While the FFG Star Wars system isn't all that worried about character balance, the Sullustans in AoR seem somewhat underpowered compared to other options. Most of the nonhuman species have a 3 and a 1 in their stats, a bonus rank to one skill (or choice of two), and a free talent or other special ability.

Sullustans have the stats and skill rank (though I could argue that Astrogation is a rather weak skill from a story standpoint), but lack any bonus ability. I don't know how much it fits into the existing lore, but based on D20 and SWSE, I'd expect them to have some kind of dark-vision ability. Possibly give them the same benefits as Scanner Goggles, for free.

Sullustans also get a rank of Skilled Jockey for free. They are actually really strong in space. But otherwise I agree, they need some work in land based abilities.

Actually, Skilled Jockey works good for ground vehicles as well, as you're more likely to have setback dice applied from terrain when you're dirtside than when flying amongst the stars.

Seeing as how the Sullustans have a high base Agility, I'd say they're pretty good as is, since by default they're good shots and good pilots, which seems to be their "thing" in this edition. And given the increased emphasis on combat (most of which is ranged) that AoR has (Duty gives bonus to Wound Threshold, almost every career offers Ranged - Light as a career skill), having that high base Agility is pretty impressive.

The free rank in Astrogation is a decent nod to their similar prowess in the old D6 system without having the same problems the D6 version of the Sullustans had. You could probably make a case that the bonus skill rank for a lot of species is "useless in given situations;" after all, what good is a Wookiee's free rank in Brawl if the bulk of the campaign is all about starship combat?

Actually, Skilled Jockey works good for ground vehicles as well, as you're more likely to have setback dice applied from terrain when you're dirtside than when flying amongst the stars.

Seeing as how the Sullustans have a high base Agility, I'd say they're pretty good as is, since by default they're good shots and good pilots, which seems to be their "thing" in this edition. And given the increased emphasis on combat (most of which is ranged) that AoR has (Duty gives bonus to Wound Threshold, almost every career offers Ranged - Light as a career skill), having that high base Agility is pretty impressive.

The free rank in Astrogation is a decent nod to their similar prowess in the old D6 system without having the same problems the D6 version of the Sullustans had. You could probably make a case that the bonus skill rank for a lot of species is "useless in given situations;" after all, what good is a Wookiee's free rank in Brawl if the bulk of the campaign is all about starship combat?

Just out of curiosity, what were those problems you refer to?

Sullustans in WEG 2E got a bonus of +1d on astrogation tasks, a +2d bonus on perception or search tests involving vision, and can't get lost dirtside in any place they have been before. Not a terribly big thing. The can't get lost isn't too useful.

Duros in WEG 2E got to double the value of initial skill dice allocations (including specialty die), so they could start with a maximum of att+4D instead of the maximum att+3D for other species... (both of which include the Att+(2D starting skill dice)+(1d Specialty costing 1 skill pip)... but had no continuing bonus.

d20/Saga may have Übered them some...

Sullustans also get a rank of Skilled Jockey for free. They are actually really strong in space. But otherwise I agree, they need some work in land based abilities.

Oh, geez. I read right past that somehow. Derp derp derp.

Actually, Skilled Jockey works good for ground vehicles as well, as you're more likely to have setback dice applied from terrain when you're dirtside than when flying amongst the stars.

Seeing as how the Sullustans have a high base Agility, I'd say they're pretty good as is, since by default they're good shots and good pilots, which seems to be their "thing" in this edition. And given the increased emphasis on combat (most of which is ranged) that AoR has (Duty gives bonus to Wound Threshold, almost every career offers Ranged - Light as a career skill), having that high base Agility is pretty impressive.

The free rank in Astrogation is a decent nod to their similar prowess in the old D6 system without having the same problems the D6 version of the Sullustans had. You could probably make a case that the bonus skill rank for a lot of species is "useless in given situations;" after all, what good is a Wookiee's free rank in Brawl if the bulk of the campaign is all about starship combat?

I would agree that they are plenty capable in personal scale challenges, but are they interesting enough to draw players to them? Overall, I'd like to see more unique species abilities and more diversity in what they are capable of. Right now, there's not much flexibility for Duros, Sullustans, or Mon Calamari. They all seem very "typecast" into their various roles. On the other hand, Humans (any 2 non-career skills), Ithorians (bellow and survival, not super related), and Gran (social and perception, very dynamic) have abilities that allow them to succeed in unique and interesting ways in a variety of situations.

While a Wookiee might not gain anything in a space based game, I think the assumption that a majority of GMs will run their games with at least 50% of the encounters on the ground would be a fair one to make. I don't think designing not one, but two species with special abilities tailored just for starships and vehicles is really an ideal design decision. Functional? Sure. But could it be better? I think so, and that's why we're beta testing.

