Nah, they're epic. It's the rebels who constantly run with their tails between their legs.

And yet, when the Rebels are backed in to a corner and forced to turn and fight it is the Death Stars that don't walk away...

Tarkin was pants-on-head stupid and flush from crushing a Rebel attack of 200 X-Wings at the Battle of Despayre. Who cares about 30 fighters if 200 couldn't stop them?

But of course, plot required the Death Star to be destroyed. If the setting were a real-world simulation AND were Tarkin halfway competent and not in his place due to nepotism, the Death Star would have launched its several-thousand-strong TIE screen or just plain shot Yavin and then Yavin IV, and that would've been the game.

Makes for a **** hero movie tho.

Makes for a **** hero movie tho.

Like I say, don't waste your time cheering for the Empire. They ain't never going to catch a break.

Not in the movies, which have already been filmed. But in a game? Who knows.

But of course, plot required the Death Star to be destroyed. If the setting were a real-world simulation AND were Tarkin halfway competent and not in his place due to nepotism, the Death Star would have launched its several-thousand-strong TIE screen or just plain shot Yavin and then Yavin IV, and that would've been the game.

Incidentally, it is this sort of thing that is why I feel the forces of the Empire need to be startlingly inept. The rebels/PCs are so outnumbered they need all the advantages they can get.

You clearly refuse to see the difference between "some enemies are startlingly inept because they hold their powerful positions due to favoritism as opposed to merit, which works to the Heroes' advantage" with "everyone who is the Enemy needs to be inept to give the Heroes a fighting chance."

The Empire's biggest weakness is that it's a hierarchical echo chamber, not that everyone who might support it magically gets their IQ quartered at birth.

It is a lot easier to explain why the Rebels/PCs consistently win their battles despite being massively outnumbered if Stormtroopers are poorly trained disposable cannon fodder whose idea of advanced tactics is human wave attacks and banzai charges led by officers who are political appointees with no real military ability (as they tend to be in Star Wars media are likely to be in Rebels) than if they are the supersoldiers that Empire fanboys want them to be.

And it helps if the Alliance is a comparatively professional if somewhat more informal organisation.

--

We can see from the battle of Yavin that Imperial doctrine is that when attacked by starfighters large ships and installations should not launch their own fighters but instead rely on their AA guns to destroy their attackers (it is drilled in to recruits that defending fighters will get in the way of the guns). Despite this quickly turning out to be terrible doctrine, it is still what the Imperial academies were teaching when the Empire fell. And the Imperial Military is very big on its men following doctrine rather than showing personal initiative.

Indeed showing personal initiative is a good way to get yourself sent off for reeducation.

--

I guess in the end I just find it much more pleasing if the good guys win because they deserve to, not just because they are the designated heroes and have plot armour.

I guess in the end I just find it much more pleasing if the good guys win because they deserve to, not just because they are the designated heroes and have plot armour.

But that is basically what you are calling for when you want stormtroopers et al to be nothing more than keystone cops.

It is a lot easier to explain why the Rebels/PCs consistently win their battles despite being massively outnumbered if Stormtroopers are poorly trained disposable cannon fodder whose idea of advanced tactics is human wave attacks and banzai charges led by officers who are political appointees with no real military ability (as they tend to be in Star Wars media are likely to be in Rebels)

It is much more rewarding to win against an able opponent than an inept one. i want to watch Star Wars, not The Ringer .

What stormtroopers lack in quality they make up for in quantity. The Emperors armies are vast. An unending tide of white helmets and dead, black eyes.

What stormtroopers lack in quality they make up for in quantity. The Emperors armies are vast. An unending tide of white helmets and dead, black eyes.

Oh good, more zombies. I prefer my stormtroopers a little more robust than that, so I'll keep them as elite troops. Mess up and you can end up dead.

Tarkin was pants-on-head stupid and flush from crushing a Rebel attack of 200 X-Wings at the Battle of Despayre. Who cares about 30 fighters if 200 couldn't stop them?

