I kind of view them as a cross between a human and a droid, personally.

Yeah, we treat them as biological droids (don't care about canon). The players can shoot them without caring about morality issues (save for our marksman, who feels these are mercy-kills and prays for the release of their souls when she snipes them...)

The Empire mostly treats them as disposable troops, as they are unswervingly loyal, easy to mass-produce by the billion, and of a reasonable fighting standard for cannon fodder. There are cloned leaders, elites and specialists that may be of Rival or even Nemesis standard. The individual minions are not especially fearsome to a PC-level character, but they are dangerous in the vast numbers the Empire fields them.

Ashoka was also chosen for Anakin, I believe, because she was rebellious. She was a test for him as much as he was for her.. am I wrong in thinking that?

Ashoka was also chosen for Anakin, I believe, because she was rebellious. She was a test for him as much as he was for her.. am I wrong in thinking that?

I do believe that was said somewhere along the way. And it follows, since Ahsoka ( any Padawan, for that matter), was thrust upon him without his foreknowledge and against his wishes.

Hmmm... now that I think about it, it's like every cop movie from the 80's.

It's the depiction of units of Kaminoan Fett-clones being incompetent that gets to me. By 0 ABY, most Kaminoan Fett-clones still in service are with Vander's 501st Legion and the Death Squadron.

By 0 ABY, most Kaminoan Fett-clones are dead, and the rest are ancient. Adult diapers ancient. Given their absurdly high casulaty rates during the Clone Wars and the rapidity with which they aged, it's highly unlikely that there are still any in Imperial service at all by the time the Battle of Yavin rolls around. (Though, if there's a canon exception, I'll gladly stand corrected.)

Sidenote: Is anyone else disturbed by Star Wars fandom's habit of comparatively referring to cloned humans as "Clones" and non-cloned humans as "Human" as if a cloned human is somehow less human or not a person?

The Kaminoan clones are meat puppets - programmed, altered on a fundamental level. They might pass some people's standards for human, but given the existence of slavery... they're geneered to be slaves.

Most clones were 10 years old during the Clone Wars, but they aged at double the rate. By 0 BBY many would be effectively 60. In the EU, some of the commando deserters and their old Cuy'val Dar sergeants kidnapped a Kaminoan and figured out a way to reverse the rapid aging, but I doubt any clones who remained in Imperial service or simply retired after the Clone Wars had access to it.

It's the depiction of units of Kaminoan Fett-clones being incompetent that gets to me. By 0 ABY, most Kaminoan Fett-clones still in service are with Vander's 501st Legion and the Death Squadron.

By 0 ABY, most Kaminoan Fett-clones are dead, and the rest are ancient. Adult diapers ancient. Given their absurdly high casulaty rates during the Clone Wars and the rapidity with which they aged, it's highly unlikely that there are still any in Imperial service at all by the time the Battle of Yavin rolls around. (Though, if there's a canon exception, I'll gladly stand corrected.)

Sidenote: Is anyone else disturbed by Star Wars fandom's habit of comparatively referring to cloned humans as "Clones" and non-cloned humans as "Human" as if a cloned human is somehow less human or not a person?

It's only about 20 years from the end of ep III to the start of ep IV...

The Kaminoan clones are meat puppets - programmed, altered on a fundamental level. They might pass some people's standards for human, but given the existence of slavery... they're geneered to be slaves.

Nineteen, to be exact. Perhaps I'm overestimating the effects of their rapid aging, but even so, the clones were only around ten standard years old at the start of the Clone Wars. (Let that sink in for a moment.) Assuming that they only aged at a rate of 2:1, a clone who is biologically 20 at the end of Episode II is about 26 by the end of Episode III, and 64 at the start of A New Hope. Unless you're Yoda, that's pretty far past the age of usefulness for a combat soldier. And while according to Karen Traviss, there's a McGuffin out there to allow her Chosen Few to live to a ripe-old-age, something tells me that the Empire decided not to invest heavily in GAR retirement homes.

While I do think the fact that the clones have been heavily altered genetically is an interesting point, it still doesn't make me very comfortable with the concept. Certainly brainwashing and military training don't make a person less human (though I'm sure there are some people out there who will contest that point). Yes, they're referred to in-universe as clones, but never in the context of being something other than human. Clones even have their own distinct and unique presences in the Force. The Spaarti clones are an exception, but it's heavily implied that their "wrongness" in the Force is what leads to (or at the very least, contributes to) their eventual insanity.

Please understand, my intention is not to troll, hijack the thread, or be needlessly obtuse. I just find the situation to be morally ambiguous and an (in-universe) ethical minefield. I'm a bit unsettled by the "not really human" line of thinking, but I also understand that it's a very easy conclusion to come to, and certainly don't hold it against anyone. It's a conversation that I think is worth having, if people are willing, but I'll be the first to take it to another thread if it's not appropriate here.