I think that Sullustans are not underpowered, but could use some diversification. I don't think that nostalgia for the WEG stuff is enough of a reason to make Sullustans one dimensional.

Having a 3 Agility is a nice thing to have. Many players in our group made sure to buy that 3 even if they weren't primarily ranged combat monkeys. Few players will struggle to integrate that 3 into their character concept, unlike Presence or Brawn for example.

I think Astrogation is written in stone given the givens, but Skilled Jockey could be replaced with an echolocation ability. It would make the Sullustans more than 1D and give them something to do when indoors.

I think it's infravision, actually, but yeah -- I think a dark-vision ability would serve better than good flying.

Wouldn't be a bad idea, and actually useful for ground missions...compare with the Mon Cal ampbibious thing, which is pretty niche and low-worth, mechanically.

I know that FFG is definitely digging into the old well that is WEG for a lot of their design considerations on this line, but in the case of Sullustans, I'm not sure the Astrogation rank is the way to go.

Sure, they may have some renown for being pilots and navigators, but honestly, Duros have a much better 'lock' on that claim, and I think come to mind first when EU buffs think of hyperspace explorers. Moreover, I'd say that the Duros species ability (with the free advantage on Astrogation rolls) is unilaterally 'better' since the rank in Astrogation can be easily duplicated, and the Duros ability can't.

I think 'nimble and perceptive' makes for a better all-around appealing choice for the Sullustans as a species, since it lends itself nicely to the piloting role while not simultaneously shoehorning them into it, which--let's be honest--a lot of Star Wars species could use some help being un-shoehorned.

As a point of interest, when Cyril did his write-up for the Unofficial Species Menagerie, he gave them a free rank in Perception as well as darkvision, but he also based a lot of his conversions of the d20 versions of the species he worked on.

While I don't think Sullustans are underpowered in this version, I could see them being offered the choice of Astrogation or Perception as their free skill rank, the later as a continued nod to the old d6 version.

Dark/infravision I'm not sold on, mostly as a number of species that had such a thing in prior versions (notably d20) don't have it in this version. Twi'leks had low-light vision in d20, but don't get any sort of visual bonus in FFG's version. Same too with Trandoshans and Rodians, just to name a couple more. Honestly, I think a lot of that was simply an artifact of WotC's system being derived from D&D, which has had special vision types for most of its races since the early days.

I know that FFG is definitely digging into the old well that is WEG for a lot of their design considerations on this line...

Not surprising, given how well-received and popular WEG was to the Star Wars community (not all of the Star Wars community, but most that I've ever met).

I know that FFG is definitely digging into the old well that is WEG for a lot of their design considerations on this line...

Not surprising, given how well-received and popular WEG was to the Star Wars community (not all of the Star Wars community, but most that I've ever met).

Well, seeing as how it was the only Star Wars game in town for quite some time, that's not surprising. The d20 versions, especially the OCR and RCR, had the problems of being "D&D in Space" which didn't sit well with a number of folks. Saga Edition was better about, not being such an obvious D&D clone, but the fact it still used the core d20 mechanics (including a class & level system) didn't sit well with those folks that enjoyed D6's "advance as you will" approach (although at least one of the designers said in hindsight that approach had a lot of problems, since the game was never designed to really support campaigns that ran for more than a dozen or so adventures).

That, and the system itself was - at least in my experience, and the experiences of those I've played with - a great means of bringing life to the Star Wars universe. Some may disagree, others might not; but if the games I've played in for the past twelve years are anything to go by, it was a genuinely excellent system. Not PERFECT, but still excellent.

That, and the system itself was - at least in my experience, and the experiences of those I've played with - a great means of bringing life to the Star Wars universe. Some may disagree, others might not; but if the games I've played in for the past twelve years are anything to go by, it was a genuinely excellent system. Not PERFECT, but still excellent.

Yeah, while I see that the paradigm pendulum of gaming has swung in the other direction (and I really like where it's swung), I had a lot of good times playing d20 Star Wars. OCR/RCR had the "D&D in space" problem more so than Saga, which is still my favorite d20 system there is (I still GM a campaign of it even now that Edge has hit the table).

But yes, I had many fine years of fine Star Wars gaming under the old guard, and I look forward to many more under the new.

Well, I (happily) admit that EotE has managed to supplant WEG as my favourite Star Wars RPG.

I don't think designing not one, but two species with special abilities tailored just for starships and vehicles is really an ideal design decision. Functional? Sure. But could it be better? I think so, and that's why we're beta testing.

I got the impression that both species, regardless of modifiers or similarities, were included in AoR main book because of their being "iconic rebellion species". Of course, slusts were only one dude in the movie, not sure how iconic that is, but heck so was chewie in the IV-VI. I don't get the impression that FFG (and this system in particular), is trying to mold pegs to fit holes that they shouldn't fit. I think they are staying very true to the setting. The Gran's inclusion kinda gives me some pause to this assessment, but heck, I like 'em, though I could have seen a stronger case for the inclusion of dressellians.

