The K-wing is... huh. The E-wing at least is actually pretty "understandable" aesthetically as an intended X-wing replacement, whereas I look at the K-wing and am left wondering what's supposed to be going on with it.

It didn't/doesn't help that the K-wing necessitates a separate bombardier on top of two gunners, I guess because the idea was supposed to be to pair the "classic" dorsal turret (now twin laser cannons) with a ventral 'quad' turret... the main thing going for it is payload (de facto any combination of Limited Ammo weapons whose totals add up to 18) but it has no hyperdrive... which really disqualifies it from replacing any of the prior -wing series.

I am clearly jealous that the Rebels never got their late game uberfighter to match the TIE Defender. This needs fixing.

Oh god, please no. It was fun in TIE Fighter, but we need that overpowered macguffin in real star wars as much as we need that dude from the Force Unleashed. They badly need to dial the stats back on that ship if they bring it into the game.

One of my player's character became Galen's hidden apprentice... at the end of the campaign.

TFU creates some interesting bits - Galen is, in a way,the best prototype for an emperor's hand in training. Trained 1-on-1 for a limited time, then turned loose to succeed or die. Perfectly sith...

It's a long way off, like Legacy away, but the Alliance eventually gets the X23 Twintail, possibly the most BA fighter in Star Wars. It's everything about the X-Wing, but better, with an integrated astromech, better weapons, and armor comparable to a transport, without significant loss of speed/maneuverability. It and the Predator starfighter (the Legacy TIE) are a good part of the cool ships Cade and Co get to see and deal with in Legacy.

As for here, the X-Wing, overall, was the best fighter, with the TIE Defender (my favorite fighter) being a "make a TIE X-Wing, or we'll kill you?" ploy, and coming in at double the price, give or take. This was also the time when the Empire wasn't literally made of money, so they couldn't mass-produce them. They were very nice during the YV War, though.

Or, you could look at the rules in AoR and realize that they pretty well nerfed it. It is just a pretty standard assault fighter now.

Mmmm.

The Rebel fighters all have an open customisation hardpoint, which I feel the objectively correct use for is to upgrade then engines because MOAR POWAR!

So since no rebel worth their salt will fly a stock whip, a proper X-Wing hot rod vs. a TIE Defender looks like

X-Wing:- Silhouette 3 Speed 6 Handling +1 Defence 1/1 Armour 3 Hull Trauma 10 System Strain 9 (4 linked laser cannons)

TIE Defender:- Silhouette 3 Speed 4 Handling +2 Defence 1/1 Armour 3 Hull Trauma 10 System Strain 10 (4 linked laser cannons)

From a purely X-Wing fanboy with a tenuous grasp of the rules point of view, the X-Wing appears to have more numbers. This is good. Put that mary-sue fighter back in its place!

It's a long way off, like Legacy away, but the Alliance eventually gets the X23 Twintail, possibly the most BA fighter in Star Wars.

Looks like ass.

If ever a ship needed a reimagining...

Plus, there is no greater shame for a fighter than to arrive 'too late to see combat'. Anything not fighting pre Endor doesn't count. Especially since everything that happens after that is in flux until we see what they do with ep VII.

Or, you could look at the rules in AoR and realize that they pretty well nerfed it. It is just a pretty standard assault fighter now.

Mmmm.

The Rebel fighters all have an open customisation hardpoint, which I feel the objectively correct use for is to upgrade then engines because MOAR POWAR!

Well, you can't use it for more armor - because that takes 2HP.

He was, of course, entirely correct in my own subjective opinion that is by no means an objective fact.

Since you sometimes forget the bolded part, thought I might do it for you.

The X-wing has another advantage over the TIE Defender - the astromech droid. Having another set of actions and maneuvers available to repair strain and angle deflector shields (possibly even plot a course) can be really useful. If nothing else, it provides another initiative slot and thus increases the tactical options available to the side with the X-wing.

Looks like ass.

If ever a ship needed a reimagining...

Plus, there is no greater shame for a fighter than to arrive 'too late to see combat'. Anything not fighting pre Endor doesn't count. Especially since everything that happens after that is in flux until we see what they do with ep VII.

