Sorry Erikb I like playing as rebels ( would like to play imperial as changed) but were the imperial do have more resources, scientist and money. So I don't see it as a problem that they would have this fighter. And as a rebels I would like to face one in a x-wing and try and take it down for the challenge But a imperial I would not want to fly one as it would make the game to easy. I like to play a game that challenge me and like emperor Norton it help me feel badass it I did shot in down.

But as imperial I would not want to fly one as it would make the game to easy.

You might not but I don't think you could pry Chortles out of his with a crowbar.

I'm just tossing a bit into the piranha tank, but should part of the equation be squadrons? Minus Luke showboating occasionally, most fighters are fighter squadrons. X-Wings are usually 6+ member squadrons, and have some very good, talented pilots, trained to fight in tandem. The TIE Defender is rather superior; that was the whole point of its manufacture, but they only ever fly in 4-member squadrons, because even the Emperor couldn't keep signing the checks for more fighters (he hated them, and that's part of why the TIE fighter is crap; he wanted the weakest, most mass-producable thing he could get, so he had more money for the Star Destroyers nothing ever conventionally beats.) TIE ace pilots are rare, based on their conventional flying vehicles, and so the fewer TIE Defenders also have fewer high skilled pilots. They also have less coordination, being in a group that doesn't favor fighters much, and less to fight for (the Rebels fight for life and freedom, the TIE pilots because they were ordered to). They were also used to winning by attrition. TIE Interceptors make X-Wings look like pong in speed and maneuverability. While a good hit, or even a convenient swear were often enough to beer can a TIE fighter, in the bulk of the material, they were harder to hit. Mon Cal ships had blisters with shrapnel in them mounted, just to deal with pesky TIE squadrons.

I personally believe that the TIE Defender should remain better than the X-Wing, because it is, but the X-Wing, like much the Rebels did, took what it had in tandem, and made the less quality stuff win out. I have well-trained, well-armed, well-geared Storm Troopers, and a lot of them, and a fleet above them. You have 50 Humans and an army of teddy bears. Somehow, and it wasn't just the shite armor of Storm Troopers (which is rather good everywhere else), I lost to Indiana Jones and a horde of Teddy Ruxpins. A Star Destroyer pwns a Mon Cal cruiser any day, and the Empire has MANY more of them than the Mon Calamari were able to convert, but the Rebel fleet could still hold out. The Imperial fighters of this note were superior (the Empire's equipment is ALWAYS superior), but the people manning it weren't. The X-Wing had field-testing, better pilots, a droid, and numbers, of all things, to make it win out against the superior fighter; I would see that should happen here, too.

Maybe it won't, I don't know. In many games, the PCs get an advantage for being PCs in a game; they are the ones who will reshape destiny, and get extras to show it off. If a group of player-dogfighters don't win against a smaller group of superior fighters, flown by inferior pilots, it might be something more than the power of that fighter's stats.

"We've got them outnumbered but they are way better at this than us!" said no good guy in an action movie ever.

"We've got them outnumbered but they are way better at this than us!" said no good guy in an action movie ever.

You seem to be under the impression that the stock standard rebel pilots are the "good guys". They're not. The PCs are the "good guys", the Imperial aces (in whatever ships) are the "bad guys", and everyone else is just window dressing. This is an incredibly common trope - the main forces are more or less evenly matched (numbers vs quality, etc), so the deciding factor is the elites on both sides. It's entirely reasonable to have the battle go something like this: TIEs launch, and the smaller, but higher quality rebels hold them off/slowly gain ground. Then the TIE/d's launch, and even though up until that point the Rebels had the advantage, the Defenders quickly turn the tide back, necessitating the intervention of the PCs to preserve as many of their allies as possible, and retake the advantage. Far from being the GM grudge stick that you imagine, a "proper" TIE/d represents an enemy that the ordinary Rebels can't face, but the PCs can, instantly giving them a feeling of being heroes. The trick is making them superior enough so that the basic X-wings can't reliably beat them, but weak enough so that the PCs, with the advantage(s) of customized gear and better skills, can.

I am pretty happy if a properly customised X-Wing (or indeed a radically souped up ace custom hot rod X-Wing) is an equal match for a TIE Defender.

People are using the TIE Defender in their games? Ugh.

Thats fine and all but trying to pretend having uber stormtroopers and OP enemy superfighters will make playing rebels more fun when really you want to play AS the uber stormtroopers and enemy aces risks a whole bunch of people who didn't get the memo wasting their me time turning up to a game where they play space taliban getting curb stomped by space USMC.