The "not really human" line can easily come from the Jedi recognizing they are all different inside the Force, but still basically treating them as war-slaves without the choice of personal autonomy. Even conscripts have lives before their conscription; the clones really don't. They don't get real choice in their lives at all, unless they choose to retire after the Clone Wars.

Basically, they are each fully human (if indoctrinated and altered) but human nevertheless. They're also slaves originally ordered by a Jedi Master, and there's no way to lighten that up. Some Jedi even left the Order when told they'd have to command the clones, because they were deeply uncomfortable with the obvious fact that the troops were slaves. Personally I like it, the "pure as the driven snow" Jedi concept never appealed to me. Human Jedi are human too after all!

Something I do when it comes to stormtroopers is that I use cloning of another sort. More specifically brainwashing. I think it is the Stormtrooper academy on Cardia? that does the training. I just work it out that Stormtrooper recruits whether they are the cream of the crop or dissidents have the loyalty programed in. There are enough Expanded Universe stories where people were stormtroopers that left. I use this as in strong willed individuals, they fight and eventually rebel the programming.

Now about the process, one it only works on humans - hence the pro-human attitude of the Empire, the main process is done at the academy, but it is continued by using the stormtrooper uniforms - specifically the helmet. You loot that armour, suddenly you have an unknown setback die when attacking imperials, or trying to worm your way out of that customs inspection.

After the clone wars, I ruled that Kamino was destoryed/devastated and the cloning was lost. Not sure about the actual outcome of the planet, but I find my indoctrination method works really well. Especially with dissidents. Enemies of the Empire that are captured are brainwashed to fight their former comrades. The faceless/nameless uniforms keeps anyone from trying to mount a rescue or knowing who is firing at them and more importantly the empire expends no truly loyal manpower to the cause.

Is there a decent and simple visual timeline out there that the 2 and soon to be 3 games can be put on without being cluttered by too much detail besides the movies?

After the clone wars, I ruled that Kamino was destoryed/devastated and the cloning was lost. Not sure about the actual outcome of the planet, but I find my indoctrination method works really well. Especially with dissidents. Enemies of the Empire that are captured are brainwashed to fight their former comrades. The faceless/nameless uniforms keeps anyone from trying to mount a rescue or knowing who is firing at them and more importantly the empire expends no truly loyal manpower to the cause.

The current canon is that the Empire did give continued Jango-based clone use a go for several years -- although there were a few clones from a few other templates, partially thanks to the aforementioned Spaarti cloning cylinders, the clone stormtroopers were still mainly Jango-based -- but after Kaminoans were discovered to have secretly bred a force of Jango-based clones indoctrinated/loyal to the Kaminoan resistance, and despite the 501st Legion successfully assaulting the city in 12 BBY and annihilating said force:

After the Kamino uprising , the Emperor decided that an army of genetically identical soldiers was too susceptible to corruption. Future troopers would be cloned from a variety of templates. Though the 501st itself remained pure, the rest of the Imperial Army gradually became more and more diverse. We never really got used to the new guys.

If Palpatine made this decision in the same year, then by Rebels we'd only have had more templates and enlistee stormtroopers as "the new norm" for about seven years. (Also, this is apparently somehow still canon.)

Stormtroopers are stormtroopers... they are the canon fodder of the movies to the elite heroes of the rebellion but to the average person they are the top soldiers of the empire.

Wait. What?

Wookiees evolved from banthas?

Is anybody using this morsel anywhere?

Sorry for the detour, I was just following the links.

That's not "true," scientifically speaking. It's Imperial propaganda.

That's not "true," scientifically speaking. It's Imperial propaganda.

Yeah, and I bet you also believe in an all-powerful "Force" that binds all life together.

Besides, when has the Empire ever lied to us before?

Never. the corp. Err.. empire is mother, the empire is father.

I think you can see where they are going with Order 66 in this clip:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XghR4HMAYl0

So O66 is, like, a Manchurian Candidate style implanted trigger to kill Jedi and not an order willingly carried out by the Clones.

I really do think that they are positioning to keep the Clones as Good Guys. It may well turn out that Palpatine used the Clones to liquidate the Jedi and the Stormtroopers to liquidate the Clones.

And I gotta say I suddenly like Clones a heck of a lot more now I know/suspect that the Clones wouldn't serve Palpatine by choice.

Another thing is that they have mentioned that one of the things the Empire is doing on the backwater planet where Rebels starts is recruiting locals to fly TIE Fighters and be Storm Troopers. Which I think again shows that Stormtroopers are gonna be line mooks and not and elite.

So O66 is, like, a Manchurian Candidate style implanted trigger to kill Jedi and not an order willingly carried out by the Clones.

Only if every other Emergency Order is portrayed the same way. I don't think that it is, and I think you're trying to interpret it as such to preserve your particular view of the setting at the expense of the actual in-setting facts established about it.

Also, clones didn't exactly serve the Republic "by choice."

