad Mode and in Support Range of whoever activated the Squad Mode.

Even if they were caught in a surprise round?

CRB under flying creatures mentions that a flying creature imposes a -10 to BS made against it. I cant recall pg number right now, sorry.

By quickdrawing his bolt pistol would he have dropped his HB on the ground?

One more - spending a fate point heals how much damage?

My group is atop a plateau in dense fog and rain with limited visibilty. A mag 20 horde of Gargoyles has descended on them from the fog. I rolled awareness tests to see if the horde caught anyone sleeping. They did. Two of the marines were surprised and so I rolled attacks on them from the Gargoyles in a surprise round.

The ones who were not surprised should still have rolled off for initiative with the Gargoyles - if they went first, they might have killed enough to reduce damage to their flat-footed brethren.

The horde had two attacks so I split them up - one against marine 1, and the other against marine 2. The first attack missed terribly, but the second attack hit. It caused 1d10+5 damage (rolled twice due to tearing and taking the higher which was 11), plus 2d10 because of magnitude size which was 13 more damage. A total of 24 w/ a pen 3.

I'm not sure. Horde magnitude gives bonus damage dice - so as I read it (but happy to be told I'm wrong) you roll 4D10 and pick the best 3. Relatively minimal difference but should on average hit harder.

Total damage to her right leg (damage reduction 16, AP + TB) was 11. Is this high?

You rolled something like a 6, a 6, and a 7, so no, that's not high. A space marine should be able to take two such wounds before suffering serious injury - and that's assuming not using fate points to recover wounds or an apothecary providing first aid - and a horde should only be in a position to do stuff like that for a couple of rounds before its magnitude drops below the point where it gets a full 2D10 damage bonus.

Plus, narratively - you just got hit by about half your weight in bullets. It's going to hurt.

The group was using fire for effect squad mode, so the remaining three then got reaction shots against the horde (+10 because they were in short range, -10 because they were flying). Two of the marines hit, the third did not get to shoot because he had a heavy bolter and cannot make a standard attack (right?)

Correct. Whilst he can drop/sling/whatever the heavy bolter as a free action, he can't do that unless it's his turn. I think a dipole maglock lets you draw a weapon as part of a reaction, so had he taken that upgrade for a pistol it would have been possible.

Even if they were caught in a surprise round?

I would have said you did it correctly - not for that turn. I believe Fire For Effect uses your reaction - therefore if you don't get a reaction for the turn, you don't get to shoot. By comparison, had you been using Tactical Spacing, a surprised character could have used a reaction from a non-surprised character* - they're using someone elses reaction, not their own, which they don't get. In fact this is one of the most important uses for this squad mode.

* Yes, all right, I know you can't use a reaction to dodge attacks from a horde. But I'm just using this as an example.

I am more confused now on whether or not my characters that were surprised got a reaction or not. I ruled that even though they were surprised they got a reaction shot off after the attack on them by the gargoyles.

What I did was roll awareness test, those that failed were surprised, the enemy attacked surprised characters only, then everyone in the squad minus my HB got reaction shots on them reducing magnitude by 6.

Next time you are saying I should have the rest of the party roll initiative and then start combat based on that with my surprised characters not getting a chance to act first round? I think that makes sense. So, first playthrough they just got hit a little harder because of my ignorance. Oh well haha.

For damage, I rolled 1d10+5 twice and took the higher damage which was 11. Then I rolled 2d10 which came out to 13. Minus 13 because of Armor and Toughness. 11 was total damage taken.

Magnus, I just re-read your comment in the daytime after not having focussed on writing up the **** IC and OOC post for an hour and it makes MUCH more sense.

A new question from one of my players has emerged. The reaction shots they took, do those count as reaction shots for the surprise round (as in they get another reaction shot against the horde BEFORE round 1 starts), or do they count as reaction shots for round one. I counted them as the latter - not granting reaction shots before the surprise round as no enemies were present, instead making their reaction shots count for Round 1.

Thanks again for all the help, guys.