But of course, plot required the Death Star to be destroyed. If the setting were a real-world simulation AND were Tarkin halfway competent and not in his place due to nepotism, the Death Star would have launched its several-thousand-strong TIE screen or just plain shot Yavin and then Yavin IV, and that would've been the game.

Makes for a **** hero movie tho.

Then again, sometimes " not even halfway competent and in his place due to nepotism " IS all too realistic. Alternately, too prideful (or "at risk of losing face by accepting reality due to earlier hubris") to actually put up a defense is itself sometimes all too realistic too...

lol at Alliance being more professional. what with their established training academies, stringent acceptance requirements, etc., right? cite.

lol at how 1 person commands 1 battle is therefore representative of all Imperial doctrine. cite.

lol at any personal initiative by anyone results in punishment and reeducation. cite. Admiral Ozzel doesn't count, he was just another moron.

super big lols that the notion of "the enemy is a bunch of idiots" ISN'T just a different form of plot armor for the heroes.

Oh good, more zombies. I prefer my stormtroopers a little more robust than that, so I'll keep them as elite troops. Mess up and you can end up dead.

Which as people pointed out was pretty much how they were built in the EotE Beginner's Game by FFG and by multiple accounts -- of them being built to get the players to run instead of fight -- intentionally so!

Speaking of which, I looked through the Week 5 PDF, the "final update"... and there've been literally no mechanical changes to the stormtroopers or in fact any Imperial military NPCs other than changing the Darktrooper to a Rival (from a Nemesis) without any actual " nerfs ".

Which as people pointed out was pretty much how they were built in the EotE Beginner's Game by FFG and by multiple accounts -- of them being built to get the players to run instead of fight -- intentionally so!

I am going to leave the quote because it made me think of this: The worse thing about Stormtroopers is to the untrained eye they all look the same. So if you want to mess with your players you could create stat-blocks for a Stormtrooper Minion Group, Rival and Memisis. Perhaps the players have a visit from the Keystone Stormtrooper or maybe the Stormtrooper is a long lost relation to Bruce Willis, how can the player tell?

After an encounter with Trooper Bruce perhaps the players will run or wish they had as they plan their escape from the detention cells.

Funny thing is, this is almost exactly what the Imperial Sourcebook for the WEG Star Wars D6 suggested -- albeit in the form of " more dice " -- for further upgrading stormtroopers! Heck, it's even current canon that the Emperor's Royal Guards would rotate in and out of the normal stormtrooper ranks, albeit not dispersed but rather as part of the same stormtrooper unit.

As it stands, I'd point to how a stormtrooper sergeant (the Rival) has a good chance of not being visibly told apart from a regular stormtrooper (the Minion) unless your players spotted the former directing the latter...

how can the player tell?

A Knowledge: Warfare check would let a PC size up their opposition and see if the Stormtroopers they are facing are the dross the Empire usually herds in to battle or one of the rarer veteran units who have had time to learn something.

How they stand and move, how well they use the available cover, whether they spray and pray from the hip or fire in short, controlled bursts from a stable shooting stance, how they are dug in and where they have sited their heavy weapons - to a trained eye such differences are obvious.

And Alliance soldiers have been well trained by the clones who survived the Empires purges.

As far as I'm aware, Able is the only established clone trooper who became part of the Alliance. He's dead now...

As far as I'm aware, Able is the only established clone trooper who became part of the Alliance.

Well, where do we think the Clone Troopers the Empire replaced with its non clone Stormtroopers ended up?

--

Incidentally, there is a very good article on the weaknesses of Stormtrooper marksmanship here:-

http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/02/the-weakness-of-taliban-marksmanship/?_r=0

Last week, Galaxy At War opened a conversation about Stormtrooper marksmanship by publishing rough data from several dozen recent firefights between the forces of the Empire and three Alliance repulsorlift companies in and near the stilt cities of the Tanth peninsula, the location of the recent offensive in the Volanth system. The data showed that while the Stormtroopers can be canny and brave in combat their blaster fire is often remarkably ineffective.

