As I won't be watching the new movies anyway, whatever Disney decides to do with them will have the same impact on my games as 'Caravan of Courage' and 'the Holiday Special'. And whatever Dave Filoni says about stormtroopers has as much effect on my game as whatever Dave Cameron says about them

I think you're wrong here. (And wrong in a subtle and self-centered way.) It's not about you. You might not have your expectations changed, but you are not the only one whose expectations matter in your game.

Unless your player base all agree, it WILL impact your game, because it will affect your players expectations when you say "Star Wars" and/or allow wookies, trandoshans, twileks, etc.. It will affect who's willing to accept your AU, as well.

So, logically, your presumption is probably false.

My current group, we've got one player who keeps commingling/confounding the Noghri and the Chiss.

*groan* Dude, that's why I stated what I did about (deliberate) divergences from canon... it's fine if the GM makes them clear ahead of time and is specific about what those divergences are.

*groan* Dude, that's why I stated what I did about (deliberate) divergences from canon... it's fine if the GM makes them clear ahead of time and is specific about what those divergences are.

Some people don't want to be civil, I guess.

I still don't see how 'canon' affects our games, or yours, or anyone else's. I probably wouldn't want to play in ErikB's game, but that's fine, because he doesn't have to play in mine, either.

If Dave Filoni now announces that in the future, wookiees will be green, mine will still be brown. *shrug*

'Battle for Endor' doesn't affect my games, and neither will whatever Disney dreams up next.

It *is* important for me to make an effort to keep internal consistency, which is why I've been grateful for your assistance

But my players just want to be awesome. They're not especially bothered as to what NPCs I use or don't use, as long as I make them interesting.

Since Dr. Who made absolutely ZERO sense to me, and until the last 10 years, I knew two people who liked it. I knew a dozen who knew more about it than "it's a show and a game"...

The lack of canon is its biggest flaw. What can a Sonic Screwdriver do? way too freaking much, and yet, never enough.

It's lack of a strong sense of canon in the early years has actually been complained about by current staff... but then, keep in mind - Dr. Who was "disposable" in the early days. It was shot and edited on videotape, aired, and then erased. It's pretty easy to get buy with no canon if people can't rewatch it to find continuity errors.

But even then, there was a series "bible" with certain axioms that the Dr. lived by. it was a weak canon, not no-canon.

So is there a betting pool as to how much longer this thread will go before it gets locked?

Seeing a fair bit of sniping at other posters, though nothing too offensive... yet.

sucks to be you.

Sucks to be FFG and Disney if they try to sell stuff promoting terrorism.

Ok someone has to make reality check right now.

So that's 4 difficulty dice... would that be 3 setback dice too for being Erik?

I'd think it would have to be a daunting check....

Its as canon specific as you want to be, just as Filoni and his team get to decide how that show deals with them.

Personally the storyline as been mentioned sounds like a typical Star Wars game and I'm looking forward to seeing how they handle that!

But as far as my game is concerned the only storm troopers I need to fine tune are those that might become recurring npc's and lets be honest they'll have to survive the players first!

I do like the idea of the Inquisitors but have my own ideas in that particular parking space, won't stop me having an Inquisitor being in charge of any agents I plan on developing with Sith-like abilities but since I don't plan on them being especially powerful since I have this image of one side the Brotherhood being male force users who are more melee combat orientated their opposing rival the Sisterhood being more actual force powered working in three's so they can focus on one area of the force whilst unlike their male rivals they rely on Storm troopers for backup being considerably less psychotic and more genre savvy enough to actually want to avoid getting killed!

So one side is Darth Maul-like but prone to dangerous actions that should probably get them killed, the other is genuinely more dangerous but less likely to put themselves at risk but work better with others as a result making it look like the storm troopers are the ones in charge... now I know this thread is about whether storm troopers are awful ,but I do like to show they're actually capable but once in a while a star wars moment will just happen and if it makes the game more enjoyable who am I to argue?!

@ copperbell: Well, then you'd be looking at Stormtrooper Sergeants right off of the bat...

The interesting thing re: the idea of the Inquisitors is that thanks to the accumulation (or bloat) of Imperial darksiders in lore, there's plenty of room to find something on which to model your Brotherhood or Sisterhood on, or add to their own lore with.