Even if they were caught in a surprise round?

CRB under flying creatures mentions that a flying creature imposes a -10 to BS made against it. I cant recall pg number right now, sorry.

By quickdrawing his bolt pistol would he have dropped his HB on the ground?

One more - spending a fate point heals how much damage?

(1) Yes. Squad Modes can break the action economy like that.

(2) Huh, gotcha. Too many spot rules in this game imo.

(3) Yes, or he could maybe carry (but not shoot) it with one hand.

(4) 1d10

Also IIRC you can dodge horde ranged attacks but not melee.

Even if they were caught in a surprise round?

CRB under flying creatures mentions that a flying creature imposes a -10 to BS made against it. I cant recall pg number right now, sorry.

By quickdrawing his bolt pistol would he have dropped his HB on the ground?

One more - spending a fate point heals how much damage?

(1) Yes. Squad Modes can break the action economy like that.

(2) Huh, gotcha. Too many spot rules in this game imo.

(3) Yes, or he could maybe carry (but not shoot) it with one hand.

(4) 1d10

I retconned and allowed them to fire reaction shots at the horde which reduced it by a further 2 mag.

for the flying rule, I believe it is specifically for Low-Altitude fliers. Also, what is the number next to the flyer trait indicative of? For example, whats the difference between Flyer (12) and Flyer (20). WAY too many spot rules. Agreed.

Fate points for healing! Thank you. I will commit that to memory.

So just to be clear, in the future I should see if anyone is surprised, and THEN have everyone roll initiative. In this way, surprised characters cannot act in the surprise round but everyone else can act accordingly. (As for hordes, do they attack everyone with ranged attacks or do I as the GM choose who they engage?) This way the other PCs may have torn up the horde a bit before the surprised characters took the brunt of their carnage.

Hordes pick who to attack at range and get (1st digit of Magnitude) number of ranged attacks.

They simply attack all enemies next to them in melee.

OK, that was throwing me. So it is DM discretion who gets attacked. Or say, if someone gets covered in pheremone, just have the hordes of tyranids go crazy after that player.

for the flying rule, I believe it is specifically for Low-Altitude fliers. Also, what is the number next to the flyer trait indicative of? For example, whats the difference between Flyer (12) and Flyer (20). WAY too many spot rules. Agreed.

Number next for example Flyer (20) tells how fast it moves. So, for my knowledge, Gargoyle would move, when flying, 20/40/60/120.

1: There is no bonus "suprise round". "A Surprised character loses his Turn in the first Round (DW Core p.235)." It is NOT, characters who suprise another gain a free bonus round. Characters who are not suprised roll for initiative and fight normally in the first round of combat.

2: Hordes can make their full number of melee attacks against every eligable target they are engaged with (DW Core p.360). Your horde would have had 1 attack against each marine they engaged (since gargoyles only have 1 melee attack and no multiple attack talents or arms). If they had 2 attacks, the horde would attack each marine twice. When shooting , hordes can make a number of shooting attacks equal to the first digit of their magnitude (to a min of one obviously).

3: When rolling horde damage, the bonus damage should be rolled with the normal damage (so 3D10+3 Tearing in this case). Your example was not wrong, as long as you remember the "bonus" damage isn't bonus or seperate sources of damage. The amount is about right for a horde, they are meant to hurt.

4: Every 2 DoS when attacking hordes earns an additional hit. A 3 DoS bolt pistol hit would get three hits on a horde (1 +1 for X +1 for 2 DoS). These are hits not damage, damage rolls cause magnitude damage. Rapid fire, blast, and devastating weapons are effective against hordes.

5: Attacking a target at Low Altitude imparts a -10 penalty. Low Altitude is, "... beyond the melee attack range of other creatures or characters on the ground , but is still within the range of most ranged attacks from such creatures or characters (DW Core p.210)." If the gargoyles were meleeing the battle brothers they were hovering which means no penalties.