We plan more posts about the nature of the fighting in the Vrik sector, and how this influences the experience of the war. Today this blog discusses visible factors that, individually and together, predict poor shooting results when the Empire's gunmen get behind their blasters.

It’s worth noting that many survivors of multiple small-arms engagements throughout the galactic civil war the have had experiences similar to those described last week. After emerging unscathed from ambushes, including ambushes within ranges at which the Empire's E-11 carbines should have been effective, they wonder: how did so much Stormtrooper fire miss?

Many factors are at play. Some of you jumped ahead and submitted comments that would fit neatly on the list; thank you for the insights. Our list includes these: limited Stormtrooper knowledge of marksmanship fundamentals, a frequent reliance on automatic fire from blaster carbines, the poor condition of many of those carbines, old and mismatched power packs that are also in poor condition, widespread eye problems and uncorrected vision, and fundamental weaknesses in Imperial doctrine.

Few sounds are as distinctive as those made by E-11 bolts passing high overhead. The previous sentence is written that way – bolts and overhead – for a reason, because this is a common way that incoming E-11 fire is heard on battlefields from Hoth to Ryloth: in bursts, and high. Over and over again in ambushes and firefights, the Empires’s gunmen fire their E-11 carbines on automatic mode. The E-11 series already suffers from inherent range and accuracy limitations related to its medium-power bolt intensity, its relatively short barrel, the poor quality of its optical sight, and the heavy mass and deliberately loose fit of the integrated bolt focusing element and blaster gas injector traveling within the receiver.

For many shooters, the limitations resulting from these design characteristics are manageable at shorter ranges and with disciplined shooting. In certain environments and conditions, including in dense vegetation where typical skirmish distances shrink, the limitations are easily overcome. Add distance between a shooter and a target, and fire an E-11 on automatic, and the carbine’s weaknesses can emerge starkly. There are reasons for this. One is perceptible to people who are shot at but not struck. When fired on automatic, the weapon’s muzzle rises. Bolts start to climb. At very short ranges, a bolt from a climbing muzzle might still hit a being. At longer ranges, which are common on arid Geonosis and many other planets, the chances of a hit decline sharply. Bolts travel over heads.

And yet Imperial doctrine continues to call for automatic fire to be used for most situations. A former Clone Trooper lieutenant colonel I served with in the the defense of Mon Calamari had been previously assigned to Tatooine along side the then recently formed Stormtrooper legions before his defection to the Alliance. His accounts of COMPNOR militia fighters who were solely drilled on the use of high volume automatic fire would seem to describe many Stormtroopers in the field across the galaxy today.

The morgue, as they gave their lives in the name of galactic stability, and as age caught up with them. The less lucky ones ended up in the Phase Zero Dark Trooper project.

Players will hate you for providing them with a weak, papermesh, repetitive adversary in the form of Stormtroopers who can't shoot, can't think, and practically blow themselves up with idiotic antics. It makes encounters BORING, if not only because the threat is minimal, but also because the only way you can really vamp it up is to add more Stormtroopers.

Make it realistic - y'know, that thing that Mr ErikB can't seem to comprehend - and have them all be individuals. If the heroes never know whether they're going to be facing stock troops (who would need to be at least combat competent to be allowed to serve in the Empire's forces), or if they'll be facing a Stormtrooper unit with many combat honours, then it'll make them take every encounter seriously.

And what will have your players feeling more elated? Knowing that they've fought and defeated competent, dangerous and numerous foes, or that they managed to mow down toadies that had no hope in hell of ever harming them? This isn't Duke Nukem, nor is it GTA with God-Mode switched on: the reason people love the Rebels and the film heroes is because they fought a foe that was superior in resources, training and number and won anyways .

On a serious note, Erik, I would have thought that YOU of all people would want the Empire to be portrayed as combat bad-arses, because if they are then it only makes the Rebel Alliance come across as a stronger, more awesome organisation by comparison. No-one here can change the fact that the Rebels WON in established canon - but who gives a **** that they did if their opponent was a dribbling group of idiots who habitually tried to mow down foes with the safeties still on?