I don't think that it is, and I think you're trying to interpret it as such to preserve your particular view of the setting at the expense of the actual in-setting facts established about it.

Welcome to ErikB 101 (or whatever the UK variation of the phrase is).

Kshatriya's correct, the "Manchurian Candidate style implanted trigger" was not wipe out the Jedi but rather follow orders ... and Order 66 was "snuck in"* as one such order, while the whole Chancellor's Office duel gave the Emperor an alibi (depicted right in Episode III) so that the clones in turn wouldn't ask too many questions in the days, months, and years afterward.

The idea of the clones as unwilling to kill Jedi in the absence of an overriding trigger (specifically to kill Jedi, which is what the canon says doesn't exist) doesn't even fit with the behavior of the clones who are depicted in the movie either... " It will be done, my lord " all over the place.

** Ironically, right after the "how to remove the Chancellor" order.

Like I say though they have said the Empire replaced the clones with non-clone Stormtroopers because they were easier to control than clones (and this apparently comes 'straight from George's notes').

And the dude in the clip is showing clear signs of movie style unwilling mind control.

And Lucas never gave a rats ass what the EU said, and the new regime clearly don't care any more.

And Lucas is a 'the author reserves the right to have a better idea' kind of guy when it comes to canon. This is a guy who had Leia turn out to be Lukes sister even though we saw them kiss in the previous movie.

The original idea probably was that the clones were weak willed and willing to follow any orders given to them, but since then they have fleshed out a lot of clone characters and people like them, so it looks to me like the new official line is going to be that a Jango clone won't just do what you tell them even after you mess with their genes (Yay those independent clones!) and order 66 is mind control and the clones feel very bad about their part in it (oh those poor clones!), so they can keep using clones as good guys.

And assuming this is correct I am all for it. I never warmed to Clones as a result of their future role as the enforcers of the evil galactic empire, but since these new revelations I have been playing Republic Commando and enjoying it a lot more where as before I found it somewhat distasteful, and am generally more open to all things clone.

(and this apparently comes 'straight from George's notes').

Where have I heard that before?

Only if every other Emergency Order is portrayed the same way. I don't think that it is, and I think you're trying to interpret it as such to preserve your particular view of the setting at the expense of the actual in-setting facts established about it.

But it's pretty impressive to watch those mental gymnastics, no?

Let's face it. Captain (or whatever his title is) Rex was right alongside Anakin murdering children in the Jedi Temple. And for the vast majority of the clones, the transition from Republic to Empire was a superficial one. The uniforms changed slightly, and the titles changed, but the job was essentially the same .

Which in and of itself says something incredibly damning about the Galactic Republic during the Clone Wars...

I suspect you guys are gonna be very disappointed with Star Wars for the next few years.

I suspect you guys are gonna be very disappointed with Star Wars for the next few years.

After the original trilogy that ship already sailed.

After the original trilogy that ship already sailed.

Especially when it turned out that fanfiction writers were consistently capturing " the spirit of Star Wars, the original trilogy "* better than official EU writers that weren't Martha Wells (I still stand by what I said about Empire and Rebellion: Razor's Edge ), John Jackson Miller (one word: Kenobi )... or whoever is writing the current Star Wars (Dark Horse) ongoing comic... it's no coincidence that in the case of Wells and the current comic's author they're doing Galactic Civil War-period stories, though I'd also say that they've focused more on Leia than most prior works have, as one of their works' positives.

Disclosure : I wasn't actually a Zahn fan enough to be dishonest and go " oh and don't forget Timothy Zahn ."

And J. J. Abrams being onboard Episode VII already doomed the sequels in my eyes anyway.

TL;DR : READ RAZOR'S EDGE , KENOBI , AND THE DARK HORSE COMIC STAR WARS ALREADY FOR YOUR GALACTIC CIVIL WAR WITH REBEL GOOD GUYS AND IMPERIAL BAD GUYS GOODNESS.

* That is, those who aren't simply essentially building their story on the back of Episode IV... an all-too-common failing of those set in the original trilogy time period, unfortunately, though it is nice to see people who really find a way to warp it instead of obviously riding on Episode IV's back... though subsequent portions being set on Hoth is what really signals " they're grasping at straws creatively ".

In contrast, there's "What-Ifs" like what if the Larses had been already dead when Obi-Wan returned to Tatooine, forcing him to raise Luke directly... and in my view he turned out to be a better father to Luke than prequels-Anakin would have been.

And Lucas is a 'the author reserves the right to have a better idea' kind of guy when it comes to canon. This is a guy who had Leia turn out to be Lukes sister even though we saw them kiss in the previous movie.

Actually, that really isn't all that odd... It's a socially controversial but generally accepted in the psychology and psychiatry field issue called either "Separated Sibling Attraction" or "Genetic Sexual Attraction"... The wikipedia entry is pretty layman-intelligible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_sexual_attraction