6: Fog imparts a Hard(-20) test to sight based tests (DW Core p.248). Space Marines have hightened senses Hearing (+20), their tests here would be modified to a Challenging(+0) test. Auto Senses do not see through smoke.

7: Drawing a weapon (even with quickdraw) requires an empty hand to do so. The character can do this only when its his turn. The character with the Heavy Bolter would have either had to use a Ready action to put it away, or drop it (via a free action if you play with this option).

8: When a character is suprised, "He can do nothing except stand dumbfounded (DW Core p.235)." Which means he may do nothing. No reactions, no free actions, no calling or participating in squad mode or solo mode abilities; though he may still benefit from sustained abilities previously activated so long as the bonuses do not require the marine to do anything.

9: You may not dodge or parry ranged or melee attacks made by a horde. Conversely, hordes may not dodge or parry attacks made at them. There are some talents which make it possible to dodge or parry hordes.

10: The number in Flyer(12) is the character's Movement rate (essentially it counts as its AB for movement when flying). A flying(12) creature would have a Half Move of 12, a Full Move of 24, etc.

"4: Every 2 DoS when attacking hordes earns an additional hit. A 3 DoS bolt pistol hit would get three hits on a horde (1 +1 for X +1 for 2 DoS). These are hits not damage, damage rolls cause magnitude damage. Rapid fire, blast, and devastating weapons are effective against hordes."

Which becomes a huge, fun mess when calculating even more hits from semi-/full-auto fire.

"9: You may not dodge or parry ranged or melee attacks made by a horde."

Incorrect, unless FAQ/errata has changed it. "Melee attacks made by Hordes cannot be Parried or Dodged unless otherwise noted" (p. 360). No such clause exists under the Horde ranged attacks paragraph.

for the flying rule, I believe it is specifically for Low-Altitude fliers. Also, what is the number next to the flyer trait indicative of? For example, whats the difference between Flyer (12) and Flyer (20). WAY too many spot rules. Agreed.

Number next for example Flyer (20) tells how fast it moves. So, for my knowledge, Gargoyle would move, when flying, 20/40/60/120.

Ah, damnit that makes sense. I have been basing their movement speed on what is listed on enemy template, which is now obvious to me - ground speed. Thank you.

1: There is no bonus "suprise round". "A Surprised character loses his Turn in the first Round (DW Core p.235)." It is NOT, characters who suprise another gain a free bonus round. Characters who are not suprised roll for initiative and fight normally in the first round of combat.

2: Hordes can make their full number of melee attacks against every eligable target they are engaged with (DW Core p.360). Your horde would have had 1 attack against each marine they engaged (since gargoyles only have 1 melee attack and no multiple attack talents or arms). If they had 2 attacks, the horde would attack each marine twice. When shooting , hordes can make a number of shooting attacks equal to the first digit of their magnitude (to a min of one obviously).

3: When rolling horde damage, the bonus damage should be rolled with the normal damage (so 3D10+3 Tearing in this case). Your example was not wrong, as long as you remember the "bonus" damage isn't bonus or seperate sources of damage. The amount is about right for a horde, they are meant to hurt.

4: Every 2 DoS when attacking hordes earns an additional hit. A 3 DoS bolt pistol hit would get three hits on a horde (1 +1 for X +1 for 2 DoS). These are hits not damage, damage rolls cause magnitude damage. Rapid fire, blast, and devastating weapons are effective against hordes.

5: Attacking a target at Low Altitude imparts a -10 penalty. Low Altitude is, "... beyond the melee attack range of other creatures or characters on the ground , but is still within the range of most ranged attacks from such creatures or characters (DW Core p.210)." If the gargoyles were meleeing the battle brothers they were hovering which means no penalties.

6: Fog imparts a Hard(-20) test to sight based tests (DW Core p.248). Space Marines have hightened senses Hearing (+20), their tests here would be modified to a Challenging(+0) test. Auto Senses do not see through smoke.