Eh, PLENTY of the ships in Star Wars LOOK like ass; i won't list a bunch, but i think we all know that they are there. As for the flux, I'd say that, until the day the next movie hits, or material starts to leak out. we can pretend that it isn't coming along, yet. It;s a lot of material, and considering how much of it MIGHT be better than the prequels I have to accept as canon, I will personally hold off on dissolving what i know, in favor of how Lucas and Disney might rehash things, until I see how much they ruin...er, sorry, I suppose it is theirs to ruin, so I'll go with "change". And who knows, it might be awesome.

From a mechanical perspective, you said you wanted a better X-Wing. There isn't one. Not until they re-mod them for the YV War, and then the X-83, which mechanics-wise, almost swallows the X-Wing. The humble X-Wing is, overall, pretty good, anyway. Decent weapons, torpedoes, okay armor, shields, hyperdrive, and the astrodroid. In a lot of ways, the TIE Defender WAS the "catch up to the X-Wing", so if it is a little better, let the Empire have it; they cost a ton, have to fly in smaller squadrons, and still aren't quite so good, since Imperial pilots are rarely Wedge Antilles.

The Rebel answer to the Tie Defender is for the worthless overpowered piece of crap to be expunged from Star Wars canon completely.

Only if the Mandalorians are expunged with it! Actually, take the whole of KOTOR/TOR (aka "blame them for "ErikB and Jedi") with them and we're talkin'... and throw in everything The Force Unleashed with all of the above and you've got yourself a deal.

P.S. ErikB trying to throw shade at me, still funny considering how this thread got started and his self-admitted jealousies.

Deal. Tho I do have to say that at least there was a Mandalorian in at least one of the movies.

Now that you have reminded me tho, I do think any mention of the rebellion starting on the Death Star at the Emperors bidding would make my rethink wether I actually want to but AoR. I think the term 'Vader's Secret Apprentice' being used would get the book back on the shelf.

I almost think that Star Wars needs a canon pruning to get rid of some of the more silly side effects of the EU. Like all the things that happened to get the original Death Star plans to Yavin. You almost need a scorecard and GPS to keep track of all the places and people that set of data went through.

More like "just a man, all too easily slain by (a) Jedi..."

An interesting note is that Vader actually had a history of training Dark Jedi dating as far back as the Marvel Star Wars comics, even if Lumiya is by far the most famous and influential thereof. This was all out-of-universe-predating the Rule of Two which forced retcons to make them fit in, whereas "Vader's Secret Apprentice" was publicly revealed only after the Rule of Two had been firmly established in lore and fandom, and that is why Galen Marek was promoted as such, with the prior trainees "retconned" as having not exactly been Sith apprentices and thus not violating the Rule of Two. (For example, Lumiya learning Sith ways but presented to Palpatine in the same year as Endor to be an Emperor's Hand instead, allowing Vader to continue training her with Palpatine's sanction.)

You don't think that they've been doing canon pruning over the years? That's what retcons are! The fundamental issue comes down to the conceit of somehow treating anything outside of the movies as being somehow a single continuous timeline, and bashing in "dissonant" elements until they somehow fit, even when it's "Jacen Solo is alternately written by Karen Traviss, Troy Denning and Aaron Allston"...

... craziness like this is why I prefer fanfic! To them EU canon is merely a launching point (of divergence) and fanfics tend to be far more self-contained as simply one vision of the Star Wars universe that isn't necessarily tied to another... which can make for a better story since the authors don't have to deal with Lucasfilm Licensing when it comes to what's canon in their story, or with inconsistencies with other authors' work (i.e. KOTOR/TOR Jedi vs. Clone Wars vs. ROTJ vs. early post-ROTJ EU, i.e. early EU authors and WEG) as to "power levels"... free to have their own explanations for the reasons why some things played out the way that they did...

Myself I was hoping for the tie defender stats to be better and use the ship as nemesis. But never having more then one in the game. me and my friends are all think about making them abit higher for are games and we believe the stats in the book just do not fit what if should be. And was not the e-wing the ship the rebels built to combat the tie defender? Sorry my Star Wars lore not as great as it once was

I do agree that the stats for the TIE Defender should be better. There isn't a need for a rebel equivalent. The Empire mad the defender because they didn't have pilots that could out fly the rebels (barring a few imperial aces). Also, the ship had a very limited run, and is ideal for a fighter based campaign to be the 'end boss' as it were.