I'll wait to actually see how the series shapes up itself, but it won't affect my interpretation. I read this bit of trivia and have higher hopes if he is given some leeway. I would have liked to have seen that Clone Wars series. Definitely sounds more Edge of the Empire.

On the Rebel Force Radio podcast

http://www.shotglassdigital.com/release/rebelforce-radio-october-18-2013/

Highlights -

-Rebels to be less dark than The Clone Wars

-Stormtroopers much less competent soldiers than Clone Troopers in part due to not having the good example of the Jedi to live up to

They at least could have made the stormies "lack" sound like it was something cool, or explained how humans (non-clones) would be less competent due to not being "bred" into it.

I'll wait to actually see how the series shapes up itself, but it won't affect my interpretation. I read this bit of trivia and have higher hopes if he is given some leeway. I would have liked to have seen that Clone Wars series. Definitely sounds more Edge of the Empire.

You haven't seen the clone wars cartoon? That's almost a sin. By far the best Star Wars in years, IMO.

I'll wait to actually see how the series shapes up itself, but it won't affect my interpretation. I read this bit of trivia and have higher hopes if he is given some leeway. I would have liked to have seen that Clone Wars series. Definitely sounds more Edge of the Empire.

You haven't seen the clone wars cartoon? That's almost a sin. By far the best Star Wars in years, IMO.

Go read the link you are quoting. He never said he didn't watch the Clone Wars series. He said he would have liked to have seen the version of the Clone War series speculated at in his link.

For the record, I watched season 1 of Clone Wars and couldn't bring myself to watch another season. I can't fault it, it was afterall a cartoon. I had just hoped for something more then, well, a cartoon version of Star Wars. My 3 year old daughter loves it though.

They at least could have made the stormies "lack" sound like it was something cool, or explained how humans (non-clones) would be less competent due to not being "bred" into it.

Well, do they really need to do a lot of explanation?

The Clone Troopers were bred using a stock template of a fairly badass bounty hunter/mercenary, and given extensive training in combat via flash training and actual physical drills from when they were created.

Stormtroopers, being regular human recruits, don't have any of that. Consider your average real-world Army member. Most of them come from middle-class backgrounds, and didn't devote every waking moment to being a soldier. The bulk of their combat training came from boot camp, where they were drilled in the basics of marksmanship, tactics, athletics, and generally not getting shot. The above-the-norm soldiers are the ones that grew up hunting or having to survive on less than the average middle-class family or grew up in an environment that pretty much required the same kind of traits that you'd need in a soldier.

To borrow a bit from Warhammer 40K (specifically the minis game), the average Imperial Guardsman isn't anything special... but then you've got those Guardsmen that came from 'death worlds,' places so nasty that even John Rambo wouldn't last more than a day at best, and those Guardsmen are pretty badass as soldiers, because they're from an environment that requires such traits for daily survival.

To bring it back around to stormtroopers, I would imagine that many of the above-the-norm caliber of stormtroopers would come from worlds that aren't as "cushy" or "civilized' as the Core Worlds, while the rank-and-file are akin to what we see in the bulk of the Original Trilogy and EU; dangerous and competent compared to your average galactic civilian, but not so much in comparison to the heroes, who themselves are a mix of being more dangerous, competent, and cunning than the average galactic civilian.

So yes, stormtroopers are going to pale in comparison to someone like Han Solo or Chewbacca or an ESB Luke Skywalker or even Princess Leia, because those four are themselves exceptional individuals. And with time and XP, the PCs will become equally exceptional individuals able to mow through squads of stormtroopers like a hot knife through butter.

For the record, I watched season 1 of Clone Wars and couldn't bring myself to watch another season. I can't fault it, it was afterall a cartoon. I had just hoped for something more then, well, a cartoon version of Star Wars. My 3 year old daughter loves it though.

Yeah, I also wasn't that impressed with the TV series. Mostly as I just really couldn't stand Ahsoka. Not even Anakin was that flippantly disrespectful to Obi-Wan as she was to Anakin; Anakin at least had the excuse of not being raised by the Order, something Ahsoka can't claim.