7: Drawing a weapon (even with quickdraw) requires an empty hand to do so. The character can do this only when its his turn. The character with the Heavy Bolter would have either had to use a Ready action to put it away, or drop it (via a free action if you play with this option).

8: When a character is suprised, "He can do nothing except stand dumbfounded (DW Core p.235)." Which means he may do nothing. No reactions, no free actions, no calling or participating in squad mode or solo mode abilities; though he may still benefit from sustained abilities previously activated so long as the bonuses do not require the marine to do anything.

9: You may not dodge or parry ranged or melee attacks made by a horde. Conversely, hordes may not dodge or parry attacks made at them. There are some talents which make it possible to dodge or parry hordes.

10: The number in Flyer(12) is the character's Movement rate (essentially it counts as its AB for movement when flying). A flying(12) creature would have a Half Move of 12, a Full Move of 24, etc.

1. Right. I realize my mistake now and will handle it accordingly in the future.

2. OK, cool. I handled this correctly.

3. So I can either do like I did, (1d10+5 rolled twice, taking the larger and then adding 2d10) or I can roll 3d10+5 twice and take the larger result. This will basically be close to the same thing? These tricky little math differences take me for a ride sometimes - I got my degrees in the humanities damnit!

4. That would have been good to have committed to memory, damnit. I believe it was Magnus Grendel who told me that under the new living errata rules for horde damage, rolling damage against a horde is **** near pointless once a hit has been confirmed because the minimum damage will (almost) always result in magnitude damage. Is this wrong? And would it be heresy to skip the damage rolls on confirmed hits against a horde to speed up the process?

5. The gargoyles have not been in melee with anyone. They came out of the clouds at low altitude and have, up to this point, fired two fleshborer volleys at the Marines. They are now 4 m away from the marines and their turn is over.

6. Then I might have to house rule something to allow auto senses to see through smoke. I have a hard time justifying that when technology today allows heat signatures and infrared light to be picked up through smokescreen and somehow hyper advanced (compared to contemporary) power armor cannot see through smoke. But thank you. I was houseruling what the penalty would be because I completely forgot about fog rules.

7. That is what I was leaning towards. He decided to sit on his thumbs for the time being. It will be his turn soon and I am sure he wants to light up the sky.

8. AH... OK. It is coming back to me now. Oh well, the fact that they reacted makes up for me forgetting to add extra hits to other players 2 DoS bolt pistol shots. That won`t happen again.

9. No dodging any horde attacks whatsoever? Vicious. I like it. However, there does seem to be some disagreement among posters on this issue.

10. Yes, this got cleared up as well, but multiple clarifications help.

4. Just know the minimum damage/pen of your squad's weapons. It speeds combat up a LOT. Usually you have to roll damage on frag grenades because there is a chance that they could roll a result of 2 on 2d10. But for bolters hitting at 1d10+9 Pen 5 (for example, I'm AFB so apologies if that's not the right stat line), you know that anything with 5 or less Armor and under 10 TB is going to take at least minimum damage, so there's no need to roll.

6. I wouldn't. They're already immune to darkness. Giving them even more immunities in their armor is giving away possible penalties, which can have roleplaying effects not just mechanical ones. Fact is, high levels of fog CAN block infrared, and 40k technology spans a gamut from "frequently uses Industrial Revolution era technology" to "uses present day technology" to "uses super advanced stuff that is pure sci-fi to us." And a -20 penalty is hardly a killer especially using autofire RAW.

9. Living Errata made this addition re Horde ranged attacks: "Generally, the ranged attacks of a Horde may not be Dodged—this represents the Horde’s sheer volume of firepower. At the GM’s discretion, he may choose to allow certain ranged attacks from a Horde to be Dodged as normal. For example, a Horde of Chaos Heretics may possess a single missile launcher amongst their number. Since the entire horde is not firing missiles (they are instead firing autopistols), the missile launcher does not benefit from the Horde’s abilities regarding ranged attacks, and therefore receives no bonus damage and may be Dodged normally.” So, I was wrong. However having one single guy with a missile launcher who is also part of a horde throws a fundamental upset to the "mob of mechanically-uniform faceless minions" rules as they appear to be intended. In that situation I'd probably make missile-guy a solo using the Horde as cover.