I would increase it's speed to 6. Possibly increase it's handling by 1. It was supposed to be a very maneuverable and fast fighter.

There isn't a need for a rebel equivalent.

I don't think Rebel players would think the same.

There isn't a need for a rebel equivalent.

I don't think Rebel players would think the same.

Unless FFG is given license to disregard years of expanded universe canon there will NOT be an equivelent fighter. So take the fact that you have a balanced fighter that due to the astromech socket you can get two sets of actions, and the general quality/superiority of rebel (and therefore as the game is) pilots

Myself I was hoping for the tie defender stats to be better and use the ship as nemesis. But never having more then one in the game. me and my friends are all think about making them abit higher for are games and we believe the stats in the book just do not fit what if should be. And was not the e-wing the ship the rebels built to combat the tie defender? Sorry my Star Wars lore not as great as it once was

We're actually thinking on a common wavelength here, and it's what ErikB didn't accept last time I talked about TIE Defenders (when he pointed out that these would be "SHOOTING AT THE PCS!")... that if a TIE/LN is "the random mooks", and the TIE Interceptor is supposed to be the "upgraded mooks" (in other systems yes, in this system though not really), then the TIE Defender according to EU canon (no matter how much korjik and I may dislike-enough-to-disregard so, so much of EU canon... and no small part of the movie canon in my case, such as the entire prequel trilogy!) would essentially be a "final boss" starship, which correlates with That Blasted Samophlange's idea.

T'is like complaining that "Rebel players" somehow need "a Rebel equivalent of Darth Vader"... oh wait. (Sound familiar, That Blasted Samophlange?)

Would like the designers to weigh in as to why they chose to diverge here... although from how we have seen from such things as "the Luxury 3000/Starwind-class are both 50 meters yet differing Silhouettes", or ship lengths not necessarily being proportionate to which Silhouette they fall under, "consistency" isn't exactly a rule here in FFG SWRPG...

P.S. No, the E-wing was wholy a post-Endor project meant not to be the TIE Defender counter but rather be the X-wing successor, though its initial teething problems with the laser cannons pretty much doomed that.

Well obviously empire fanboys like the idea of an OP mary sue imperial fighter.

However, assuming that isn't on offer, which compromise would said empire fanboys prefer:-

1: That the sue be excised from canon

2: That the sue be nerfed in to line with the canon Rebel fighters

3: That a rebel sue be invented to provide a worthy opponent

Meh, keep the Imperial fighter OP'd. Imperial domination, yo!

There isn't a need for a rebel equivalent.

I don't think Rebel players would think the same.

Frankly, it doesn't matter what you (or anyone) think about this issue anyways, as no such fighter exists for the rebellion. They have the x-wing which is supposed to be synonymous with the rebellion, not to memention that the x-wing took down TWO imperial superweapons due to skilled pilots.

Unless FFG is given license to disregard years of expanded universe canon there will NOT be an equivelent fighter. So take the fact that you have a balanced fighter that due to the astromech socket you can get two sets of actions, and the general quality/superiority of rebel (and therefore as the game is) pilots

+1.

Meh, keep the Imperial fighter OP'd. Imperial domination, yo!

Finally someone with the courage to say what they really think!

--

I don't think it would be outside FFGs remit to invent a low production hand built from exotic materials rebel superfighter for their roleplaying game to oppose the imperial superfighter that Totally Games invented for their TIE fighter video game.

Your first mistake was responding, though maybe if everyone stopped feeding it, it would go back under the bridge.

This really isn't the place to have a discussion about how FFG's TIE/D diverges from established Canon. They specifically asked in the Official Playtest Report Guidelines document to focus on ships and vehicles this week and to see if any craft seemed overpowered or underpowered. So rather than wasting our time arguing on the internet, submit meaningful feedback to FFG.

Reason prevailed with the X-Wing's armor situation, so I see no reason why it can't or won't here if everyone participates.

Your first mistake was responding, though maybe if everyone stopped feeding it, it would go back under the bridge.

