That's exactly why I asked if the +60/-60 applies to Focus Power Tests.

I still think it does. p. 241 says "a test," not "a WS or BS test," and that's been the rule since Dark Heresy, I think (+/-30 then). And is why nowhere, in any printed material, is there an example of a test at less than -60 or more than +60. EDIT: it's definitely the case in Deathwatch, since it says "difficulty is determined by matching with the following table" or suchlike, and the table goes down to -60 and up to +60. It's hevaily implied, at any rate.

EDIT: EXCEPT!!!! there is a -70 for obtaining Unique items. Hmm.

Actually it's alluded to again in the creating daemon weapons section.

Otherwise the power is absurdly powerful and there must be a typo with the "3".

I think +/-60 is more of a game-designer guideline than a strict rule. I mean, BC is designed pretty well to give you less than 60 modifiers (physical or psychic attacks) almost all the time. And by the time players can add +60 to their test it wouldn't matter.

Think about it - 10PR*5 +10(for Psy-Focus) = +60 to Focus Power test. That's a lot of XP down the PR talents. Pushing might kill you, so I'm not considering it. By the time your psyker gets there, +10 or +20 to Focus power test wouldn't matter much. Or that will be a one-trick-psyker.

I think Huckelbery pulled his response out of his nether area, because the reply makes no sense. Or maybe I can't make it make sense.

Even a Psy Rating 3 Bound Psyker is carrying a weapon that can, on Fettered, with no risk , shoot into combat (unlike anybody else's), never runs out of ammo (unlike everybody else's), and can hit fast-moving targets with extreme ease (unlike everybody else's). When he is blind. When the target is camouflaged. (Somehow camo cloaks don't work.) Size makes no difference -- an equal number of bolts will hit a fly and a planet. Your chances to hit a charging Genestealer and a rock are the same. (The weapon can still be dodged though, for some reason!)

Moreover, he can presumably fire into melee with no chance of hitting friendlies. Which raises the question, again, of how the thing can be dodged, since it does not seem to matter what is in front of it.

Everybody else needs special talents to overcome all this stuff, but not the psyker!

It's expecially the chamo cloak bit here that gets me. That think over there -- in pitch darkness -- I can barely see it... BLAM!

(OK, he doesn't get aim or range bonuses. hmm)

(Moreover, this is absolutely not how Smite works in Deathwatch.)

Well, same goes the other way - Psyker has the same chance to hit an uber-huge sleeping daemon in the middle of the day, having no bonuses for it. In BC psykers are (pardon for the reference) more like Professor X than Cyclops. Different physics for immaterium and all that. Just imagine that chaos guys do it a bit different than guys from the other side.

Yes, rules for Powers in BC and OW are different from older lines. DH2e was somewhat in between (and I love Dodge(Wp) against spells).

Maybe this balances out with no suppressing fire, no overwatch, no called shots.

Which also makes it impossible to shoot past cover for no logical reason.

I don't think FFG thought this out.

EDIT: aha, a barrage or storm fired into melee will still hit friendlies.

EDIT: aha, a barrage or storm fired into melee will still hit friendlies.

Warp did it!

I decided to at least try it.

I still think there must be a typo with this power.

Maybe it's as simple as telekinetic powers not ignoring the Daemonic Trait. (which is the problem with the Great Unclean One).

Just to add another element to the discussion, don't forget if you have unnatural WP like 1K sons, that adds to your DoS when doling out the barrage.

OK I realize that BC needs a "crushing tanks" psychic power, but this one does seem silly.

I can't help but think that Daemonic is supposed to apply to it, since it is literally kinetic force.

There must be some something that makes it less obviously better than every other psychic attack.

Force Storm isn't really balanced at higher PR. It scales too fast compared to other powers. Flat caling damage is much better than +PRd10 of other 'big' powers as they can still roll low. I'd suggest lowering it to 2x or something. It'll still be absurd even then, though, at higher PR.

It's Blast powers that are area based, by the way.

And no, ranged combat modifiers do not apply to psychic powers. The [something] Bolt powers may mirror the single, semi and full-auto mechanics, but they are not Ballistic Skill attacks and therefore not affected by such combat modifiers.

Well that does help things then. That means that a Psy Rating 10 WP70 unbound psyker pushing with force storm actually cannot get his PR-mandated 15 maximum possible hits, because his maximum chance is 130 (70+60). On average he will get 8 or 9.

Nope, his base is 70(+5*PR), the 5*PR is not a modifier, it's the default value and so unaffected by the +/- 60 cap. Sorry.

+60/-60 is the maximum allowed positive or negative value to a test.

So if you have a total of +90 to a test, and -20 to the test, you would be at +70, reduced down to +60.

Same goes for negatives so -70 to acquire a Unique item, and you have no bonus, its -60 effective. It starts at -70 because you can get many positive modifiers.

So no matter how many positives or negatives you do not get above or below.

And Tenebrae if it states in the rules he/she gets a +5 to the test by PR rank, then that IS a modifier just like Aim is a flat bonus modifier, or does it say it increases his WP by 5 per rank?