A few points.

a) Not once have I said I want to play the Imperials; your little troll mind decided to link "person who is open to the idea of not all Imperials being 100% bad guys " with "guy who wants to play them all of the time";

b) Comparing the Taliban to either Star Wars branches shows true ignorance of the group in general. Don't crap on the memories of my brothers-in-arms who have died fighting against the real Taliban by making such an idiotic comparison. Or, if you are going to, at least have the guts to say it within earshot of a squaddie.

Anyways, I'm done feeding the troll. I figured you might not be as bad a bloke as everyone paints you out to be, but that was the optimist in me speaking. He's been enlightened.

Well, one of the reasons I want to keep things as black and white as possible is because I really don't want people thinking that the setting where the enormously powerful high tech military is fighting against the rag tag insurgency and their hokey religion might in any way at all be a commentary on the war on terror.

I don't want that, and it looks like you don't either.

Hence the Empire is not a legitimate, functional and largely well meaning state that occasionally does things that might in the fullness of time turn out to have been a bad idea or possibly not, upon full consideration and with the benefit of hindsight, 'the right thing', but Evil lord Saurons dark domain of evil whose idea of fun is kicking puppies and stealing candy from babies.

Stormtroopers are not in any way at all related to the US military, and so using US Marines or Airborne as an example of what they are like is totally wrong. Think Orcs, Iraqi Republican Guard, Nazi SS, bad guys . Guys you don't want to be.

And rebels are most definitely not terrorists. They are entirely legitimate and totally justified opposers of a crazy evil wizard who lives only to commit evil. They operate fighter squadrons, build hot rods, like to stick mall ninja accessories on their black rifles, and comparisons to the US military are entirely justified here.

And a TIE defender is most definitely not an F-22.

People are using the TIE Defender in their games? Ugh.

Agree. Not an issue for me since TIE Defender idiocy won't exist in my game.

People are using the TIE Defender in their games? Ugh.

If they're incredibly rare - Bigfoot rare - I wouldnt mind using them. They're expensive, extremely limited in number and only deployed when the situation demands it and not at "we need some cool fighters" whim. When they show up, the players go "Oh crap, it just got real!"

Yeah, depending on when your game takes place, you shouldn't see them at all. I don't remember seeing them at Endor, but stuff says they were there. I don't think they were anywhere BEFORE that, as I remember (endor was the final test phase, I think), and they didn't really come into big use in EU until the YV War, in which case they still got their butts kicked around by coralskippers, and that's long enough from Endor that one Solo kid is a dead hero, and the other two are old enough to fly ships, have personal lives with other people, and start to walk to the line of the dark side themselves. I won't stop liking the Defender, because it is a cool ship to me, but much of the purported time frame of this setting, Age of REBELLION, there were no TIE Defenders. Thrawn liked them, since he actually values fighters, and their pilots (see Scimitar Assault Bomber), but the Emperor hated all starfighters, and so he didn't want to pay for R&D on the Defenders. He might've kicked Zaarin in the tail, and had him working, but it was begrudging, when invincible Star Destroyers, and the Death Star were what was going to win the war. If he's still alive in your game, it's probably too early to have these, love them or hate them.

I could see a squadron of X-Wing heroes (the PCs or Rogue Squadron, if they are separate, and you didn't want to piss on the fluff) doing well enough with their TIE-superior X-Wings, and eventually drawing the attention of the Dark Ace, and his crack squadron of TIE Defenders (all four of them), just to give the players something to pause over (legitimate challenge is important), but much like a culmination battle against Darth Vader, it should be at an end, with some appropriate build-up. Tenebrous Squadron could've been playing like characters, using their clout and connections to locate the heroes, and their ships have hyperdrives, so they wouldn't have to give themselves away with the giant pie slice (this is part of why I named them Tenebrous Squadron in Saga; they are comparatively stealthy and sneaky, more like real people/characters than the normal TIE pilot drone.) The players in their X-Wings might get wind of the search, and have to modify their heroic activities with not wanting to draw Tenebrous Squadron to them, or seek to test themselves against this foe, and actively search for them, too.

In summation, though, they wouldn't bee seen often, hopefully only at the climax (of the Rebellion ). In that case, I see them as good, but "regular" TIES are the flavor of the day most of the time; that's what the fluff did. Besides, the Interceptors are still numerous, fast, and agile, and should be an okay challenge used properly. A Star Destroyer using supporting fire should help, too. Something like Adversary dice, where they get increased difficulty to pilot tests, and such, as they dodge the insta-kill hits of the SD; I don't know if they worked something like that into AoR, but it seems a nice way to "tone up" the ability of the Interceptor squadron(s). The SD doesn't actually shoot at the X-Wings, but their dodging makes it so that the Interceptors can get at them more easily; hard to dodge BOTH, and the Star Destroyer isn't going to scorch a stabilizer if you get hit.