Sorry for the double post but:

3. The former is correct (rolling 1d10+5 twice, then adding an additional +2d10 for a large Magnitude). The actual Fleshborer is a 1d10+5 Tearing weapon, which can be represented as 2d10k1+5. That is different than 6d10k3+5, which is what your 2nd option would model. In effect, it's allowing 2 more rerolls than the RAW would allow because the bonus damage isn't part of the weapon's base statline.

Sorry for the double post but:

3. The former is correct (rolling 1d10+5 twice, then adding an additional +2d10 for a large Magnitude). The actual Fleshborer is a 1d10+5 Tearing weapon, which can be represented as 2d10k1+5. That is different than 6d10k3+5, which is what your 2nd option would model. In effect, it's allowing 2 more rerolls than the RAW would allow because the bonus damage isn't part of the weapon's base statline.

Dude, double post as much as you like. I need clarifications like this, and I need them often in order for them to stick in my brain. I linked my players to this thread because we all need to commit little rules like this to memory so in the off chance that I forget again, they can call me on it.

On this same vein, what is the minimum damage a horde must take before its magnitude is reduced? Say I did throw that grenade and was rolling damage - what damage would it have to do before I got the multiple hits it produces?

You need to have a point of damage left over after the Damage - TB - AP equation (modified by things like Penetration and/or Felling) for the attack to deal Magnitude damage.

So...horde has TB 4, Armor 4. You hit it with a 2d10 Pen 0 frag grenade. You need to do at least 9 damage to hurt them (9 - 4 TB - 4 AP).

If you're instead shooting the same horde with a 1d10+9 Pen 4 bolter, you'll automatically damage it (minimum 10 damage - 4 TB = 6 leftover automatically, AP fully negated by Pen).

You need to have a point of damage left over after the Damage - TB - AP equation (modified by things like Penetration and/or Felling) for the attack to deal Magnitude damage.

So...horde has TB 4, Armor 4. You hit it with a 2d10 Pen 0 frag grenade. You need to do at least 9 damage to hurt them (9 - 4 TB - 4 AP).

If you're instead shooting the same horde with a 1d10+9 Pen 4 bolter, you'll automatically damage it (minimum 10 damage - 4 TB = 6 leftover automatically, AP fully negated by Pen).

That is what I thought. At least 1 point of damage left over. This simplifies things greatly.

Even if they were caught in a surprise round?

CRB under flying creatures mentions that a flying creature imposes a -10 to BS made against it. I cant recall pg number right now, sorry.

By quickdrawing his bolt pistol would he have dropped his HB on the ground?

One more - spending a fate point heals how much damage?

Actually Fire for Effect allows you to make a Standard Attack, not any other actions. So he couldn't have Quick Drawn. 'Tis one of the minuses of heavy weapons.

Even if they were caught in a surprise round?

CRB under flying creatures mentions that a flying creature imposes a -10 to BS made against it. I cant recall pg number right now, sorry.

By quickdrawing his bolt pistol would he have dropped his HB on the ground?

One more - spending a fate point heals how much damage?

Actually Fire for Effect allows you to make a Standard Attack, not any other actions. So he couldn't have Quick Drawn. 'Tis one of the minuses of heavy weapons.

I told him OOC, you may as well just leave squad mode to take advantage of your solo-mode ability. I am sure this will happen sooner or later.

So, as for the teams reactions, the majority of them (sans the Dev) are planning on utlizing Fire for Effect still. My question is this: When do the Fire for Effect shots happen? The Gargoyles are highest in the initiative order and have already fired and missed on the team. Should Fire for Effect then happen in response to this stimuli and take place immediately before each PC`s turn in their assigned orders of initiative?

Gargoyles act.

First Astarte calles Fire for Effect.

Fire for Effect shots occur.

Normal initiative for PCs continues.