On a serious note, Erik, I would have thought that YOU of all people would want the Empire to be portrayed as combat bad-arses, because if they are then it only makes the Rebel Alliance come across as a stronger, more awesome organisation by comparison.

Nah. It makes it look like the Rebels won through luck and GM/Lucas fiat rather than because they deserved it.

--

So what do people think of the notion that the reasons Stormtroopers can't hit anything include:-

-The Empire's draconian gun control laws mean most of their recruits won't have touched let alone fired a blaster before being conscripted.

-They use shoddily constructed, poorly maintained blaster carbines, and low quality power packs whose fluctuating energy supply negatively impacts the carbines ability to maintain its zero and grouping.

-The widespread malnutrition caused by the Empire's disastrous economic policies means many of the Empires soldiers have poor eyesight, which goes uncorrected due to the darwinian nature of Imperial healthcare.

-Imperial training is based on ineffective and outdated doctrine, and the very nature of the Imperial system prevents this from being rectified.

No, your desire to have the Stormtroopers be crappy all-around opposition is the GM fiat. It's him saying "you're too **** yourselves to face opponents who can actually do anything, so here's some foes that my two-year old could bully."

Smart thinking and good RP/character action will mean they win a BALANCED encounter - which means you putting them up against enemies that can give them a run for their money. The players, the Rebellion, and their heroes all look crap if you throw them against weak foes; and if that's what you do for your games, then I pity your players.

Or do you just play with yourself? Holding three way convos, with two of the voices in your head telling you what the PCs will do, whilst the third directs the extremely handi-capped action?

Smart thinking and good RP/character action will mean they win a BALANCED encounter - which means you putting them up against enemies that can give them a run for their money.

Sure. Two balanced 1000 point armies might be

100 Stormtroopers @10pts each

vs.

50 Rebels @20pts each.

All things being equal, both sides have the same chance of winning. And most Rebels can expect to be more outnumbered than that.

Stormtroopers don't need to be terrible exactly. They just need to be worse than the Rebels. Or the Rebels don't need to be great, they just need to be better than the Stormtroopers. Same thing.

Two men are walking through a forest. Suddenly, they see a tiger in the distance, running towards them. They turn and start running away. But then one of them stops, takes some running shoes from his bag, and starts putting the on.

“What are you doing?” says the other man. “Do you think you will run fast than the tiger with those?”

“I don’t have to run faster than the tiger,” he says. “I just have to run faster than you.”

I can't believe I'm getting involved, but unfortunately I can't help myself, as Erik is currently the greatest source of entertainment on these boards...

Gun control doesn't affect their ability to handle weapons. Many countries have strict gun control, which doesn't impair the effectiveness of their military. I think you've mentioned that you yourself are British?

Their weapons are manufactured by Blastech and SoroSuub, both top of their field.

Stormtrooper helmets have systems to help with visibility and target detection. That said, there are countless examples of people wearing them stating that they can't see a **** thing, so they are perhaps more of a hinderance than help.

Stormtrooper training is presumably adapted from the training of the clone troopers. Their combat doctrine seemed to often consist of standing on a plain and blasting at the enemy, although that shortcoming could be attributed to the fact that those at the top of the command chain weren't trained soldiers, who had command foisted upon them.

Points? What the hell are you on about? This isn't friggin' Warhammer: a group of heroes that are outnumbered can make up for that with superior positioning (high ground) or better cover, planning ahead or knowing the lay of the land more intimately. There's plenty of reasons why heroes can take down the Empire's forces if they use their heads - and that's what the heroes of the movies did .

There is a reason that the Clone Wars didn't interest me hugely: Baktoids, and droid soldiers in general, were boring . They had no personality, little skill, and were just carbon copies of one another; this is not what I want for the bad guys in my campaign - which, if I pick up AoR (I will), will inevitably mean the Empire.

Gun control doesn't affect their ability to handle weapons. Many countries have strict gun control, which doesn't impair the effectiveness of their military. I think you've mentioned that you yourself are British?

You don't have to believe it. You just have to be able to sell it to the audience.