I could see a squadron of X-Wing heroes (the PCs or Rogue Squadron, if they are separate, and you didn't want to piss on the fluff) doing well enough with their TIE-superior X-Wings, and eventually drawing the attention of the Dark Ace, and his crack squadron of TIE Defenders

Don't you think at that point it would be cool if the PCs were to go and seek out a hot rod rebel fighter equivalent so they can even the odds?

Perhaps more importantly don't you think the players would think it was cool if they could upgrade their ships to meet the challenge on equal terms?

(By and large, if a player in a Star Wars game ever finds themselves thinking 'why am I stuck flying this sh1tty X-Wing?' YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG!!!!!11111!!!!! )

Equal terms is nice, but I find that one of the things some players find fun is that, under normal circumstances, they shouldn't have won, yet they did, and that makes them special.

Only War is another FFG game on this site, based on the Imperial Guard of Warhammer 40K. They don't get the best stuff, they almost CAN'T, and they fight stuff a lot more BA than them. That's the IG; they are mortal, and with the easiest to make equipment, and they die by the droves. Players will feel better because THEY survive, where maybe they shouldn't have, and most others didn't. If they were Space Marines, carrying bolt guns, wearing power armor, and on equal number to the Orks, sure they win, and with no challenge, but that isn't how it works. Space Marines are rare, and their gear is specialized, and hard to make. They are always outnumbered, and their skill, fearlessness, modifications, etc. make them win, where lesser men wouldn't.

I'll still say the Rebels shouldn't have an equivalent to the Defender, if indeed it is so amazing; they should be victorious by virtue of their skill. Imp pilots will never be as good, due to death rates, so they SHOULD have something better, to counter the Rebel's better someones. If they need TIE Defenders, have the team find a site where they are built, and steal them; be rebels. In WEG d6, I ran a mission where the players have to outrun the Empire, get aboard a station, and recover the B-Wing prototypes, which the Empire has discovered, and is coming to get. We managed to make it, barely. If your team could do that, too, with TIE Defenders, they'd have what you want. Otherwise, they aren't much of a ragtag rebellion if they have easy access to the best fighters around. The Empire has limitless cash, the best designers, and little moral compass, so they get whatever, but the Rebels would need a way to get them, and Incom used up their juju on the X-Wings. No money to build them, and no one willing to openly make them means access to awesome is suspect.

I'm sorry you don't like what's there, but if you're the GM, I guess you can slap together the Super-wing, and use it. I prefer that the Rebels have to work for their victories, and not with the best stuff at their fingertips. Do your players have more money than the King? Do you give them the best magical weapons? Mine don't, and they have to FACE those, and persevere because of who they are, not what they are carrying. This is only my opinion, of course.

Equal terms is nice, but I find that one of the things some players find fun is that, under normal circumstances, they shouldn't have won, yet they did, and that makes them special.

Genuinely equal terms means the PCs will lose half the time. Generally, when the PCs face 'overwhelming odds' they always win because the GM has to let them because there is no **** way they can win if the game isn't rigged.

You will probably find players are less keen on 'overwhelming odds' than you think. You didn't earn it if the GM had to let you win because his bad guys were too hard.

Otherwise, they aren't much of a ragtag rebellion if they have easy access to the best fighters around.

They do have the best fighters around. Totally Games just inserted a Mary Sue that hasn't been fully nerfed yet.

the best designers

Nah. The best designers are all Jewish physicists who fled to America to escape Nazi persecution and built the atom bomb non humans who fled the empire and build kickass starfighters for the Alliance.

And are we seriously saying the Millenium Falcon isn't the badest ship around? And Han modified that himself. A freighter turned in to a hod rod so hot Lando chose to fly it to lead the fighter attack on the second death star!

There are rules for modifying ships, yes? Why don't you just give your players ample opportunity to make their ships amazing? If they're getting hit hard by a superior craft (Defender), then it makes sense for them to go away and make their own gear better, so as to combat the evolving threat.

They'd appreciate the fact that their hard work earned them the win moreso than if you just handed them a "bigger, better ship" just because you want to hand-hold them through space encounters.

I think having a TIE defender be suspiciously close in performance to an X-Wing modded as much as it can be by the rules (The TIE defender being a super prototype effectively is modified as far as it will go already, so it can't get any better) would be a fine solution.