Had the show stuck to the guideline that mouthymerc linked to, that I think might have been a much more interesting show and one that might have been worth watching on my part.

The show improved significantly during its third season. The first two were pretty rough.

Yeah, I also wasn't that impressed with the TV series. Mostly as I just really couldn't stand Ahsoka. Not even Anakin was that flippantly disrespectful to Obi-Wan as she was to Anakin; Anakin at least had the excuse of not being raised by the Order, something Ahsoka can't claim.

It was a cartoon, so Ahsoka was thrown in for the younger audience it targeted. Had to have some teen angst in there. Fine for a younger audience, still irritating for me.

Adding to that irritation was hearing split-in-half Darth Maul would make a return. I'm ok, it was just a flesh wound! That was in the same pit as Boba Fett's return in the EU for me. How about being creative and making up a new bad guy? That's what you get paid for.

Oh, sorry, off topic. Stormtroopers don't suck!

They at least could have made the stormies "lack" sound like it was something cool, or explained how humans (non-clones) would be less competent due to not being "bred" into it.

Well, do they really need to do a lot of explanation?

The Clone Troopers were bred using a stock template of a fairly badass bounty hunter/mercenary, and given extensive training in combat via flash training and actual physical drills from when they were created.

Stormtroopers, being regular human recruits, don't have any of that. Consider your average real-world Army member. Most of them come from middle-class backgrounds, and didn't devote every waking moment to being a soldier. The bulk of their combat training came from boot camp, where they were drilled in the basics of marksmanship, tactics, athletics, and generally not getting shot. The above-the-norm soldiers are the ones that grew up hunting or having to survive on less than the average middle-class family or grew up in an environment that pretty much required the same kind of traits that you'd need in a soldier.

To borrow a bit from Warhammer 40K (specifically the minis game), the average Imperial Guardsman isn't anything special... but then you've got those Guardsmen that came from 'death worlds,' places so nasty that even John Rambo wouldn't last more than a day at best, and those Guardsmen are pretty badass as soldiers, because they're from an environment that requires such traits for daily survival.

To bring it back around to stormtroopers, I would imagine that many of the above-the-norm caliber of stormtroopers would come from worlds that aren't as "cushy" or "civilized' as the Core Worlds, while the rank-and-file are akin to what we see in the bulk of the Original Trilogy and EU; dangerous and competent compared to your average galactic civilian, but not so much in comparison to the heroes, who themselves are a mix of being more dangerous, competent, and cunning than the average galactic civilian.

So yes, stormtroopers are going to pale in comparison to someone like Han Solo or Chewbacca or an ESB Luke Skywalker or even Princess Leia, because those four are themselves exceptional individuals. And with time and XP, the PCs will become equally exceptional individuals able to mow through squads of stormtroopers like a hot knife through butter.

I'm fine with conscript stormtroopers being inferior than Kaminoan Fett-clones. Ditto for the Spaarti Fett-clones and the Spaarti non-Fett clones.

It's the depiction of units of Kaminoan Fett-clones being incompetent that gets to me. By 0 ABY, most Kaminoan Fett-clones still in service are with Vander's 501st Legion and the Death Squadron.

Then again the 501st sucking can be rationalized up-thread by when the stormtroopers are ordered to kill (aboard Tantive IV, on Tattooine, on Hoth, on Endor - assuming those are all 501st detachments) vs when they're told to subdue to "put up a good show" (Tantive IV vs Leia, aboard the Death Star to allow the Falcon to escape so the ship could be tracked). I'd think original Fett clones in the 501st who were aboard the Death Star (if any) would be real pissed their lives were being sold as a distraction when they're elite troops.

Well, the 501st are the elite of the elite of the elite, being Vader's personal stormtrooper legion. And Lord Vader is not known for his willingness to accept a bunch of Spaceballs into being members of said personal stormtrooper legion.

One of the more amusing Vader moments I've ever seen was him going "oh no, what's gotten into you? I hope you've got an able-bodied staff" at an Imperial officer that he was Force choking...

Also, for an interesting look at stormies from a clone stormtrooper PoV... (Note: It's never actually indicated just who his template was.)