I have a player that's using a Sullustan Explorer (Fringer/Trader). He's a solid co-pilot and a social character, and Agility 3 makes him fair in combat too. The player is thrilled with him and hardly considers then species to be lacking,

Sullustans in WEG 2E got a bonus of +1d on astrogation tasks, a +2d bonus on perception or search tests involving vision, and can't get lost dirtside in any place they have been before. Not a terribly big thing. The can't get lost isn't too useful.

I'd have to disagree with the last statement, and the idea that a character is underpowered because his trait or benefits might never see use. Because if you've got a GM worth half his salt, he'll write a campaign where such a character will have a chance to show of those skills, meaning that they ARE useful.

I'd have to disagree with the last statement, and the idea that a character is underpowered because his trait or benefits might never see use. Because if you've got a GM worth half his salt, he'll write a campaign where such a character will have a chance to show of those skills, meaning that they ARE useful.

While I don't necessarily think Sullustans are underpowered, I dislike this argument. GM intervention can "solve" virtually any mechanical problem. That doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist.

Most games take place primarily at character scale. Some species have bonuses that really only benefit them in character-scale situations, but that means their benefits can potentially apply 70 to 90 percent of the time. A species that has starship- or vehicle-only benefits is, then, only potentially able to apply their benefits rarely. Both sullustan and duros have this problem -- in both cases they have one benefit directed towards piloting and another towards Astrogation checks.

Of those two I'd argue that the sullustan gets the even-shorter end of the stick, since they're getting a free skill rank in a rarely-used skill and a benefit to piloting that's entirely dependent on outside factors causing them setbacks. By contrast, a duros gets a skill rank that applies to all their piloting checks and a modest benefit to the rare astrogation check (which also does not depend on outside factors to become useful). Still, I'm not interested in arguing Duros vs Sullustan -- What I'd prefer is to see both races get one of their two ship-centric abilities swapped out for a more generally applicable effect.

Not that Mon Cal are that much better off with Amphibious; honest truth is I find the new races in AoR to be kind of underwhelming, except for the awesome Ithorians. The Gran aren't bad and seem pretty much in line with races like Bothans or Twileks.

Well, to be fair our Sullustan is the co-pilot of our ship. He's the second best pilot and the best astrogator aboard. He's very happy with the secies as written.

Most games take place primarily at character scale. Some species have bonuses that really only benefit them in character-scale situations, but that means their benefits can potentially apply 70 to 90 percent of the time. A species that has starship- or vehicle-only benefits is, then, only potentially able to apply their benefits rarely. Both sullustan and duros have this problem -- in both cases they have one benefit directed towards piloting and another towards Astrogation checks.

Of those two I'd argue that the sullustan gets the even-shorter end of the stick, since they're getting a free skill rank in a rarely-used skill and a benefit to piloting that's entirely dependent on outside factors causing them setbacks. By contrast, a duros gets a skill rank that applies to all their piloting checks and a modest benefit to the rare astrogation check (which also does not depend on outside factors to become useful). Still, I'm not interested in arguing Duros vs Sullustan -- What I'd prefer is to see both races get one of their two ship-centric abilities swapped out for a more generally applicable effect.

Not that Mon Cal are that much better off with Amphibious; honest truth is I find the new races in AoR to be kind of underwhelming, except for the awesome Ithorians. The Gran aren't bad and seem pretty much in line with races like Bothans or Twileks.

I completely understand where you're coming from. I'm not quoting you to make this an argument, or even to retort to what you listed, I'm just using it at the counter point to mine.

I agree with the quoted, from a mechanical point of view, but I always tell people that just because a species/race isn't great at something, doesn't mean that they don't/shouldn't exist. In fact, I find that when players make a species/class that goes semi-against the grain, they tend to make more memorable characters in general. Thing's like duros and pilot are practically synonymous, but my favorite duros player was a marauder, in EtoE. One of the more memorable trandos I've run for, is a doctor, but his bedside manner is horridly funny. I think it's awesome when players go out of type, but keep the cultural (fluff), for the species, as is. The bothan that abhors violence, yet he is an assassin or bounty hunter.

I always tell potential players, most assuredly, their culture produces a whole margin of careers, I would assume less then 10% actually coming into any situation that would ever "make use" of their bonus. Not much call for astrogation as a butcher, kinda thing.

Of all the systems I've played, this one penalizes one the least for going out of type.

That said, we can all agree that the bonuses "are" very duros, trando, etc... They make sense, as I know them (the species). But I'd hate to think people are playing to type-cast when creating a character. I mean, if they want to make a duros pilot, that's great! If not, that's great too. Just my take.