And I have suggested running adventures around building their hot rods...

Then what is the issue, honestly? If FFG don't provide a Defender equivalent, just make it so that your group can modify their own ships to such a degree that they're on even ground. You, as GM, then don't have to pull punches; the player feel suitably chuffed when they layeth the smackdown on the Imperials, and things are shiny.

People are using the TIE Defender in their games? Ugh.

Agree. Not an issue for me since TIE Defender idiocy won't exist in my game.

Also agree. It's a munchkin ship that really doesn't have any place outside of the video game it showed up in.

Also agree. It's a munchkin ship that really doesn't have any place outside of the video game it showed up in.

Just remove two of the laser cannons (only Linked 1), drop Cost/Rarity by a lot, and you've got a shielded Imperial assault fighter that appeared well before the TIE Defender and with no "canon" arguments over it being munchkin* (because it wasn't)... the Alpha -class Xg-1 Star Wing assault gunboat.

Credit to JP_JP for suggesting that the "TIE Defender" in the AoR beta be replaced with the Assault Gunboat.

* Or rather, its place in Star Wars doesn't have "munchkin" nearly as central to its concept as the TIE Defender (or Starkiller, haha).

Genuinely equal terms means the PCs will lose half the time. Generally, when the PCs face 'overwhelming odds' they always win because the GM has to let them because there is no **** way they can win if the game isn't rigged .

You will probably find players are less keen on 'overwhelming odds' than you think. You didn't earn it if the GM had to let you win because his bad guys were too hard.

No they don't. It's usually blood, sweat and tears that make the day. Me and my friends have been playing since D&D 1st edition pen&paper rpg and everyone off us has being GM. Never have we being given or asked handicap.

Off topic played D&D where GM was keeping tally how many times we died and how many times we needed to make new characters, not being able to use resurrection spells. Every play session some one died, we didn't whine or rage against it, ok maybe little. Most of the time we just shrugged our shoulders and made new character. Off course corpse looting was constant

I for one use every dirty trick and sucker punch I can conjure in my mind. I don't use kid gloves. And my group knows this so they don't hold back either.

Mmmh, a rough-houser I see... you work hard, you play hard ...

But seriously, I'm perfectly good with just plain omitting the TIE Defender for any group that isn't going to similarly "play hard", especially when (as noted above) the stat block is already way more "canonically similar" to the Assault Gunboat with only one "combat stat" tweak required (dropping Linked 3 to Linked 1 on the laser cannons), and the lore has assault gunboats being more common anyway , so there's no need to hold back on their presence.

P.S. Food for thought: a Nemesis can/already will be more powerful than an individual PC simply because they're not beholden to the same rules, i.e. access (like Rivals) to Adversary. What'll put the PCs over the top is their numbers (in how easily they mow down Minions, so those won't help the Nemesis much) and their tactics, as in what the players do...

Ignoring all the in game and in universe issues of introducing a new super fighter, I suspect that FFGs contract with lucasfilm probably forbids going this far off the reservation...

True, in terms of the EU I always felt the New Republic really failed to fire the imagination with new ship designs period - and what stand-out ideas they did have were often couched in terms of how buggy/problematic they were. I fault it as a blind spot in the authors who focused more on other elements (not saying those other elements aren't important or even more important, but that they drifted away from the WWII adventure serials Lucas drew inspiration from and that were an important bit to the movies). By the time we get to Cade and the Legacy era we get the Twin-Tail (not a bad look, but really should be the assault bomber of its era) and the star-nosed mole the Crossfire (which really has to take the ugly prize - most TIE Uglies being far nicer to look at), while the EU TIEs got sillier and sillier with more wings, more random stuff... they culminated in the Predator which actually works rather well as a minimalist all-offense interceptor design (I don't think we see a bomber/superiority TIE in the Legacy-verse).

Jinking back on topic for a second before veering into another tangent, it's my one hope that the new films will finally overwrite that bland period and give us a "good guy" fighter that looks interesting on the big screen and it reasonably effective (without breaking suspension of disbelief).

I was a little upset that the ARC-170s, Nimbus V-wings and Eta interceptors are brought forward into the OT era more. Sure they would be outdated and old, but those were good looking designs (often far more interesting to look at than the X-Wings, A-Wings and TIEs that were supposed to derive from them, in my opinion).

Mind you, in-universe you can take the view that function > form in all of their designs... but I thought that a lot of both the prequels and the EU focused way, way too much on trying to tie the trilogies or "their EU content" together aesthetically instead of thematically.