I'm a fan of A Clone Apart.

DM: I'm fully aware of the differences between war driven clones and human stormtroopers. I wasn't insinuating that they shouldn't be inferior; I was just saying it could have had a better spin on it.

Truth be told, I can't imagine how The Empire managed to hold onto the systems/universe as long as it did. If the movies were any indication, their army was horrid. No wonder the primitive ewoks whooped up on them. Just shocks me that no one else did (actually squashed them, not just opposed them) in the 20+ years.

Personally, I have to spice them up a bit, just to provide the answers to that. All I was saying was they could have made it sound better. The results are the same.

Sturn: I read what the link said, that wee top paragraph states a "what was intended", while the next 14 discuss what was. I just read "I wish I would have seen THAT series wrong. I though he was saying he hadn't see "The Clone Wars", any of it, not the wee top paragraph. A bunch of peeps, in other countries, haven't had the opportunity to watch it, it doesn’t air. . I was going to see if said person would like to utilize my copies of the five seasons, to watch and mail them back. I think overall, especially the last 3 seasons, it was better then the latest movies. The movies (1-3) had some really cool concepts and elements of them were awesome, but as a whole they were poop.

As to the star wars cartoon, as pointed out Ahsoka was trained later in life. She was a teen and she acted it. That said, Anakin actually encouraged her rebelliousness, and her questioning of authority. On the occasions when he was serious with her, he would say that and she would act appropriately for the most part. She wasn't acting like that to peeve him; it was how their relationship worked. It was getting them more attached to each other, that way when the inevitable conversion to Darth took place; Ahsoka’s fate would prove that much harder for Anakin to decide. Again, no matter how bad the cartoon was, I still found it much better then the last three movies, and the final few seasons of the cartoon were greatly improved. Ahsoka actually became a rather deep character. But to each their own.

Consider your average real-world Army member. Most of them come from middle-class backgrounds, and didn't devote every waking moment to being a soldier. The bulk of their combat training came from boot camp, where they were drilled in the basics of marksmanship, tactics, athletics, and generally not getting shot. The above-the-norm soldiers are the ones that grew up hunting or having to survive on less than the average middle-class family or grew up in an environment that pretty much required the same kind of traits that you'd need in a soldier.

I think the quality or type of training a soldier receives has more to do with the job they are selected for than anything else. The only thing the poor kids from hunting families are going to have a leg-up on is scoring that marksman badge/ribbon during basic. Obviously, the guy in the infantry is going to have better combat training than the guy working in finance, but that's more a function of their jobs than any inherent "soldiery" qualities.

It's the depiction of units of Kaminoan Fett-clones being incompetent that gets to me. By 0 ABY, most Kaminoan Fett-clones still in service are with Vander's 501st Legion and the Death Squadron.

By 0 ABY, most Kaminoan Fett-clones are dead, and the rest are ancient. Adult diapers ancient. Given their absurdly high casulaty rates during the Clone Wars and the rapidity with which they aged, it's highly unlikely that there are still any in Imperial service at all by the time the Battle of Yavin rolls around. (Though, if there's a canon exception, I'll gladly stand corrected.)

Sidenote: Is anyone else disturbed by Star Wars fandom's habit of comparatively referring to cloned humans as "Clones" and non-cloned humans as "Human" as if a cloned human is somehow less human or not a person?

Sidenote: Is anyone else disturbed by Star Wars fandom's habit of comparatively referring to cloned humans as "Clones" and non-cloned humans as "Human" as if a cloned human is somehow less human or not a person?

They're referred to as "clones" in the setting too. They're explicitly thought of in-setting as less-human. Consider their origins: a Jedi Master secretly consented to the creation of an army of sentients who were genetically altered for obedience, born into slavery, indoctrinated to warfare and patriotism, and never had a choice about whether or not they were going to lay down their lives. It's pretty dark stuff.

^ I kind of view them as a cross between a human and a droid, personally. The goal was an army devoid of empathy, along with the other stuff mentioned. It's not right to call them humans , as they are preprogrammed killers. For the most part they don't have free will (aside from a handful), and blindly toss their lives, and those if their brothers, away. Say what you will, but that's somewhere other then human.