This really isn't the place to have a discussion about how FFG's TIE/D diverges from established Canon. They specifically asked in the Official Playtest Report Guidelines document to focus on ships and vehicles this week and to see if any craft seemed overpowered or underpowered. So rather than wasting our time arguing on the internet, submit meaningful feedback to FFG.

Reason prevailed with the X-Wing's armor situation, so I see no reason why it can't or won't here if everyone participates.

The whole point of arguing about the TIE Defender is specifically on account of established canon, hence my stated desire for insight as to what FFG had in mind for what the TIE/D should be since it seems wildly divergent from others' expectations such as the aforementioned "Nemesis ship", which is where people in this thread get the "underpowered" impression from.

It's one thing if FFG and players share a "design intent" and then the released stats just don't match that common intent, it's another when they're seemingly going (and thereby players judging "overpowered or underpowered") on very divergent criteria.

Hell, as I noted before, it's why I was cool with the Armor 3 change -- others were comparing the X-wings to Y-wings, I was comparing them to TIE/LNs... and Armor 3 didn't "upset the balance" there at all, so why would I mind Armor 3? (That is, instead of the "superiority fighter vs. fighter-bomber" that everyone else seemed to lean towards or "newer vs. older" that Donovan Morningfire seemed to rely on, I was thinking "TIE/LN Killer".)

Your first mistake was responding, though maybe if everyone stopped feeding it, it would go back under the bridge.

This really isn't the place to have a discussion about how FFG's TIE/D diverges from established Canon. They specifically asked in the Official Playtest Report Guidelines document to focus on ships and vehicles this week and to see if any craft seemed overpowered or underpowered. So rather than wasting our time arguing on the internet, submit meaningful feedback to FFG.

Reason prevailed with the X-Wing's armor situation, so I see no reason why it can't or won't here if everyone participates.

The whole point of arguing about the TIE Defender is specifically on account of established canon, hence my stated desire for insight as to what FFG had in mind for what the TIE/D should be since it seems wildly divergent from others' expectations such as the aforementioned "Nemesis ship", which is where people in this thread get the "underpowered" impression from.

It's one thing if FFG and players share a "design intent" and then the released stats just don't match that common intent, it's another when they're seemingly going (and thereby players judging "overpowered or underpowered") on very divergent criteria.

Hell, as I noted before, it's why I was cool with the Armor 3 change -- others were comparing the X-wings to Y-wings, I was comparing them to TIE/LNs... and Armor 3 didn't "upset the balance" there at all, so why would I mind Armor 3? (That is, instead of the "superiority fighter vs. fighter-bomber" that everyone else seemed to lean towards or "newer vs. older" that Donovan Morningfire seemed to rely on, I was thinking "TIE/LN Killer".)

I think we're on the same page here. People are somewhat confused because the statistics given for the TIE/D don't match our expectations based on what we know about the TIE/D from established canon. I'm one of those people. My comments about "this not being the place" were more related to the fact that this thread was started as flamebait and there's a "Game Mechanics" subforum for this specific type of discussion. Rather than arguing about the TIE/D in a thread that's not really about the TIE/D at all, I think our purposes would be better served by discussing it in a dedicated thread in the Mechanics subforum.

That, and if we really want to influence FFG's eventual statblock for the TIE/D, we should submit feedback with our suggestions.

Or, you could stop pretending that are not an Empire fanboy or that you have any interest in playing rebels...

Or, you could stop pretending that are not an Empire fanboy or that you have any interest in playing rebels...

Way to prove Yoshiyahu wrong!

I think we're on the same page here. People are somewhat confused because the statistics given for the TIE/D don't match our expectations based on what we know about the TIE/D from established canon. I'm one of those people. My comments about "this not being the place" were more related to the fact that this thread was started as flamebait and there's a "Game Mechanics" subforum for this specific type of discussion. Rather than arguing about the TIE/D in a thread that's not really about the TIE/D at all, I think our purposes would be better served by discussing it in a dedicated thread in the Mechanics subforum.

That, and if we really want to influence FFG's eventual statblock for the TIE/D, we should submit feedback with our suggestions.

There's a thread now. Ended up having to edit the OP to make clearer (than at first) that the inquiry is as to design intent... not so much what came out as what was aimed for in the first place!