You can safely assume that anything in any of the WH40K lines is affected by the max/min modifier rule, unless they have a talent that stops it...like max -30 to the roll.

+60/-60 is the maximum allowed positive or negative value to a test.

So if you have a total of +90 to a test, and -20 to the test, you would be at +70, reduced down to +60.

Same goes for negatives so -70 to acquire a Unique item, and you have no bonus, its -60 effective. It starts at -70 because you can get many positive modifiers.

Wait. Doesn't this mean that acquiring a good-craftsmanship unique item would have the same difficulty as acquiring a common-craftsmanship one? And acquiring 1 of them would have the same difficulty as acquiring 2?

+60/-60 is the maximum allowed positive or negative value to a test.

So if you have a total of +90 to a test, and -20 to the test, you would be at +70, reduced down to +60.

Same goes for negatives so -70 to acquire a Unique item, and you have no bonus, its -60 effective. It starts at -70 because you can get many positive modifiers.

Wait. Doesn't this mean that acquiring a good-craftsmanship unique item would have the same difficulty as acquiring a common-craftsmanship one? And acquiring 1 of them would have the same difficulty as acquiring 2?

Yes mechanics wise it does, but this is where I'd expect the GM to say ..sorry you were unsuccessful.. if the person attempting it has a 01 roll to make to succeed.

The GM can always say the item isn't available where you are, too.

This distrurbs me slightly.

Maybe the idea was that you have to bring it UP to -60 to be able to acquire something in the first place (meaning you could only get a common-craftsmanship version of a Unique item, or a couple of poor-craftsmanship ones)

Remember that you can trade items you already have to get a bonus on an acquisition test.

I have always treated the +60/-60 limit as a final limit after all modifiers have been put into place, applied to the characteristic in question. This should mean that if I want to trade some damaged suits of armour taken from the corpses of the Dark Angel Deathwing (treat as a 50-100 sets poor-quality Terminator armour) in exchange for a Warhound Titan from the the vaults of Forge Castir, I can do that. There might still be some favours involved, but hey- what are compacts for?

Note: No, I have not slaughtered the entire Deathwing, nor have I acquired a Titan. Yet. This example was used to show how opposing edge cases can balance out to a relatively sane value. Also, I apologize for the digression, as this only peripherally relates to the Force Storm case.

I have always treated the +60/-60 limit as a final limit after all modifiers have been put into place, applied to the characteristic in question.

It's the limit of the sum of all modifiers, BEFORE you test against your characteristic +/- modifier sum.

I'm confused- that's what I meant to say, but I think my version of the statement was not entirely complete. Here's the intent of what I said illustrated in a couple of examples.

Example: I'm testing Infamy to acquire something, and my infamy is 125 (the GM has a very high ascension threshold). The modifiers to acquire it are -85, and the GM says "okay, roll for it." Applied modifier is limited to -60, so I need to roll a (125-60=65) a 65 or less. I roll a 60 and get the best craftsmanship unique terminator armour once worn by Horus himself.

Alt. Example: I'm testing Willpower to get up in the morning. The GM rules that it's a stupidly easy task at +100, but only a +60 is applied to the test. My Willpower is 15 (I'm playing a lethargic teenager in an emo stage), so I need to roll a 75 or better to get up. I roll 85 and stay in bed all day.

Is that what you are saying, BT? I think I may need to rephrase- "I have always treated the limit as a final limit after all modifiers have been put in place, to the modifier finally applied to the characteristic in question" reads more clearly.

The thing with that first example is that I'm fairly certain you can't acquisition something if the final modifier is lower than -60.

Second example is silly. There's no need to test for something as trivial as getting up in the morning. And if he does want you to in that sort of situation, you just fail and stay in bed as you said. That's the issue with low willpower, eh?

The thing with that first example is that I'm fairly certain you can't acquisition something if the final modifier is lower than -60.

This makes sense, but it's not stated anywhere.

The thing with that first example is that I'm fairly certain you can't acquisition something if the final modifier is lower than -60.

This makes sense, but it's not stated anywhere.

Yeah, it's probably a house rule adapted from the Wrought for Purpose daemon weapons crafting rules to avoid abuses and ****. -70 modifier or less on that and it just can't be done, no matter how high your tech-use might be.

There is however a rule that states that if the final modifier ends up at 0 or less, an item is impossible to get. Just as something above 100 is automatic. But that's laughable if you're in some kind of crazy game where people have 100+ Infamy. Straight-up unbalanced for gameplay, assuming ordinary rules are in play. Everything short of the most rarest stuff is an automatic get.

Bro- I was being deliberately silly to make a point- the point being that stupidly easy stuff caps at a +60 value of stupidly easy applied to the stat. Getting up in the morning was my deliberately silly example of stupidly easy.

And the lethargic teenager failed for the lulz.

Also- please don't use phrases like 'most rarest.' 'Most' is implicit to 'rarest,' 'best,' 'coolest,' and &c.

Many games are expected to go to 100+ infamy, if the GM set a high infamy bar for ascension. Even then I'd expect a -60 to acquire certain things, and on success require one or more runs to acquire them.